Discriminating against criminals is now illegal

[Immanuel]

Taking a plea does not pad the conviction rate of the prosecutor. Only a conviction can do that. Convictions mean a trial. Pleas do reduce overcrowding on a court calendar. When a plea deal is reached, both sides accept that the defendant has committed worse crimes than the one they plead to. They just agreed to something that would get this dangerous scumbag off the streets for at least a little while. Everyone comes out a winner. The criminal feels like he got away with murder when it's plead down to manslaughter, the prosecutor closes the file and the defense attorney feels like he got his client off. Which he did.

When a prosecutor wants to pad his or her resume with convictions they don't plead. They take everything to trial. Defense attorneys can tell which prosecutor is up for promotion. They won't deal on anything.

It is popular to think that the prisons are filled with innocent people who were guilty of nothing more than walking down the street. That's not true. The prisons are filled with unbelievably bad people.

I was going to take your word for it, then decided to look it up. According to findlaw.com you are incorrect.

Plea Bargains and Judicial Economy - FindLaw

Plea bargains also result in convictions, and prosecutors are measured by their conviction rate. Most prosecutors would rather spend a week negotiating a plea for a lesser conviction than spend a year to achieve a greater conviction. They can still tout their conviction rate, and claim to be "tough on crime", while doing it in a much more efficient manner.

Immie

 

[Immanuel]

99% of the time they are guilty of worse crimes than the one they were convicted of.

Ever been accused of a crime you did not commit?

Your statement gives no comfort to those of us who have. Nor do I buy your percentage. I would agree with a statement such as "most of the time", but no way do I think it is anywhere near 99%.

Immie

The man who carjacked me wanted to plead guilty to a crime he did not commit. The defense attorney and prosecutor wanted the jacker to plead guilty to simple car theft. A crime he did not commit. Rather than armed carjacking, a crime he did commit. Had I not raised such a stink, the scum would have gone around saying that he was no car thief. He was innocent. Had I not pressed so hard to take it to trial, that's exactly what would have happened.

For the record, I never said everyone accused is innocent or even the majority of those accused.

Immie

 

[Katzndogz]

I was actually thinking of successful verdict rates. That's what appears on attorney resumes.

If someone wants to give an ex con a second chance, they should be allowed to do so. AND, they should be responsible for all crimes committed while the criminal is employed by them. If they don't want to hire a criminal, there should be no penalty, nor any law forcing them to do so.

That's the way to handle the issue.

 

[Immanuel]

I was actually thinking of successful verdict rates. That's what appears on attorney resumes.

If someone wants to give an ex con a second chance, they should be allowed to do so. AND, they should be responsible for all crimes committed while the criminal is employed by them. If they don't want to hire a criminal, there should be no penalty, nor any law forcing them to do so.

That's the way to handle the issue.

In that we both agree!

See my earlier post about hiring an embezzler.

Immie

 

[Katzndogz]

I was actually thinking of successful verdict rates. That's what appears on attorney resumes.

If someone wants to give an ex con a second chance, they should be allowed to do so. AND, they should be responsible for all crimes committed while the criminal is employed by them. If they don't want to hire a criminal, there should be no penalty, nor any law forcing them to do so.

That's the way to handle the issue.

In that we both agree!

See my earlier post about hiring an embezzler.

Immie

Glad we both agree.

 

[Wry Catcher]

They are claiming the scope of the background checks are inherently discriminatory because, in the case of BMW, they don't consider the nature of the crime or when it was committed.

Same can be said of govt laws banning anyone with a felony from having a gun. Most felonies are minor drug crimes that have nothing to do with guns or even violence. Similarly with denying someone a cashier's job at Dollar General because of some mickey mouse "felony".

The idiot america has been brainwashed into thinking all felonies are monstrous crimes!!

This may be one of the dumbest comments on record: "Most felonies are minor drug crimes".

While some questions are forbidden in an application or interviews there is no restriction in asking a prospect, "Have you ever been arrested"? My HR experience was as a manger in LE and we could get everything (FBI rap sheet, CII [CA criminal Records], Local FI [field interview] cards from any City/town/county in the state, CDL record [driving records], DD-214, Credit reports, civil judgments, including divorce records). We also required a polygraph and psychological evaluations + personal interviews; in house interviews and ones by outside LE agencies, all of which were 3 member panels representing the demographics of the community.

Even with all of this we were able to comply with the Consent Decree** (for the uninformed our county agreed to recruit women and from the minority communities to make our agency's population reflect the demographics of the community). For you racists let me assure you we found many Black Men and Women both qualified and capable of doing the job. Yet of all who apply, and that includes Whites as well as all colors of the rainbow, only 2 of 100 candidates survive the background check and the probationary period to become permanent Law Enforcement Professionals.

**Hiring authority agrees to implement an Affirmative Action Program.

 

[Katzndogz]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

 

[Skull Pilot]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

But a background check can be required. I was asked straight out if I had ever been convicted of a felony when I got my first job in financial services so it seems you can ask.

 

[The Rabbi]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

But a background check can be required. I was asked straight out if I had ever been convicted of a felony when I got my first job in financial services so it seems you can ask.

I would be in violation of the law if I did not determine that an employee was not a felon or prohibited from owning guns before I hired him.

 

[Katzndogz]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

But a background check can be required. I was asked straight out if I had ever been convicted of a felony when I got my first job in financial services so it seems you can ask.

They can ask. Just not legally. I don't know how long ago your interview was, if it was recent, you had a case against the prospective employer.

 

[Katzndogz]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

But a background check can be required. I was asked straight out if I had ever been convicted of a felony when I got my first job in financial services so it seems you can ask.

I would be in violation of the law if I did not determine that an employee was not a felon or prohibited from owning guns before I hired him.

That's why you don't ask. You do a background check instead.

 

[Spoonman]

We've lost our minds at this point. A company is screening potential employees for criminal records because people with criminal records represent a liability. And the Obama Administration is now suing because, ta da, most of the people getting screened out are blacks.
EEOC sues over criminal background checks at Dollar General | Nashville City Paper

It's getting so the only people we can convict these days are the innocent.

 

[Skull Pilot]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

But a background check can be required. I was asked straight out if I had ever been convicted of a felony when I got my first job in financial services so it seems you can ask.

They can ask. Just not legally. I don't know how long ago your interview was, if it was recent, you had a case against the prospective employer.

It is legal because no felon can be licensed to sell securities or insurance for that matter.

I had to answer the question on the application: "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?"

 

[gallantwarrior]

If someone did not want to be discriminated against for being a convicted felon they could always decide not to be a criminal in the first place.

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

I know if I were innocent as charged, I would fight tooth and nail.

Are any of you aware of any type of work rehabilitation programs that help train and then re-integrate ex-cons back into the workplace? I understand that not every one will be qualified for every job. Some types of crimes may disqualify applicants from certain types of high security jobs, or jobs directly related to the crime they were convicted of, such as embezzlers not being desirable bank employees; or child molesters being unsuitable as day care workers or school janitors.
One of the problems with a lot of potential workers in this country is their over-inflated sense of value. Face it, a farm laborer is not as valued as a doctor. (Lawyers are far over-valued, IMHO, but it is what it is.) Too many people, including ex-cons, refuse to accept employment they consider "beneath" them, or that doesn't pay what they think they should receive. I know, now comes the objection about a "living wage". Again, people (Americans specifically) have learned to live way beyond their means and the easy credit available is one of the major ills killing this country...again, different discussion.

 

[Wry Catcher]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

As I posted, the question is on all Government Applications, generally in this manner: Have you ever been arrested or paid a traffic fine of XXX? One of my sons works for UPS and that question along with his driving record were required for his application to be accepted too. The same general question was asked on all applications he submitted during his search for employment.

 

[gallantwarrior]

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

They plead guilty to a lesser charge to avoid trial on the greater. Typically they do this because they are guilty as hell. Given how hard it is to arrest, try, convict and sentence someone in this country it is a lead pipe cinch that the person is guilty of a felony.

Hoist on our own petard with the difficulty of trying and convicting a perp. I'd like to see an overhaul of the court system with a lot more of the specious, obviously frivolous lawsuits never seeing the dock. People sue for the lest little bullshit thing because filing lawsuits seems to be the new American lottery system.

 

[Wry Catcher]

If someone did not want to be discriminated against for being a convicted felon they could always decide not to be a criminal in the first place.

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

That statistic (95%) maybe true, but the primary reason is to cut cost, not to inflate stats for the DA's office. In felony matters, the plea may only be reduced by allowing a Defendant to plead to a lesser included offense (Grand Theft Person instead of Robbery, for example) or to plead to lesser counts and/or less time in custody as you noted.

 

[gallantwarrior]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

Where I work, the employer does not have to ask those questions. The badging authority does it all for them. To get a security badge that allows access to the AOA (Airport Operations Area), you have to answer a slew of questions about your criminal background. And if you forget to list a parking ticket you got 20 years ago, they will get you for lying on your application. Having a prior doesn't always preclude issue of the security badge, but you may have to jump through some interesting legal hoops to clear your "record" with this agency. I sometimes wonder how all the foreigners get their security badges...

 

[Wry Catcher]

No an employer cannot ask if someone has ever been arrested. They can't even ask if someone has been convicted.

Common Interview Questions: What You Can Ask and When It Is Legal | Monster.com

Criminal record

Interview Question You Can Ask: If security clearance is necessary, can this be achieved?

Interview Question You Cannot Ask: Have you ever been arrested, convicted, or spent time in jail prior to employment?

What I always asked was "Are you bondable?"

Where I work, the employer does not have to ask those questions. The badging authority does it all for them. To get a security badge that allows access to the AOA (Airport Operations Area), you have to answer a slew of questions about your criminal background. And if you forget to list a parking ticket you got 20 years ago, they will get you for lying on your application. Having a prior doesn't always preclude issue of the security badge, but you may have to jump through some interesting legal hoops to clear your "record" with this agency. I sometimes wonder how all the foreigners get their security badges...

In LE a lie is a 'capital crime', i.e. Mandatory Termination.

 

[Katzndogz]

That assumes everyone convicted is guilty of the crime they were accused of which is not always the case.

Immie

Most people assume that those convicted of felonies were tried and found guilty by a jury of their peers. Not True. About 95 percent of all felony convictions in the United States are the result of plea bargains. Plea bargains are just a way of increasing conviction rates for the prosecution and reducing the load on the court system.

The way plea bargains were suppose to work and the way they actually work are quite different. The idea of the plea bargain was to keep cases of obvious guilt out of court by offering less jail time to the defendant if he pleads guilty to a lessor charge. In reality, it works quite different. The defendant is threatened with a number of charges that would add up to a lot of jail time. Then he's offered less jail time if he pleads guilty to a lesser charge. The defendant, 95% of the time will go for the plea bargain rather going to trial with a public defender who spends most of his time negotiating plea deals rather actually going to court.

So when the prisoner says he's innocent of the crime he was convicted, he certainly may be telling the truth. In the eyes of the prisoner, the justice system is a sham and the likelihood that he will strike back is quite high. So when he's released in less than 3 years and he can't get a job, he feels justified in returning to crime.

Faqs | The Plea | FRONTLINE | PBS

I know if I were innocent as charged, I would fight tooth and nail.

Are any of you aware of any type of work rehabilitation programs that help train and then re-integrate ex-cons back into the workplace? I understand that not every one will be qualified for every job. Some types of crimes may disqualify applicants from certain types of high security jobs, or jobs directly related to the crime they were convicted of, such as embezzlers not being desirable bank employees; or child molesters being unsuitable as day care workers or school janitors.
One of the problems with a lot of potential workers in this country is their over-inflated sense of value. Face it, a farm laborer is not as valued as a doctor. (Lawyers are far over-valued, IMHO, but it is what it is.) Too many people, including ex-cons, refuse to accept employment they consider "beneath" them, or that doesn't pay what they think they should receive. I know, now comes the objection about a "living wage". Again, people (Americans specifically) have learned to live way beyond their means and the easy credit available is one of the major ills killing this country...again, different discussion.

There are tons of programs for ex cons. Ex cons are trained in welding, house painting and solar panel installation. Although I would not want an ex con at my home or business installing solar panels. Neither would I want one in my living room painting the walls.