Zone1 Does anyone else here believe (as I do) that ALL who ever lived will live forever with God in his kingdom?

[buttercup]

Talking to Christians all the time differs from talking to all Christians. Yes, there are some who believe God actively tortures people. It seems atheists learned this as well. Catholics are taught hell is separation from God which one chooses. It is not forced upon them.

Exactly. I'm not even Catholic, but I don't think of hell in the way he does. Or the way he assumes Christians do. But now I see why he believes universal salvation. Some people simply can't fathom the idea of eternal separation from God. But of course we (humans) are fallible, we can't understand everything fully, and it is silly to think that just because we have a hard time wrapping our mind around something, we need to reject the word of God and come up with a more palatable idea that sounds better to our limited minds/ understanding.

 

[K9Buck]

Also, Matthew 7:21, which was also brought up. "Not everyone who says Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Jesus is talking about the resurrection and how some on "that day" will not go to Heaven. Jesus was clearly speaking about believers who lived wicked lives. Yes, some are sent to the LOF, but it's not FOREVER.

Matthew 7:21-23 ESV
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[K9Buck]

Also, Daniel 12:2.

You read an erroneous translation of Daniel 12:2. Here is a correct translation.

Daniel 12:2

Young's Literal Translation

​

2 `And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during.

 

[buttercup]

So that verse says that people are punished FOREVER in some torture chamber? Again, it's your theology that Jesus tortures people forever?

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You sound just like an atheist on this thread.

Don't put words in people's mouths, I don't know what verse you are talking about, but I have not even stated my thoughts on hell. You are assuming, just like you already assumed what all Christians think.

I trust God. I trust that God will do what is RIGHT.

I may not understand everything, but I have the faith to trust God despite the fact that as a fallible human I can't understand everything 100%. No one can.

But again, our limited minds or lack of understanding is not a reason to come up with unbiblical doctrines that are more palatable to you, that is the way false doctrines start, when people try to create their own ideas due to their lack of understanding or weak faith in God.

 

[K9Buck]

But now I see why he believes universal salvation.

You misunderstand Jesus.

Jesus saves ALL people, especially believers, as 1 Timothy 4:10 tells us.

Why does Jesus save those that are not his? Because Jesus is LOVE. Jesus is merciful and Jesus is CAPABLE of changing the ungodly into perfection. Jesus SAVES!

The theology that Jesus discards people to be burned alive forever in a pool of lava comes from Satan.

 

[K9Buck]

...is not a reason to come up with unbiblical doctrines that are more palatable to you,

I'm giving you the scriptures. You reject the scriptures and then blame me. I'll give you another.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

This verse says that through Jesus God is RECONCILING the WORLD to himself and NOT holding their sin against them.

Nobody is cast off forever, speaking of which:

Lamentations 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off forever[


Do you want more?

 

[Meriweather]

Exactly. I'm not even Catholic, but I don't think of hell in the way he does. Or the way he assumes Christians do. But now I see why he believes universal salvation. Some people simply can't fathom the idea of eternal separation from God. But of course we (humans) are fallible, we can't understand everything fully, and it is silly to think that just because we have a hard time wrapping our mind around something, we need to reject the word of God and come up with a more palatable idea that sounds better to our limited minds/ understanding.

One story about Moses comes to mind. He obeyed God at almost every turn. But once...he struck a rock twice when he was only told to strike it once. The consequence for what seems a relatively minor act of disobedience was that Moses would not be allowed to enter the Promised Land. As I recall, Moses begged God to change His mind, but God refused. I know this is not the same as hell, but it does alert us to God's standards, and those standards have not and will not change.

Also, one one of the first Psalms...(maybe Psalm 5?) warns of what to expect when one is guilty in the sight of God. Too lazy to look it up and verify it.

Both the above reminds me that God is not our pal, but our Maker, and He has expectations of us.

 

[K9Buck]

The worldly, mainstream, Christian often becomes angry when they are told, and shown, that God loves ALL people and that, through Jesus, he will save ALL who ever lived.

I used to believe that people got sent to forever punishment. Eventually God blessed me with the ability to discern the truth through his word. I was happy and excited. Most, however, become angry and cannot accept that God loves all and will save all.

 

[buttercup]

You misunderstand Jesus.

Jesus saves ALL people, especially believers, as 1 Timothy 4:10 tells us.

Why does Jesus save those that are not his? Because Jesus is LOVE. Jesus is merciful and Jesus is CAPABLE of changing the ungodly into perfection. Jesus SAVES!

The theology that Jesus discards people to be burned alive forever in a pool of lava comes from Satan.

You keep going back to that one scripture while continually denying that your doctrine is based on one scripture.

I don't want to go around in circles with you.

The bottom line is, universalism is not a biblical Christian doctrine. Some Christians believe in annihilation, which actually has far more evidence than your position does, and even that is not considered a biblical teaching.

So you're free to believe what you want, but you are misleading people. And that is why I think it's from the enemy of God, because that's where false doctrines come from.

 

[K9Buck]

Both the above reminds me that God is not our pal...

John 3:16-17

English Standard Version

​

For God So Loved the World​

16 “For God so loved the world,[a] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

 

[onefour1]

I don't know about all that is to occur in the heavens. Maybe there is potential for some to progress eventually. But for those who become sons of Perdition our Lord Jesus taught the following:

Matthew 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The sin against the Holy Ghost will never be forgiven and I don't believe that sons of Perdition will receive forgiveness of that sin in this world nor in the world to come and therefore will never enter the kingdom of heaven. However, for others, this does bring up the question of being forgiven in the world to come. It may be possible for those to progress though probably at a much slower rate than those who would repent in this world. I do believe that after the judgement we receive after death for the acts of this world, not all will enter the kingdom of heaven upon that judgement. The best scenario, according to scripture, is that we learn to repent and seek forgiveness in this life time.

 

[K9Buck]

You keep going back to that one scripture while continually denying that your doctrine is based on one scripture.

I guess you missed the two additional verses that I shared with you. There are still more, but I know your mind is set. I won't bother.

 

[K9Buck]

Matthew 12:32
32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

That's a bad translation. Here is a correct translation.

Matthew 12:32 Concordant Literal New Testament

32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

 

[Meriweather]

For God So Loved the World

Are we debating whether God loves the world? I assumed that was a point where all of us agree.

Do all...have all...loved God? That's the issue.

 

[Weatherman2020]

Most Christians reject that belief, in spite of the strong biblical argument for universal reconciliation. Do you share my belief? If not, why not?

Some believe they evolved from rocks too. Some think they’re coming back as a bug or animal.
But there’s no documentation anywhere that even hints that it is true.
Me, I’ve got thousands of years of documentation that gives me a 99.999999% assurance I’m spending eternity with God.

 

[K9Buck]

Are we debating whether God loves the world? I assumed that was a point where all of us agree.

Do all...have all...loved God? That's the issue.

I apologize. I know that your understanding of God and his word is complete and infallible and that nobody can teach you anything about them.

 

[buttercup]

Eventually God blessed me with the ability to discern the truth through his word. I was happy and excited. Most, however, become angry and cannot accept that God loves all and will save all.

^ This is another wrong assumption and strawman.

Of course God loves all! I believe that, and every Christian I've ever known believes that.

But at the same time, God honors freedom, He gave us free will and He respects free will.

So just because God loves all doesn't mean that all love God, or that all will accept the gift of salvation.

I was done here, but when I read that strawman I had to come back to address that. But again, we're going in circles, so I'll leave you to argue with others.

 

[K9Buck]

a 99.999999% assurance I’m spending eternity with God.

100% brother!

 

[Meriweather]

32 And whosoever may be saying a word against the Son of Mankind, it will be pardoned him, yet whoever may be saying aught against the holy spirit, it shall not be pardoned him, neither in this eon nor in that which is impending.

Some parts of your translation are also a bit off. Someone has added what they think was meant to be conveyed. Understanding the etymology of the original languages is only helpful until someone starts thinking in terms of "therefore".

The etymology of eternal could mean a number of things. When a person starts insisting that in a particular verse it definitely means that, they cross the line. It is one thing to recognize that 'eternal' does not always mean 'without end' but as we are not the author, we cannot and should not state when it does and when it does not. There is such a thing as being overly enthusiastic.

 

[Meriweather]

I know that your understanding of God and his word is complete

Then you know nothing. Goes double when it is about me.