Before Racing To National Healthcare: Listen

[DiamondDave]

I bet you believe that the average UAW worker makes $75 an hour don't you? That's what Fox and Rush told you so it must be true. The number has been debunked. The fact is that UAW employees in Michigan make almost exactly the same wages and benefits ($47-50/hr) as employees for Honda and Toyota make in the south. The difference is those foreign companies don't have legacy costs... yet.

Colorado Media Matters - KOA's Caldara repeated $75 per hour autoworker falsehood despite GM's statements to the contrary

Learn to tell truth from fiction. It will help you get along in this world.

Listen banana crammer

1st.. I do not listen to Rush or Savage or whatever other ones left wingers spout out about because they are afraid of them...
2nd... Union workers for GM/Ford/etc DO make more with wage and benefits compensation than American workers for Toyota, Nissan, etc
3rd.. Media matters... oh, that is RICH... nah, you're not a left winger

Maybe we should get rid of veterans hospitals. Only about 10% of the vets actually fight. The rest are getting paid for thier service. It was thier choice to join up not mine. If they are dumb enough to hop too just because a moron like Bush says so ..well they should have thought it out better.

Point is that almost everyone contributes to society. Everyone pays some taxes. Everyone born here or those that migrated legally have a dog in the fight.

I submit that you should rethink who you believe the enemy is.

YOU can approach your representatives and vote to do so, since soldiers are indeed Federal Employees

And calling my fellow soldier brothers and sisters dumb... neg rep for that btw.... that's just plain ignorant... what next, cops 'dumb' too?

The enemy... not a term I would use... but those who are for someone else paying for their services, personal needs, etc.. that is someone indeed against the concepts of freedom, liberty, and personal responsibility

 

[Cecilie1200]

No, actually, I don't use your bridges and roads. But you get the benefit of them because other people helped to pay for them. But until you want to pay for those things fully out of your own pocket, or get together some of your fellow citizens to pay for them, you argument about healthcare is meaningless. You are merely another of those selfish individuals who is more than willing to let others pay for things you use, but aren't willing to pay for what others use.

Look, imbecile, I'm not interested in trying to have a serious political debate with a doofus who wants to either 1) pretend he's a fucking hermit, and that that impacts anything, or 2) wants to ridiculously parse issues based on irrelevancies like whether or not you live in the same state I do. I will state this one time, and if you are not able to rise to the correct rung of the evolutionary ladder to discuss it like something more than a chimpanzee in the zoo flinging his feces at the crowd, you may join others of your species on ignore. So take notes, and think about your response hard.

Roads, bridges, police and fire departments are all PUBLIC UTILITIES, of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them. Your healthcare is of no direct and personal use to anyone but you, and YOU are of no direct and personal use to ANYONE. So they are not comparable, and until you and your healthcare become useful directly to me and my life, I have no intention of contributing money as though they are. Got it?

And you're damned right I'm selfish, and fucking proud of it, and certainly not about to hang my head in shame because an even MORE selfish - not to mention ignorant - twit like YOU tries to make me feel bad for keeping what I earned instead of letting him take what he didn't. Try that guilt shit on someone you aren't robbing at the point of the government's gun.

Wow...sorry I missed the nugget from up above. Healthcare can be treated as a public utility...its the healthcare that is the public utility, not the individual. Same goes for roads, police, etc, etc.

Health care can NOT be treated as a public utility, fool. You saying it is - hell, your master in Washington saying it is - doesn't make it so. Health care is an individual need, like food and clothing.

Please explain to me this. I don't give a shit if you get robbed. I don't give a shit if you get murdered. I don't give a shit if you get beaten up. So tell me again why I need to pay for the police to protect your sorry ass, if you can't protect yourself?

You don't have to give a shit if I get robbed. You give a shit if YOU do. You pay for the police because of that, as do I, and they protect both of us. And by the way, fucknut, I also pay for the police. So you aren't paying for them to protect me. I am.

Hospitals, and doctors, are also of "of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them." However, your safety is of interest to nobody but yourself. So please do try to explain the difference between healthcare and the cops again?

The existence of hospitals is a public benefit. Paying for your treatment isn't. And yes, my safety IS actually of interest to the rest of the public, for several reasons. You ever try to sell a house in a high crime rate area? But I've never noticed property values going down because the neighbors down the street have cancer.

And next time, try to avoid assuming asinine shit about my personal life and my own healthcare status. Do try and keep the debate at least somewhat coherent, although I know it must be hard for you.

I didn't assume anything. All the asinine shit I commented on came from your posts. I neither know nor care about your life. What I know is that you want to take money from my pocket, away from my family, to pay for your health care.

I'd like to say this was a nice attempt at being lofty and condescending, but it wasn't.

 

[Cecilie1200]

She is paying for those (although she doesn't realize it). But she is only willing to pay for things she, herself, may use. This is without realizing that everyone else chips in to pay for the things SHE uses, whether we use them or not.

I fully realize that I'm paying for things that other people are using, ass hat. The operative point here is that I don't mind paying for them because I am ALSO using them. And I'm not asking them to pay for something that only I use, as you are. I won't be using your healthcare, and quite frankly, the more you talk, the more of a liability I consider it to keep you alive, anyway. So why the hell should I pay for it?

And? Whether someone is a citizen or not in this country, if they are here legally, they have rights.



You thought wrong, and nobody ever claimed that. Some treatments are just too expensive. But there is no reason for people who have treatable, fairly cheap diseases being not treated because they don't have the money. And then we all get to pay lots and lots when they go into the ER because the longer you wait before treating a disease, the worse it gets.

Thats besides the fact that just because you have money you don't have more of a right to life than anyone else.

You have a right to life, which means you have a right not to be killed. It doesn't mean you have a right to have other people sustain your life for you.

No, you won't be using "my" healthcare, dumbshit. But you WILL be using healthcare. I assume that even you have the decent common sense to see a doctor, dentist, and the like.

That's like saying I won't be eating the food in your house, but I do eat food, so that means I should contribute to your groceries.

Yeah, I go to the doctor. I pay for it. I don't go next door and ask my neighbor to pony up because the baby needs his vaccinations.

 

[Cecilie1200]

Actually, yes, it pretty much can. Probably the only limits would be to fund things that are specifically prohibited by the constitution (funding for torture, and the like....oh wait, but those are actually ok to Republicans ).

This is how the Feds got around a lot of the Constitutional limits on them. They don't mandate that states do something, they just won't give them any money if they don't do it. So, yes, they can do pretty much whatever they like with it.

What part of the word "legitimately" did you not understand? Was it the fact that it has more than one syllable? Maybe you LIKE living in a country where the government runs wild and ignores the people, and that's why you blithely encourage it with your apathy. Or maybe you're just too damned stupid to realize what you're doing. I favor the latter explanation.

Ah yes, legitimately. And tell me, dear moron, who decides whether its legitimate or not? I'll tell you, since you seem to be too stupid to know: The Constitution decides, which is what I referenced. Your asinine views on whether its legitimate or not really doesn't matter. So you think its illegitimate? Nobody gives a fuck. What the Constitution says matters. What you decide in your little fantasy land is legitimate or not doesn't.

Oh, Christ, are you really this fucking stupid? How do you find the ON button to even GET on the computer, flatliner?

"The Constitution decides." What, the Constitution is a sentient being now, is it, rather than a piece of sheepskin? The PEOPLE decide what's legitimate, you mouthbreather. "The government rules at the consent of the governed." Ring a bell? The fact that you figured out that what's legitimate is written down apparently didn't extend to figuring out how it got there, or applying it to anything, since you seem to have forgotten to mention that what you want the government to do ISN'T IN THE CONSTITUTION. That's where my "asinine views" on legitimacy come from. Have someone read it to you sometime. Sorry it's not available in a crayon version.

Nobody gives a fuck? Where do you get THAT little gem? The fact that everyone agrees with you, and there's no debate on the subject? Oh, whoops. I guess there is. So gee, I guess there ARE people who care that you want to wipe your ass on the Constitution. So much for THAT theory.

And the government isn't "ignoring people". 2/3rds of the American public want a government sponsored healthcare plan. What it is doing is ignoring radical fringe elements like you who just assume your views are always in the majority and that you get to decide for everyone else what is legitimate and whats not.

Two-thirds of the American public? Really? And where do you get THAT figure? Out of the same ass you're wiping with the Constitution?

 

[Harry Dresden]

Your statement about permanent residents not having a "right" to free medical care is nonsensical. They don't have a legal right to it, as nobody else does either. But as far as going to a hospital to receive emergency care, actually they do have that right. They also have the same rights as citizens as far as drivers license, welfare, taxes, and any number of other rights and responsibilities that citizens share in this nation. What exactly is your justification for unilaterally claiming that they suddenly don't have a right to free healthcare? Their right is exactly the same as any US citizen. The government can discriminate against permanent residents, but only in a few, very specific ways. How it treats them for entitlements and for healthcare purposes aren't one of those ways.

As for the "fairly cheap disease", I was talking about things like diabetes, or even allergies. Where to treat it, it is very cheap, but left untreated it becomes extremely expensive.

But, of course, you had trouble comprehending. What you are trying to get at is what diseases will a national health insurance not cover because they are too expensive, and who makes the determination. The answer is, I don't know, and the government makes the determination. But right now the answer is, I don't know, and private for-profit businesses are making the determination. If I have to trust my health to one of two different organizations, one of whose goal is to improve my health, and one whose goal is to profit, its pretty obvious which one I should pick, the wailing and gnashing of teeth about governments many failures notwithstanding.

we were not talking about emergency care Nic.....just regular going to a doctor...

and it seems to me Nic if your saying that the Universal HC controllers can pick and choose what diseases it deems "affordable" than nothing has changed....especially for those with the "non-affordable" ones....

If you aren't talking about emergency care, then you are ignorant of the actual situation. Emergency care cannot be denied to you. So what happens to all those uninsured people when their untreated affliction gets worse? Well, they go to the emergency room, where suddenly their disease is much more expensive and much harder to treat. Please explain to me how treating a disease with public money once its become an emergency is somehow ok, but treating a disease before that (which its cheaper, safer, and overall better), is somehow a negative thing.

As for nothing changing, a lot has changed, especially for the millions of people who have diseases that can be treated very cheaply, but they don't have the health insurance to do so, and so cannot get them treated at all. It doesn't cost much to go to a doctor, find out you have diabetes, and start eating better/taking insulin shots. Thats not an expensive treatment. So please tell me whats the justification for denying that treatment to god knows how many uninsured individuals

your getting off course here Nic....we were not talking about someone who has a heart attack or gets hit by a car.....as far as i know non-citizens will be treated at an ER anywhere in the country,by law,ins. or not for an emergency....nat. health care is about you going to a doc.just as if you had a private policy,for a check up or you got something you need checked out....and a NON-citizen should not be a part of this "FREE" health care UNLESS they are paying into the system,if not then they pay out of their own pocket....

and as far as Diabetes being NOT EXPENSIVE.....the test strips are not that cheap,nor is a supply of insulin....some people who have other diseases,their meds are not cheap either.....going for blood work every 3-4 months for diabetics and others, not cheap.....seeing a specialist...not cheap....some of the tests some people need,MRI's CATSCANS etc. not cheap....

and an UNINSURED AMERICAN CITIZEN is IMO different than an UNINSURED ILLEGAL....the American i wont mind going to see a doctor for what ails him....he/she has maybe contributed to the system before being unemployed,and at the very least,they are citizens of the country.... the Illegal i have a problem with he/she going on my tax dollar.....if they want to be a part...contribute to the pot....if not TOUGH SHIT....

 

[HUGGY]

Listen banana crammer

1st.. I do not listen to Rush or Savage or whatever other ones left wingers spout out about because they are afraid of them...
2nd... Union workers for GM/Ford/etc DO make more with wage and benefits compensation than American workers for Toyota, Nissan, etc
3rd.. Media matters... oh, that is RICH... nah, you're not a left winger

Maybe we should get rid of veterans hospitals. Only about 10% of the vets actually fight. The rest are getting paid for thier service. It was thier choice to join up not mine. If they are dumb enough to hop too just because a moron like Bush says so ..well they should have thought it out better.

Point is that almost everyone contributes to society. Everyone pays some taxes. Everyone born here or those that migrated legally have a dog in the fight.

I submit that you should rethink who you believe the enemy is.

YOU can approach your representatives and vote to do so, since soldiers are indeed Federal Employees

And calling my fellow soldier brothers and sisters dumb... neg rep for that btw.... that's just plain ignorant... what next, cops 'dumb' too?

The enemy... not a term I would use... but those who are for someone else paying for their services, personal needs, etc.. that is someone indeed against the concepts of freedom, liberty, and personal responsibility

You pin dick weasle. It was an example and you know it. Fuck your rep. And you showed your true colors ...fuck you.. I don't do pathetic reps. I leave that up to you juvenile ass clowns.

 

[rayboyusmc]

We spend more, we get less and 45 million have no coverage.

Great system.

Let's keep up the high salaries for the Managed Care CEOs and deny care for those who need it.

P.S. I don't hear our elected officials complaining about government coverage.

 

[MaggieMae]

Yours.

Yeah, Heaven Forbid you should be asked to contribute to the health and welfare of the citizens of your country. Since you got yours, fuck no.

Damned right, Heaven forbid I should be FORCED to contribute to you. I got mine, go get your own, and get over the idea that you and other, greedy strangers like you have any right to take away from the people I actually care about.

It must be nice going through life believing you and your family will always have the ability to take care of yourselves, never unexpectedly being unemployed, retirement savings wiped out by others just like you who thought only of themselves, a health insurance policy that suddenly denies urgent care because the insurer decides you had a hangnail 10 years ago and so that we a "preexisting" condition to your current problem.

Ah yes, "compassionate conservatism" speaks to what the spirit of America is all about:
ME ME ME !!

 

[MaggieMae]

Where does it go now? Why do insurance premiums continue to rise on average of 7% annually to the point they are prohibitive just for basics and then with a huge deductible at the outset? Do you people EVER actually look into facts?

Yes, we do. We're looking at the fact that the government has never in its entire existence lowered the cost of anything it was involved in. And the fact that it's not exactly famous for its streamlined efficiency and customer service. AND the fact that once you start a government program, it's damned hard to get rid of if you decide it's a bad idea down the road.

Just curious, why would an intelligent person spend 6-10 years beyond college to specialize in medicine when the outcome is beyond the known?

For one thing, the practice of medicine isn't something that's about to to away. Even during this time of high unemployment, health care continues to be at the top of where good jobs can be found.

It is true, however, that many doc wannabes opt to take their talents where the big bucks are guaranteed, like K Street, rather than dedicating their profession to sick folk. Yuk. How boring and unrewarding is THAT?

 

[DiamondDave]

Yeah, Heaven Forbid you should be asked to contribute to the health and welfare of the citizens of your country. Since you got yours, fuck no.

Damned right, Heaven forbid I should be FORCED to contribute to you. I got mine, go get your own, and get over the idea that you and other, greedy strangers like you have any right to take away from the people I actually care about.

It must be nice going through life believing you and your family will always have the ability to take care of yourselves, never unexpectedly being unemployed, retirement savings wiped out by others just like you who thought only of themselves, a health insurance policy that suddenly denies urgent care because the insurer decides you had a hangnail 10 years ago and so that we a "preexisting" condition to your current problem.

Ah yes, "compassionate conservatism" speaks to what the spirit of America is all about:
ME ME ME !!

We may not always have the ability.. but nothing is certain in life... but what we strive for is the preservation of that freedom to strive to do what we can for ourselves, success or failure

I have been laid off a few times.. had some procedures not covered by insurance... so?? Suck it up and drive on....

 

[MaggieMae]

No...you don't get it. The people voted with the expectation of getting health care for all. Like police for all...fire department for all...education for all. The me first screw everybody else party lost. Cry all you want. When health care passes you don't have to go to the doctor under that umbrella. Just keep paying the insurance vultures until they deny you coverage. Before you fall back onto the national coverage be sure to come back here and beg forgiveness for being such a thoughtless selfish little neo con.

ROFLMNAO...

This nation is not governed on the 'will of the people'... it is NOT a social Democracy... it is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC... one based upon valid and sustainable human rights...

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO THE PRODUCT OF ANOTHER MAN'S LABOR! PERIOD...

And there is NO MEANS OF FUNDING YOUR HEALTHCARE WITHIN THAT IMMUTABLE FACT... UNLESS YOU FUND IT.

Want healthcare INSURANCE... FUND IT YOURSELF...

This nation is not governed on the 'will of the people'

Yes it is. If you want to live in a kingdom I'm sure there are several countries that will accomodate you.

Even a "Constitutional Republic" is only as good as its citizens are able to contribute. PI's has got to be the dumbest of the dumb arguments. No country, whether a Republic, a Democracy, or a Monarchy, can possibly survive and expect the lifestyle we enjoy if its citizens are unhealthy (and uneducated, while we're at it).

 

[Harry Dresden]

It must be nice going through life believing you and your family will always have the ability to take care of yourselves, never unexpectedly being unemployed, retirement savings wiped out by others just like you who thought only of themselves, a health insurance policy that suddenly denies urgent care because the insurer decides you had a hangnail 10 years ago and so that we a "preexisting" condition to your current problem.

now Maggie according to the discussion i have been having with Nic....Nic said that the powers that be in the National H.C. system will be able to deny you coverage if what you have is too expensive to treat.....now will they also deny coverage if you have a pre-existing condition if this national system thing starts up?

 

[MaggieMae]

What facts?....more than half of those millions you whine about are ILLEGAL ALIENS....if we got rid of them our medical costs would plummet.....and we'd go back to having good, reasonably priced, top-of-the-line American health care...

Excuse me...I was clear ...AMERICANS now go fuck yourself sparky.

Clear as mud......you probably mean AMERICANS as in North, Central, and South....

Here are the FACTS dipshit.....
The Online NewsHour: The Uninsured in America | Who Are the Uninsured? -- April 6, 2007 | PBS

As you can see from the charts, non-citizens account for almost half (43% and growing) of the non-insured and that figure is even disputed as being too low....

American citizens -- especially native-born citizens -- are much more likely to have health insurance than immigrants are. In 2005, about 13 percent of native-born citizens lacked health insurance, while 43 percent of noncitizens did, according to the census bureau.

Even that estimate might be too low, according to Hoffman, because it's hard for census-takers to find undocumented workers willing to answer survey questions.

Also some say that 85% of the growth rate of the uninsured is due to illegals....

While all experts agree that noncitizens are less likely to have health insurance than citizens, the jury is still out on the question of how much impact immigrants have on the overall national uninsured rate.

Hoffman said that the idea that the growth of the uninsured rate is being fueled by immigrants is myth. "The numbers just don't support that," she said. "The large majority of the uninsured are U.S. citizens. While immigrants and the undocumented are less likely to have health insurance, there just aren't enough of them to make a difference in the overall rate."

But Fronstin disagreed. He said that his research found that immigration accounted for about 85 percent of the increase in uninsured rates between 1998 and 2003.

Even reducing the number by some unknown percentage of illegals, that still leaves an enormous percentage of people without health insurance, and more falling through the cracks every day and joining the ranks of uninsured. However, illegals will NOT have health insurance subsidized if they cannot afford it, as rumor has it. For one thing, it would require them to come forward and declare that they are not legal citizens, and I don't see that happening.

 

[MaggieMae]

And? Whether someone is a citizen or not in this country, if they are here legally, they have rights.

You thought wrong, and nobody ever claimed that. Some treatments are just too expensive. But there is no reason for people who have treatable, fairly cheap diseases being not treated because they don't have the money. And then we all get to pay lots and lots when they go into the ER because the longer you wait before treating a disease, the worse it gets.

they w. the green cards might be here legally and have rights, but they dont have a right for free medical care.......and as such, they will be counted in with the non-citizens without Ins.

and what constitutes a "FAIRLY CHEAP DISEASE",and who makes that determination?

There are lots of "diseases" that can be controlled by lifestyle changes and medication. Emphysema is controlled by quiting smoking, and if it has progressed, an oxygen regimen.

 

[Ame®icano]

The lack of a single payer healthcare system is killing American business.

We can't compete because every other Western democracy has a single payer system, and they pay HALF per capita what we pay for healthcare.

This is why I don't understand the opposition to universal health care. It's not just bankrupting families... look what it's doing to General Motors.

Exactly, unionized (GM version of universal) healthcare drove GM near banktuptcy. Why would I want the same for whole country?

 

[MaggieMae]

ROFLMNAO...

This nation is not governed on the 'will of the people'... it is NOT a social Democracy... it is a CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC... one based upon valid and sustainable human rights...

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO THE PRODUCT OF ANOTHER MAN'S LABOR! PERIOD...

And there is NO MEANS OF FUNDING YOUR HEALTHCARE WITHIN THAT IMMUTABLE FACT... UNLESS YOU FUND IT.

Want healthcare INSURANCE... FUND IT YOURSELF...

Actually the government has the right to tax the people, and can spend that on whatever it damn well pleases. So yes the government can fund things with other peoples labor. Don't like it? Tough shit. But thats the way it is.

Actually, while the government has the right to tax the people, it does NOT have the right to spend it on whatever it damned well pleases. So no, the government cannot LEGITIMATELY fund things with other people's labor. It simply gets away with doing so illegitimately because uneducated ignoramuses like you sit around, prattling away as though you know something instead of actually knowing something.

According to your logic, the U.S. government has been operating unconstitutionally forever. What?

Section 8 of the Constitution states:
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay th debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare...

You may be confused with Section 9 which states:
No money shall be drawn from the treasury but in consequence of appropriations made by law.

The 16th Amendment instituted the tax on income.
The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the states and without regard to any census or enumeration.

 

[MaggieMae]

Nah... the union labor rates at 2X what other autoworkers are paid by companies in the US have NOTHING to do with it.... or the other outrageous parts of unionized labor contracts?? Or nothing to do with other faulty design and business practices... It must be ALL health care

Not to mention that we, with our health care system have the most advanced procedures and more advances of ANY medical system in the world...

Reforming health care so that more types of different groups can get group rates... fine... reforming frivolous lawsuits so that doctors and hospitals do not have to pass on the costs of HUGE malpractice insurance to patients... Fine....

But single payer government provided healthcare is NOT the answer

Awesome...we have the most advances, just nobody can afford to use them.

Ah, childishly simplistic generalizations. Can't have a good liberal viewpoint without 'em.

Statistics are posted everywhere, even here. Since you and your ilk refuse to accept the facts, people tire of providing you with them.

 

[MaggieMae]

No, actually, I don't use your bridges and roads. But you get the benefit of them because other people helped to pay for them. But until you want to pay for those things fully out of your own pocket, or get together some of your fellow citizens to pay for them, you argument about healthcare is meaningless. You are merely another of those selfish individuals who is more than willing to let others pay for things you use, but aren't willing to pay for what others use.

Look, imbecile, I'm not interested in trying to have a serious political debate with a doofus who wants to either 1) pretend he's a fucking hermit, and that that impacts anything, or 2) wants to ridiculously parse issues based on irrelevancies like whether or not you live in the same state I do. I will state this one time, and if you are not able to rise to the correct rung of the evolutionary ladder to discuss it like something more than a chimpanzee in the zoo flinging his feces at the crowd, you may join others of your species on ignore. So take notes, and think about your response hard.

Roads, bridges, police and fire departments are all PUBLIC UTILITIES, of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them. Your healthcare is of no direct and personal use to anyone but you, and YOU are of no direct and personal use to ANYONE. So they are not comparable, and until you and your healthcare become useful directly to me and my life, I have no intention of contributing money as though they are. Got it?

And you're damned right I'm selfish, and fucking proud of it, and certainly not about to hang my head in shame because an even MORE selfish - not to mention ignorant - twit like YOU tries to make me feel bad for keeping what I earned instead of letting him take what he didn't. Try that guilt shit on someone you aren't robbing at the point of the government's gun.

Wow...sorry I missed the nugget from up above. Healthcare can be treated as a public utility...its the healthcare that is the public utility, not the individual. Same goes for roads, police, etc, etc.

Please explain to me this. I don't give a shit if you get robbed. I don't give a shit if you get murdered. I don't give a shit if you get beaten up. So tell me again why I need to pay for the police to protect your sorry ass, if you can't protect yourself?

Hospitals, and doctors, are also of "of direct and personal use and benefit to the people who pay for them." However, your safety is of interest to nobody but yourself. So please do try to explain the difference between healthcare and the cops again?

And next time, try to avoid assuming asinine shit about my personal life and my own healthcare status. Do try and keep the debate at least somewhat coherent, although I know it must be hard for you.

You're GOOD, Nik -- stick around.

 

[MaggieMae]

Dick Cheney, George Bush, John Boehner, your parents, my parents, and retired military vets are all on taxpayer funded public healthcare. And I haven't heard them complaining about it.


why don't we ask them how they like it, rather than rely on the opinons of a rightwing blog author?

aparently RD you have never met an elderly person that has the "GOVT. FUNDED HEALTHCARE"......my parents had it and when both needed care beyond what MEDICARE would cover,in order to get the needed care we were going to have to sell ALL their assets and turn their house over to the Govt.....and then they would cover what they needed.....yea great system....i am sure the elderly are eagerly waiting to turn their assets over to the govt.in return for needed care....

And, wait till the government begins to run out of money for healthcare and they start to ration it. When they decide that a 75 year old man that needs hip replacement will not get it because he is no longer paying into the system, but a 35 year old still has earning potential. The left lives in this utopia like dream world and think that the money supply for all of these programs is limitless. When it becomes a mess, they will be the first to start screaming for something to be done.

Funny you should use the hip replacement example.

Health Care Organizational Ethics: President Obama's Grandmother and the Ethics of Health Care Reform

This same kind of dilemma faces legitimate existing government health care, Medicare in particular. It will always be one of those gray areas that will probably be determined case by case. To project that there will be specific treatments unavailable for certain age groups is a stretch, and it's an example of the hysteria over this subject by the right.

 

[MaggieMae]

Yeah, Heaven Forbid you should be asked to contribute to the health and welfare of the citizens of your country. Since you got yours, fuck no.

Damned right, Heaven forbid I should be FORCED to contribute to you. I got mine, go get your own, and get over the idea that you and other, greedy strangers like you have any right to take away from the people I actually care about.

What the left doesn't get, and I realize there are exceptions, is that if you keep giving handouts to people, they will have no motivation to work. The whole welfare state just perpetuates more of the same.

The "welfare state" has diminished in the past decade by around 70%. Next?