Before Racing To National Healthcare: Listen

[MaggieMae]

And let us welcome the newest member to the troll crew that is ignorant enough to be worthy of going on the ignore list.... Iriemon
The ignore list keeps growing with a growing number of trolls and idiots:
Bobo the assclown, Chris/Kirkybot, Orange_Juice, Sunni Man, Agitate the Prostate, KMAN, Truth Don't Matter, DevNell, Yukon, Iriemon, and AmericaFirst...
Join the cause and add these posters to your ignore list as well..

Your ignorant signature says it all. (I feel "left" out, however.) Blinders on, cotton in the ears, dissent not allowed on this board. We get it. And you wonder why you've become the new minority.

 

[MaggieMae]

It must be nice going through life believing you and your family will always have the ability to take care of yourselves, never unexpectedly being unemployed, retirement savings wiped out by others just like you who thought only of themselves, a health insurance policy that suddenly denies urgent care because the insurer decides you had a hangnail 10 years ago and so that we a "preexisting" condition to your current problem.

now Maggie according to the discussion i have been having with Nic....Nic said that the powers that be in the National H.C. system will be able to deny you coverage if what you have is too expensive to treat.....now will they also deny coverage if you have a pre-existing condition if this national system thing starts up?

Probably, if it's legitimate. But seeing a doctor for a strained back 10 years ago isn't enough reason to deny back surgery required from a bad fall a week ago, which is the most recent example I've seen.

 

[Gurdari]

Faces of government healthcare:

Faces of Government Healthcare

...nice site, lol.
I read about the Conservatives for patient's rights website the other day, which it seems most of this site's links go to.
Didn't see the parts about what is great about SOCIALIZED (insert scary flame graphic) medicine... or much mention of what is bad about free-market medicine .

I guess if the free-market is working, don't change a thing. Too bad that chorus of dying, frustrated Canadians never seem to want to change our system... not that we don't all hate and despise bureaucratic government run things like the police and education systems.

 

[MaggieMae]

The lack of a single payer healthcare system is killing American business.

We can't compete because every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

This is why I don't understand the opposition to universal health care. It's not just bankrupting families... look what it's doing to General Motors.

Exactly, unionized (GM version of universal) healthcare drove GM near banktuptcy. Why would I want the same for whole country?

Their benefit package was obviously hefty and drove up their costs, but it was the legacy benefits to retirees that became hard to sustain. That said, GM wasn't in major trouble financially, in spite of high employee costs, until management started making poor decisions. The combination is what has driven them to bankruptcy.

 

[MaggieMae]

Faces of government healthcare:

Faces of Government Healthcare

...nice site, lol.
I read about the Conservatives for patient's rights website the other day, which it seems most of this site's links go to.
Didn't see the parts about what is great about SOCIALIZED (insert scary flame graphic) medicine... or much mention of what is bad about free-market medicine .

I guess if the free-market is working, don't change a thing. Too bad that chorus of dying, frustrated Canadians never seem to want to change our system... not that we don't all hate and despise bureaucratic government run things like the police and education systems.

Didn't you mean "never seem to want to change THEIR system"??

 

[ScreamingEagle]

The only way we are ever going to get back to decent health care at reasonable prices is to go back to the free market system where YOU THE CONSUMER control things with cash payments only....just like you go to the grocery store to buy your food. This means getting RID of all the middlemen who are controling and "managing" your health care for you at exhorbitant prices...

Employers = MIDDLEMEN
Insurance carriers = MIDDLEMEN
Government = MIDDLEMEN

Once the middlemen are gone it is between YOU and your DOCTOR or LOCAL CLINIC. Prices will drop as competition for your health dollar is able to flourish without middlemen creating huge bureacracies that cost an arm and a leg.....(literally sometimes)...

The only exception should be health insurance coverage for MAJOR MEDICAL policies which typically cost very little if one buys them while still young and healthy enough. Perhaps that should be a requirement like car insurance is a requirement. Small operations and regular health care should be on a cash basis.....just like buying food or clothing or housing.....the necessities of life....

 

[Nik]

Look, imbecile, I'm not interested in trying to have a serious political debate with a doofus who wants to either 1) pretend he's a fucking hermit, and that that impacts anything, or 2) wants to ridiculously parse issues based on irrelevancies like whether or not you live in the same state I do. I will state this one time, and if you are not able to rise to the correct rung of the evolutionary ladder to discuss it like something more than a chimpanzee in the zoo flinging his feces at the crowd, you may join others of your species on ignore. So take notes, and think about your response hard.

Roads, bridges, police and fire departments are all PUBLIC UTILITIES, of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them. Your healthcare is of no direct and personal use to anyone but you, and YOU are of no direct and personal use to ANYONE. So they are not comparable, and until you and your healthcare become useful directly to me and my life, I have no intention of contributing money as though they are. Got it?

And you're damned right I'm selfish, and fucking proud of it, and certainly not about to hang my head in shame because an even MORE selfish - not to mention ignorant - twit like YOU tries to make me feel bad for keeping what I earned instead of letting him take what he didn't. Try that guilt shit on someone you aren't robbing at the point of the government's gun.

Wow...sorry I missed the nugget from up above. Healthcare can be treated as a public utility...its the healthcare that is the public utility, not the individual. Same goes for roads, police, etc, etc.

Health care can NOT be treated as a public utility, fool. You saying it is - hell, your master in Washington saying it is - doesn't make it so. Health care is an individual need, like food and clothing.

Like, maybe, police protection? Like maybe the individual need to drive to work? Your asinine distinction between public and private is just made up gibberish.

You don't have to give a shit if I get robbed. You give a shit if YOU do. You pay for the police because of that, as do I, and they protect both of us. And by the way, fucknut, I also pay for the police. So you aren't paying for them to protect me. I am.

Just like I would pay for healthcare in case I get sick, just like you would pay for healthcare in case you got sick. Hence we would all pay taxes in case any of us got sick. Voila. The exact same thing as the cops.

Hospitals, and doctors, are also of "of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them." However, your safety is of interest to nobody but yourself. So please do try to explain the difference between healthcare and the cops again?

The existence of hospitals is a public benefit. Paying for your treatment isn't. And yes, my safety IS actually of interest to the rest of the public, for several reasons. You ever try to sell a house in a high crime rate area? But I've never noticed property values going down because the neighbors down the street have cancer.

Umm, so hospitals existing are a public benefit...but them being used isn't? So looking at the pretty buildings benefits us, but paying for them isn't? What? You aren't even making basic sense now.

As for health not being in the public interest...its called a contagious disease, shithead.

And next time, try to avoid assuming asinine shit about my personal life and my own healthcare status. Do try and keep the debate at least somewhat coherent, although I know it must be hard for you.

I didn't assume anything. All the asinine shit I commented on came from your posts. I neither know nor care about your life. What I know is that you want to take money from my pocket, away from my family, to pay for your health care.

I'd like to say this was a nice attempt at being lofty and condescending, but it wasn't.

[/quote]

No, actually you don't know that. I want to take money from your (and my) pockets to pay for the poors healthcare. Because peoples lives>you getting a second car. I have healthcare. I still have a high paying job thats not going to go away anytime soon. I have what is essentially a recession proof job. Yay me. I'm just not one of those assholes who only gives a fuck about themselves. My beliefs aren't so I can do better in life. I really don't need help from the government. But some do, and its those people that I am arguing for.

 

[Nik]

I fully realize that I'm paying for things that other people are using, ass hat. The operative point here is that I don't mind paying for them because I am ALSO using them. And I'm not asking them to pay for something that only I use, as you are. I won't be using your healthcare, and quite frankly, the more you talk, the more of a liability I consider it to keep you alive, anyway. So why the hell should I pay for it?



You have a right to life, which means you have a right not to be killed. It doesn't mean you have a right to have other people sustain your life for you.

No, you won't be using "my" healthcare, dumbshit. But you WILL be using healthcare. I assume that even you have the decent common sense to see a doctor, dentist, and the like.

That's like saying I won't be eating the food in your house, but I do eat food, so that means I should contribute to your groceries.

Yeah, I go to the doctor. I pay for it. I don't go next door and ask my neighbor to pony up because the baby needs his vaccinations.

Right...because once you see a doctor, the doctor disappears and can't be used by anyone else. Analogy fail. Try again?

 

[Nik]

What part of the word "legitimately" did you not understand? Was it the fact that it has more than one syllable? Maybe you LIKE living in a country where the government runs wild and ignores the people, and that's why you blithely encourage it with your apathy. Or maybe you're just too damned stupid to realize what you're doing. I favor the latter explanation.

Ah yes, legitimately. And tell me, dear moron, who decides whether its legitimate or not? I'll tell you, since you seem to be too stupid to know: The Constitution decides, which is what I referenced. Your asinine views on whether its legitimate or not really doesn't matter. So you think its illegitimate? Nobody gives a fuck. What the Constitution says matters. What you decide in your little fantasy land is legitimate or not doesn't.

Oh, Christ, are you really this fucking stupid? How do you find the ON button to even GET on the computer, flatliner?

"The Constitution decides." What, the Constitution is a sentient being now, is it, rather than a piece of sheepskin? The PEOPLE decide what's legitimate, you mouthbreather. "The government rules at the consent of the governed." Ring a bell? The fact that you figured out that what's legitimate is written down apparently didn't extend to figuring out how it got there, or applying it to anything, since you seem to have forgotten to mention that what you want the government to do ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION. That's where my "asinine views" on legitimacy come from. Have someone read it to you sometime. Sorry it's not available in a crayon version.

Learn just a little bit about the US government. 60% of the people can vote for something, and if its Unconstitutional, it fails. So yeah, the Constitution is greater than the people. If enough people want to change the Constitution they can but until they do that, the Constitution wins. And the Constitution isn't sentient, but it does have words on it, and those words have meanings and the meanings trump whatever bullshit you want.

Actually it is in the US Constitution that the government can tax. As for giving it the right to deal with healthcare, its not infringing on anyones rights. As long as the government isn't preventing anyone from doing anything, it can do pretty much whatever it wants.

Nobody gives a fuck? Where do you get THAT little gem? The fact that everyone agrees with you, and there's no debate on the subject? Oh, whoops. I guess there is. So gee, I guess there ARE people who care that you want to wipe your ass on the Constitution. So much for THAT theory.

And the government isn't "ignoring people". 2/3rds of the American public want a government sponsored healthcare plan. What it is doing is ignoring radical fringe elements like you who just assume your views are always in the majority and that you get to decide for everyone else what is legitimate and whats not.

Two-thirds of the American public? Really? And where do you get THAT figure? Out of the same ass you're wiping with the Constitution?

Yes, really.

Pew Research Center: Most Support Health Care Overhaul -- But it’s Not 1993

And thats just for universal healthcare. When you go lesser, to just a public plan...

CR Poll: 66% support a public health care plan

Bang, bitch. Do your research first before spewing next time.

 

[jeffrockit]

aparently RD you have never met an elderly person that has the "GOVT. FUNDED HEALTHCARE"......my parents had it and when both needed care beyond what MEDICARE would cover,in order to get the needed care we were going to have to sell ALL their assets and turn their house over to the Govt.....and then they would cover what they needed.....yea great system....i am sure the elderly are eagerly waiting to turn their assets over to the govt.in return for needed care....

And, wait till the government begins to run out of money for healthcare and they start to ration it. When they decide that a 75 year old man that needs hip replacement will not get it because he is no longer paying into the system, but a 35 year old still has earning potential. The left lives in this utopia like dream world and think that the money supply for all of these programs is limitless. When it becomes a mess, they will be the first to start screaming for something to be done.

Funny you should use the hip replacement example.

Health Care Organizational Ethics: President Obama's Grandmother and the Ethics of Health Care Reform

This same kind of dilemma faces legitimate existing government health care, Medicare in particular. It will always be one of those gray areas that will probably be determined case by case. To project that there will be specific treatments unavailable for certain age groups is a stretch, and it's an example of the hysteria over this subject by the right.

Keep telling yourself that. Nothing hysterical about it, nothing is ever free but that is what the masses believe. The use of the word hysteria and fear and fair are frequently used by the left when the right takes a stand in opposition because most people react to the hyperbole. There will be no way to consistently fund a project on this scale as the money pool is not endless. If you want to trust the government to take care of you, that's up to you. I hold very little trust, especially when to comes to the heath care of me and my family. It is funny to see the left blindly trusting something as important as their health care, to the government, when their guy is in charge. I don't think that most would be arguing for UHC if Bush and Cheney was trying to make it happen. If you think the politicians truly care about the people (both parties), you are being foolish. With the many government corruption examples in so many areas, this will be yet another.
With no competition, the quality in the care will decrease and in the doctors and nurses too. Think about other government run businesses such as the TSA, Social Security office, unemployment and etc. Not exactly speed oriented models which is necessary in many health care cases. This is not hysteria but fact. Why would heath care be run much differently? Just being a realist based on the many gov. run operations.

 

[jeffrockit]

Damned right, Heaven forbid I should be FORCED to contribute to you. I got mine, go get your own, and get over the idea that you and other, greedy strangers like you have any right to take away from the people I actually care about.

What the left doesn't get, and I realize there are exceptions, is that if you keep giving handouts to people, they will have no motivation to work. The whole welfare state just perpetuates more of the same.

The "welfare state" has diminished in the past decade by around 70%. Next?

That is just because they renamed it. You are saying that there is less of the population living off the government now than 10 years ago...riiiiight

 

[Said1]

Faces of government healthcare:

Faces of Government Healthcare

...nice site, lol.
I read about the Conservatives for patient's rights website the other day, which it seems most of this site's links go to.
Didn't see the parts about what is great about SOCIALIZED (insert scary flame graphic) medicine... or much mention of what is bad about free-market medicine .

I guess if the free-market is working, don't change a thing. Too bad that chorus of dying, frustrated Canadians never seem to want to change our system... not that we don't all hate and despise
bureaucratic government run things like the police and education systems.

Who are you kidding? Canadians love government intervention.

 

[Gunny]

What a piece of propoganda.

If you guys were right about this, or the economy, or the war, why are you approaching this problem the same way you approach every problem? Deny there is a problem for as long as you can, do nothing about it when you are in charge, Have prices go up 101% after you get into office, and then lie and scare people into thinking the liberal approach will cause the exact problems your own status quo is guilty of?

Hightower Lowdown | The four Big Lies about universal health care

This debunks all your bullshit.

We want exactly what Senators get. SINGLE PAYER. Choices! No pre existing conditions! Inexpensive! Covers everyone!

We decided a long time ago that education was important. We made it MANDATORY for every kid. This is more important.

Yesterday this guy who sells insurance called the Ed Schultz show crying that this would put 15,000 agents out of work in Dallas alone, or something like that. HA! How's it feel bitches? You didn't mind sending manufacturing jobs overseas. You didn't mind putting truckers out of jobs. Now it is your turn. Go find another fucking job. Maybe you can work for the humain society euthenizing kittens.

You're a moron. Shut up. Your crap doesn't debunk anything, nor does your as-usual, baseless projecting.

 

[Gunny]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

Ignorance at its finest.

 

[Gunny]

Funny... a benefit of employment.... for the likes of the Military, Bush, Clinton, Cheney, Carter, etc

Not exactly the same of just giving it away

But nice try

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

Which means those that pay taxes will be providing it for everyone, whether they pay taxes or not...

Sorry... but you are not OWED a damn thing for your personal care, health, and well being from anyone else on this fucking earth

You're an adult... earn it and pay for it yourself

The government does not exist to be your insurance company.. what next? Government single payer auto insurance?

This is why left wingers just don't get it...

Take care of yourself? Not when I can get some one-size-fits-all mediocrity from clock punchers.

 

[Gunny]

Giving it away? Hey we will be paying taxes to pay for it. Nothing going to be given away. The difference is that there will not be a middle man (insurance companies) taking a cut for doing nothing. All the money will go to medical expenses instead of fat cat corporate CEOs.

Why is it that right wingers love to get screwed by big buisness?

Which means those that pay taxes will be providing it for everyone, whether they pay taxes or not...

Sorry... but you are not OWED a damn thing for your personal care, health, and well being from anyone else on this fucking earth

You're an adult... earn it and pay for it yourself

The government does not exist to be your insurance company.. what next? Government single payer auto insurance?

This is why left wingers just don't get it...

Ah yes, the 'rugged individual' argument. Everybody in this country pays tax. The idea that some don't pay tax is a lie.

I love how the righties are always saying that people who don't pay tax are getting a refund. This is a lie. It's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. It's called FICA and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

The government exists to be what the people decide it should be. If we want to pool our resources to provide health insurance for everyone we can do that.

This is why right wingers just don't get it.

Ah yes, the "I can't wipe my own ass" argument. Not to mention the backwards-ass logic and "you don't understand I know what's best for you argument.

If "we" DON'T want to pool our resources to provide mediocre health care "we" can do THAT.

However, that argument of yours is based on the logical fallacies that a), we actually have a say how our tax dollars are spent and b), that we have any resources at all since our tax dollars are tied up for the next 50 years paying off the government's bailout debts.

The government has fucked our budget up royally; yet, sheeple like you think they will somehow get Nationalized healthcare right? Tell me, what's next on the agenda for nationalization? We already own a car company and an insurance company. We subsidize farmers to NOT grow shit.

Personally, I think the government should own my lawnmower and come cut my yard every damned week. Or at least run behind me with an umbrella and fan to bail me out from the heat.

 

[Nik]

Which means those that pay taxes will be providing it for everyone, whether they pay taxes or not...

Sorry... but you are not OWED a damn thing for your personal care, health, and well being from anyone else on this fucking earth

You're an adult... earn it and pay for it yourself

The government does not exist to be your insurance company.. what next? Government single payer auto insurance?

This is why left wingers just don't get it...

Ah yes, the 'rugged individual' argument. Everybody in this country pays tax. The idea that some don't pay tax is a lie.

I love how the righties are always saying that people who don't pay tax are getting a refund. This is a lie. It's true that some don't pay 'income tax' but those people do pay a tax on their income, it's just not called income tax. It's called FICA and it's paid by most people on the first dollar they make and they pay it on every dollar they make. Everyone pays sales tax. Everyone pays property tax, either directly or indirectly.

The government exists to be what the people decide it should be. If we want to pool our resources to provide health insurance for everyone we can do that.

This is why right wingers just don't get it.

Ah yes, the "I can't wipe my own ass" argument. Not to mention the backwards-ass logic and "you don't understand I know what's best for you argument.

If "we" DON'T want to pool our resources to provide mediocre health care "we" can do THAT.

However, that argument of yours is based on the logical fallacies that a), we actually have a say how our tax dollars are spent and b), that we have any resources at all since our tax dollars are tied up for the next 50 years paying off the government's bailout debts.

The government has fucked our budget up royally; yet, sheeple like you think they will somehow get Nationalized healthcare right? Tell me, what's next on the agenda for nationalization? We already own a car company and an insurance company. We subsidize farmers to NOT grow shit.

Personally, I think the government should own my lawnmower and come cut my yard every damned week. Or at least run behind me with an umbrella and fan to bail me out from the heat.

Nationalized healthcare is CHEAPER than what we currently spend on healthcare. We spend, by far, the most per capita and healthcare and don't even get the best results.

 

[Annie]

another voice of experience:

UnionLeader.com - New Hampshire news, business and sports - Karol Sikora: This health care 'reform' will kill thousands - Tuesday, May. 12, 2009

Karol Sikora: This health care 'reform' will kill thousands

Tuesday, May. 12, 2009

One of the more unproductive elements of President Obama's stimulus bill is the $1.1 billion allotted for "comparative effectiveness research" to assess all new health treatments to determine whether they are cost-effective. It sounds great, but in Britain we have had a similar system since 1999, and it has cost lives and kept the country in a kind of medical time warp.

As a practicing oncologist, I am forced to give patients older, cheaper medicines. The real cost of this penny-pinching is premature death for thousands of patients -- and higher overall health costs than if they had been treated properly: Sick people are expensive....

As the government takes increasing control of the health sector with schemes such as Medicare and SCHIP (State Children's Health-care Insurance Program), it is under pressure to control expenditures. Some American health-policy experts have looked favorably at Britain, which uses its National Institute for Clinical Excellence (NICE) to appraise the cost-benefit of new treatments before they can be used in the public system.

If NICE concludes that a new drug gives insufficient bang for the buck, it will not be available through our public National Health Service, which provides care for the majority of Britons.

There is a good reason NICE has attracted interest from U.S. policymakers: It has proved highly effective at keeping expensive new medicines out of the state formulary. Recent research by Sweden's Karolinska Institute shows that Britain uses far fewer innovative cancer drugs than its European neighbors. Compared to France, Britain only uses a tenth of the drugs marketed in the last two years.

Partly as a result of these restrictions on new medicines, British patients die earlier. In Sweden, 60.3 percent of men and 61.7 percent of women survive a cancer diagnosis. In Britain the figure ranges between 40.2 to 48.1 percent for men and 48 to 54.1 percent for women. We are stuck with Soviet-quality care, in spite of the government massively increasing health spending since 2000 to bring the United Kingdom into line with other European countries....

 

[Annie]

Considering the news yesterday regarding SSI and Medicare, can anyone see a reason this should be rushed through?

How ObamaCare Will Affect Your Doctor - WSJ.com

How ObamaCare Will Affect Your Doctor
Expect longer waits for appointments as physicians get pinched on reimbursements.
By SCOTT GOTTLIEB

At the heart of President Barack Obama's health-care plan is an insurance program funded by taxpayers, administered by Washington, and open to everyone. Modeled on Medicare, this "public option" will soon become the single dominant health plan, which is its political purpose. It will restructure the practice of medicine in the process.

Republicans and Democrats agree that the government's Medicare scheme for compensating doctors is deeply flawed. Yet Mr. Obama's plan for a centrally managed government insurance program exacerbates Medicare's problems by redistributing even more income away from lower-paid primary care providers and misaligning doctors' financial incentives.

Like Medicare, the "public option" will control spending by using its purchasing clout and political leverage to dictate low prices to doctors. (Medicare pays doctors 20% to 30% less than private plans, on average.) While the public option is meant for the uninsured, employers will realize it's easier -- and cheaper -- to move employees into the government plan than continue workplace coverage.

The Lewin Group, a health-care policy research and consulting firm, estimates that enrollment in the public option will reach 131 million people if it's open to everyone and pays Medicare rates, as many expect. Fully two-thirds of the privately insured will move out of or lose coverage. As patients shift to a lower-paying government plan, doctors' incomes will decline by as much as 15% to 20% depending on their specialty....

 

[Bfgrn]

Hey Annie...what are YOUR solutions? Do nothing, or do WHAT?