Zone1 Do Christians Proselytize out of “Love” - or Arrogance?

[irosie91]

John Hyrcanus forcibly converted them to Judaism. They were descended from Esau.

uhm-----correctly circumcised----none of that
ragged edges stuff. WHO KNOWS? Maybe
King Salman will initiate a circ. revision program
in Saudi arabia

 

[Lisa558]

twin brother of Jacob-----FAMILY

Also, Ramses II was a descendant of Esau. So ironically, the descendants of Jacob became the slaves to the descendant of his twin brother.

 

[irosie91]

Also, Ramses II was a descendant of Esau. So ironically, the descendants of Jacob became the slaves to the descendant of his twin brother.

Ramses? SHEEEEESH -----yul brenner too?

 

[BS Filter]

absolutely-----as do all credible biblical
scholars

Show me the Scripture.

 

[irosie91]

Show me the Scripture.

it's easy. READ THE BOOKS----both of them---
and a bit of talmud and the history of THOSE
DAYS----that would include JOSEPHUS. I is a
simple short left handed girl (or was---now old
lady) Just thru reading I SUDDENLY CONCLUDED--
OH GEE---JESUS WAS A PHARISEE. Just about
everything he preached was either from the talmud
or HILLEL. Well---Hillel was the talmud
personified. ----then I discovered that lots of
biblical scholars came to the same conclusion
that had hit my adolescent mind. Your problem is
that most sunday school teachers are clueless

 

[BS Filter]

it's easy. READ THE BOOKS----both of them---
and a bit of talmud and the history of THOSE
DAYS----that would include JOSEPHUS. I is a
simple short left handed girl (or was---now old
lady) Just thru reading I SUDDENLY CONCLUDED--
OH GEE---JESUS WAS A PHARISEE. Just about
everything he preached was either from the talmud
or HILLEL. Well---Hillel was the talmud
personified. ----then I discovered that lots of
biblical scholars came to the same conclusion
that had hit my adolescent mind. Your problem is
that most sunday school teachers are clueless

That isn't Scripture. Show me in Scripture.

 

[irosie91]

That isn't Scripture. Show me in Scripture.

"SCRIPTURE" ??? is the NT the only writing
you recognize? no wonder you are confused.
For me "SCRIPTURE" means ancient writings--like
even the RAMAYANA. By the time Jesus was born
whole volumes of the talmud were already in
existence---MOST OF THEM and he quoted them
LEFT AND RIGHT----especially the talmudist
HILLEL who was almost his contemporary --
(died in Jerusalem about the same time Jesus
is said to have been born) Hillel was a PHARISEE
fave------Jesus quotes him chapter and verse.
The "cast the first stone..." story was HILLEL from
top to bottom

 

[Lisa558]

"SCRIPTURE" ??? is the NT the only writing
you recognize? no wonder you are confused.
For me "SCRIPTURE" means ancient writings--like
even the RAMAYANA. By the time Jesus was born
whole volumes of the talmud were already in
existence---MOST OF THEM and he quoted them
LEFT AND RIGHT----especially the talmudist
HILLEL who was almost his contemporary --
(died in Jerusalem about the same time Jesus
is said to have been born) Hillel was a PHARISEE
fave------Jesus quotes him chapter and verse.
The "cast the first stone..." story was HILLEL from
top to bottom

Also “do unto others” - straight from Hillel.

 

[BS Filter]

"SCRIPTURE" ??? is the NT the only writing
you recognize? no wonder you are confused.
For me "SCRIPTURE" means ancient writings--like
even the RAMAYANA. By the time Jesus was born
whole volumes of the talmud were already in
existence---MOST OF THEM and he quoted them
LEFT AND RIGHT----especially the talmudist
HILLEL who was almost his contemporary --
(died in Jerusalem about the same time Jesus
is said to have been born) Hillel was a PHARISEE
fave------Jesus quotes him chapter and verse.
The "cast the first stone..." story was HILLEL from
top to bottom

Yes, Scripture is the only authority I use. I'm a Christian. How can you claim to be a Bible scholar if you use other books?

 

[irosie91]

Yes, Scripture is the only authority I use. I'm a Christian. How can you claim to be a Bible scholar if you use other books?

"other books" ? something wrong with "other
books"? I do not claim to be a bible scholar---
for that I would have to be fluent in Hebrew,
aramaic and greek (Latin too?) How can you be
a bit learned without looking at OTHER BOOKS?
BTW how do you define "scripture"?

 

[buttercup]

Having been on the receiving end of Evangelical Christians‘ relentless attempts to get me to abandon my religion (Judaism), I have often heard them say they do it out of love to “share the Truth.” The attempt to convert usually escalates to dire warnings of the hell that awaits and how angry G-d is with Jews.

So is this really love? There are numerous religions in the world, with the majority of people not believing in Jesus, and one‘s religious beliefs are as much the truth to them as Christians beliefs are to Christians.

In this article, it explains how force-feeding one’s religious beliefs onto others, with the insistence that their way and only their way is the path to G-d, is both arrogant and disrespectful. I hope that those who have been aggressively proselytizing will give it some thought.

To Those Proselytizing Out Of Love: You Aren’t

I have something to say to those who are trying to convert me to their religion because they say they love me: that’s not love. That’s arrogance, disrespect, fear, ego, and a lot more.

www.patheos.com

There's so much to be said here... I don't know where to begin. But I'll try.

1. The question itself doesn't make sense because it implies that all Christians have the same motive, which is absurd considering that there are nearly 3 billion Christians in this world, of varying mindsets and differing levels of spiritual maturity.
   
   If you would have asked: "What does Christianity teach in regard to evangelism?" that would have been reasonable and fair, because what's important is what Christianity actually teaches...not what people who disobey God do. Jesus made it clear that those who don't do God's will and whose hearts are far from God are not His people.
   
   
2. There is a big difference between sharing the Gospel, and forcing someone to listen after they have already made it clear that they want to be left alone. The former is a command, as others on this thread have already pointed out. The latter goes against the very words of Jesus and the heart of God.
   
   God Himself is a gentleman and does not force Himself on anyone... so obviously He would not teach His followers to do something that goes against His nature.
   
   Jesus said, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet." (Matthew 10:14)
   
   The bible also says to do everything in love. (1 Corinthians 16:14)
   
   So if someone who claims to be a Christian rudely harasses a non-Christian or is forceful in their attempt to evangelize, then clearly that person is going against Jesus' teachings and the nature of God.
   
   
3. I understand that many non-Christians consider the teaching that there is only one way to God to be arrogant.
   But here's the thing. That is what JESUS stated. Those are HIS words. (John 14:6) So it's up to each of us to either believe it, or disbelieve it.
   
   If Jesus is God in the flesh and the Messiah (which I firmly believe is true, for numerous reasons) then it's not arrogant for Him to simply state the truth.
   
   The very nature of truth is exclusive. 2+2=4....not 5, or 6. And truth does not depend on what we believe or disbelieve. It is what it is. The idea that all religions lead to the same destination is actually illogical... when most of those religions blatantly contradict each other when it comes to salvation. I'm not saying that is what you believe, I'm just saying that that view goes against the law of non-contradiction, it is illogical and self-defeating.
   
   So if someone sincerely believes that Jesus is God, the Savior of the world, and the only way to salvation... then I don't think it is arrogant to simply say that, as long as it is done in love and not in a way that goes against the teachings of Jesus.
   
   And again, Jesus commanded us to share the Gospel, far and wide, to the farthest corners of the world. (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:15, Acts 1:8, etc.)

I'll leave it at that for now, so this won't post won't be too long.

 

[buttercup]

irosie91 - what did I say that was untrue or worthy of a thumbs down, in your view?

 

[surada]

uhm-----correctly circumcised----none of that
ragged edges stuff. WHO KNOWS? Maybe
King Salman will initiate a circ. revision program
in Saudi arabia

Honestly, I'm not an expert on men's penises.

 

[irosie91]

Honestly, I'm not an expert on men's penises.

Did I suggest you are? The information which
exists even in the "annals of saudi arabian medicine" is that unlike the Jewish style of
male circumcision----the muslim style does not
confer a level of protection against the transmission of the HIV virus. A complete
medical physical examination by a doctor
includes inspection of the penis---shaft and
glans. It's ok-----muslims can learn

 

[surada]

Did I suggest you are? The information which
exists even in the "annals of saudi arabian medicine" is that unlike the Jewish style of
male circumcision----the muslim style does not
confer a level of protection against the transmission of the HIV virus. A complete
medical physical examination by a doctor
includes inspection of the penis---shaft and
glans. It's ok-----muslims can learn

I knew almost all the early doctors in Arabia.

 

[irosie91]

irosie91 - what did I say that was untrue or worthy of a thumbs down, in your view?

you evince a remarkable level of ignorance
regarding the history of proselytizing and
its social and legal effects world wide. I will resort to neutral ground-----do you have any idea why India ----in a very desultory manner, outlaws active proselytizing? Another issue---do you see anything negative (or positive) about proselytizing children?
Have you ever come across the concept of
"forced conversion" or economically
driven conversion?

 

[irosie91]

I knew almost all the early doctors in Arabia.

what is an "early doctor"? Did any of those
"early doctors" discuss circumcision with you?
I have known ONLY two doctors from Saudi
Arabia and never discussed circumcision with
either

 

[surada]

what is an "early doctor"? Did any of those
"early doctors" discuss circumcision with you?
I have known ONLY two doctors from Saudi
Arabia and never discussed circumcision with
either

Guys who went over in the 1940s and early 50s did a lot of outreach because of the agreement between ibn Saud and ARAMCO.. and they all published.

 

[buttercup]

you evince a remarkable level of ignorance
regarding the history of proselytizing and
its social and legal effects world wide. I will resort to neutral ground-----do you have any idea why India ----in a very desultory manner, outlaws active proselytizing? Another issue---do you see anything negative (or positive) about proselytizing children?
Have you ever come across the concept of
"forced conversion" or economically
driven conversion?

You completely missed the point. I'll repeat it. Anyone who forces others to convert, or acts in a rude or violent way is going directly against the teachings of Jesus. Jesus Himself said that people who claim to follow Him but whose hearts are far from Him and go against God's will and are not His people. They are just people who take on the name of christian, yet act in a way that is in direct opposition to God's will.

So let me ask you again. What did I say that was untrue?

 

[Lisa558]

There's so much to be said here... I don't know where to begin. But I'll try.

1. The question itself doesn't make sense because it implies that all Christians have the same motive, which is absurd considering that there are nearly 3 billion Christians in this world, of varying mindsets and differing levels of spiritual maturity.
   
   If you would have asked: "What does Christianity teach in regard to evangelism?" that would have been reasonable and fair, because what's important is what Christianity actually teaches...not what people who disobey God do. Jesus made it clear that those who don't do God's will and whose hearts are far from God are not His people.
   
   
2. There is a big difference between sharing the Gospel, and forcing someone to listen after they have already made it clear that they want to be left alone. The former is a command, as others on this thread have already pointed out. The latter goes against the very words of Jesus and the heart of God.
   
   God Himself is a gentleman and does not force Himself on anyone... so obviously He would not teach His followers to do something that goes against His nature.
   
   Jesus said, "If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet." (Matthew 10:14)
   
   The bible also says to do everything in love. (1 Corinthians 16:14)
   
   So if someone who claims to be a Christian rudely harasses a non-Christian or is forceful in their attempt to evangelize, then clearly that person is going against Jesus' teachings and the nature of God.
   
   
3. I understand that many non-Christians consider the teaching that there is only one way to God to be arrogant.
   But here's the thing. That is what JESUS stated. Those are HIS words. (John 14:6) So it's up to each of us to either believe it, or disbelieve it.
   
   If Jesus is God in the flesh and the Messiah (which I firmly believe is true, for numerous reasons) then it's not arrogant for Him to simply state the truth.
   
   The very nature of truth is exclusive. 2+2=4....not 5, or 6. And truth does not depend on what we believe or disbelieve. It is what it is. The idea that all religions lead to the same destination is actually illogical... when most of those religions blatantly contradict each other when it comes to salvation. I'm not saying that is what you believe, I'm just saying that that view goes against the law of non-contradiction, it is illogical and self-defeating.
   
   So if someone sincerely believes that Jesus is God, the Savior of the world, and the only way to salvation... then I don't think it is arrogant to simply say that, as long as it is done in love and not in a way that goes against the teachings of Jesus.
   
   And again, Jesus commanded us to share the Gospel, far and wide, to the farthest corners of the world. (Matthew 28:19-20, Mark 16:15, Acts 1:8, etc.)

I'll leave it at that for now, so this won't post won't be too long.

I’ve tried to break your response down into sections, but the formatting isn’t working right, so I’ll just have to capture the basics below:

1. I’m sorry you don’t like the way I framed my question, but of course it’s coming from my experience with Evangelical Christians who have harassed me, warned me that G-d is angry with Jews and will punish us if we don’t convert, send me sermons from their church in which the pastor vilifies Jews - and then tell me they are doing all that out of “love.” It sure doesn’t feel that way. It comes across as blatant disapproval of my religion, which is closely aligned with my self-identity.

2. I’m glad you agree that harassing or otherwise being overly aggressive is not what Jesus would have wanted, and that Christians who behave that way are not following Jesus’ teachings.

3. You said “IF” Jesus is G-d in the flesh, then it’s not arrogant for him (I’m assuming you mean the Christian) to simply state the truth. But that’s a big IF. I know you believe he is. But the people you are trying to convert do NOT believe that, and your holding yourself up as the arbiter of the truth, and the Jew as the “lost soul“ who is wrong, then yes, it is arrogant.

Finally, you said it doesn’t matter what we believe to be the truth, because the truth is the truth regardless of who believes it. But then, who is to determine the truth? The Christian, who believes that Jesus is G-d’s son, or the Jew who believes he is not? The arrogance comes in with implicit belief that the Christian is right, and thinking that way, feels comfortable to “straighten out” all those who believe differently.

I get that your religion commands you to “spread the news.” But you must know that every Jew over the age of 5 knows that Christians believe Jesus is G-d’s son. So you’re not sharing anything with us that we don’t already know, and obviously we have decided to be loyal to our Jewish heritage, traditions, laws, and beliefs.

So, the way I see it is if you feel compelled to tell Jews that Jesus is the way to G-d, say it once to meet your commandment, and then drop it. It seems we agree on that point.