Does the O-CO2 Satellite once and for all end the Manmade CO2 Hysteria?

[Woodznutz]

From your own goddam citation:
Exactly what I said ... carbon dioxide doesn't trap energy ... it returns the energy back to the Earth's surface ... it's the Earth's surface that does all the trapping ... that's not a petty detail, that critical to the physics and chemistry behind the Greenhouse Effect ...

So, you agree that there is a greenhouse effect.

 

[ReinyDays]

I must be dense. When the Cult tells us the deep ocean and land has “warmed” by 1C that must mean that the land was 4c warmer, or did the Joules decide beforehand that for ever Joule left behind, 4 would simply transport themselves to the ocean, right?

The mistake is that the atmosphere as a whole, and the SURFACE of the oceans have warmed 1ºC over the past 140 years ... down say 100 meters ... and that the rest of the oceans are warming towards this 1ºC ... and energy is, in fact, moving down the water column ... albeit quite slowly ...

The CCC Hystericals have some conservation problems ... both in matter and energy ... so they have to make stuff up, "the oceans absorb it", and this without one shred of evidence ... funny to listen to them claim both the oceans are absorbing great quantities of CO2 AND releasing great amounts of CO2 ... at the same time ... fucking morons ...

Obviously, the same can be applied to energy ... they create it willy-nilly, move it towards the hotter object and concentrate it where-ever ... college science need not be considered ...

 

[ReinyDays]

So, you agree that there is a greenhouse effect.

Yes ... of course ... Stefan-Boltzmann's Law is stated mathematically to include a specific factor for the Greenhouse Effect ... so why aren't you using SB? ...

There's no weasel words in math ... which is why the Hystericals never use math ... their arguments are nothing but weasel ...

 

[CrusaderFrank]

The mistake is that the atmosphere as a whole, and the SURFACE of the oceans have warmed 1ºC over the past 140 years ... down say 100 meters ... and that the rest of the oceans are warming towards this 1ºC ... and energy is, in fact, moving down the water column ... albeit quite slowly ...

The CCC Hystericals have some conservation problems ... both in matter and energy ... so they have to make stuff up, "the oceans absorb it", and this without one shred of evidence ... funny to listen to them claim both the oceans are absorbing great quantities of CO2 AND releasing great amounts of CO2 ... at the same time ... fucking morons ...

Obviously, the same can be applied to energy ... they create it willy-nilly, move it towards the hotter object and concentrate it where-ever ... college science need not be considered ...

Clearly they hired Bernie Madoff's accountant after IPCC 3, it was easy to add in the "heat trapped (like a rat!!!) in the deep oceans" to make their energy budget work

 

[Woodznutz]

Yes ... of course ... Stefan-Boltzmann's Law is stated mathematically to include a specific factor for the Greenhouse Effect ... so why aren't you using SB? ...

There's no weasel words in math ... which is why the Hystericals never use math ... their arguments are nothing but weasel ...

But you don't believe Co2 has anything to do with it?

 

[ReinyDays]

Thermodynamics says heat does not flow from cold to warm.

Stop right there ... we're not interested in your 18th Century interpretation of your own alchemic experiments ...

Latent heat certainly flows from cold to hot ... what manner of stupidity says it doesn't? ... well, er, "Classic Physics" is the name we give to this kind of stupidity ... so don't feel bad, I'm just as stupid ... just a Classical kind of guy living in the Modern world ...

The whole hub-bub over "Modern Physics" is that it explains better how thermodynamics works ... and so we try to avoid using the word "heat" when we mean energy ... and we have to use the word "average" just about everyplace ... the "average" temperature of all the iron atoms in a metric ton ... even though there might be individual atoms at much much higher temperatures ... and we might have a molecule of carbon dioxide in the fire much much below the average temperature in the fire ... and the hotter iron atom radiating energy at the cooler CO2 molecule, even if all other atoms and molecules in the universe are doing the opposite ...

Thermometers measure average temperature ... and that's what NOAA uses ... space is 3 K, the Earth 300 K ... on average, energy flows from the Earth out into space ... even if there are objects out in space that are hotter ... thus we can confidently say that EVERYTHING radiates EM energy towards space ... with black holes being the only known exception ...

 

[ReinyDays]

But how do co2 molecules get hotter than the surface to heat water hotter?

The Sun has flung a 250 nm photon at us ... violet ... the atmosphere is transparent at this wavelength, so it smacks a liquid water molecule on Earth's surface ... "the broad side of a barn" ... a tenth of a second later, this single molecule is incredibly hot, way way way way hotter than the adjacent water molecules ... 2nd Law demands this change RIGHT NOW ... with force proportional to the temperature difference ... in another tenth of a second, this extra energy is shed in one, or all, of three ways ... conduction, convection and radiation ... mostly radiation along the black body light curve, on average ...

Carbon dioxide will absorb some of this outbound black body radiation ... and re-direct it back to the liquid water ... where we can add a few more tenth's of seconds while it ... again ... re-radiates the same energy back towards space ... kinda sorta like a ping pong game ...

All these tenth's of second add up ... the energy has to exist someplace ... and this is stored as surface water temperature, i.e. kinetic energy in the liquid water molecules ... the more CO2, the more photons reaching Earth's surface to be stored for tenth's of a seconds ...

A second and a half for a photon to reach the Moon ... for comparison ... tenth's of seconds is a "long time" in the subatomic world ...

 

[ReinyDays]

But you don't believe Co2 has anything to do with it?

Did you not read my post? ... I explicitly said CO2 redirects energy back to Earth's surface ... now you're just lying, aren't you ...

... or are you just plain stupid? ...

=====

All I ask is "how much" ... and show your math ...

 

[Woodznutz]

... I explicitly said CO2 redirects energy back to Earth's surface ...

That's good enough for me.

 

[ReinyDays]

That's good enough for me.

Mind your wallet ... simple as that ... if you have a way to save money on energy bills ... do it ... excellent bet it's good for the environment ...

Exchange presents on Martin Luther King Jr Day instead ... 50% savings on the energy bill ... 50% less pollution ...

 

[westwall]

From your own goddam citation:

"As CO2 soaks up this infrared energy, it vibrates and re-emits the infrared energy back in all directions. About half of that energy goes out into space, and about half of it returns to Earth as heat, contributing to the ‘greenhouse effect.’"

Exactly what I said ... carbon dioxide doesn't trap energy ... it returns the energy back to the Earth's surface ... it's the Earth's surface that does all the trapping ... that's not a petty detail, that critical to the physics and chemistry behind the Greenhouse Effect ...

I also want to correct a mistake in the article ... a molecule can only absorb ONE photon per vibration ... for example, the 15µm bandwidth ... the vibration state must be in it's "0" quantum state, the 15 µm photon has the exact energy to increase this vibration to it's "1" quantum state ... and the molecule WILL NOT absorb anymore 15 µm photons until it re-radiates a 15 µm photon ... nor will it absorb any other non-15 µm photon for this particular vibration ...

Carbon dioxide has a multitude of vibrations ... each with their specific and exacting wavelength of photons that interacts with carbon dioxide ... we like using 15 µm because water vapor is tranparent and this wavelength is close to Earth's peak energy at 9.8 µm ... makes for a good bvandwidth to discuss carbon's roll in the Greenhouse Effect without water's contribution ... what the CCC Hystericals are peeing their pants about ...

The problem is the longwave IR can't warm water. No water warming, no warming of the oceans, no warming of the oceans, no warming of the planet thanks to IR.

 

[jc456]

The CO2 concentration is also over the rainforest, NOT the industrial northern hemisphere!

But the CO2 concentration cannot radiate at any rate warmer than the surface below, so not sure how they can warm anything. They may keep things a constant, but not increase it.

 

[jc456]

"As CO2 soaks up this infrared energy, it vibrates and re-emits the infrared energy back in all directions. About half of that energy goes out into space, and about half of it returns to Earth as heat, contributing to the ‘greenhouse effect.’"

and doesn't increase shit. It can't make 72 anything more than 72.

 

[jc456]

So, you agree that there is a greenhouse effect.

can CO2 in the atmosphere make a surface temperature of 72 any warmer?

 

[jc456]

That's good enough for me.

but you think it causes an increase in air temperature on the surface right?

 

[westwall]

But the CO2 concentration cannot radiate at any rate warmer than the surface below, so not sure how they can warm anything. They may keep things a constant, but not increase it.

IR can warm rocks and sand, but that's all. So all it does is delay the loss of heat, it doesn't prevent its leaving.

 

[jc456]

IR can warm rocks and sand, but that's all. So all it does is delay the loss of heat, it doesn't prevent its leaving.

it can't warm them anymore than what they radiated themselves.

 

[westwall]

it can't warm them anymore than what they radiated themselves.

Which is true, and pretty much what I said. The simple fact is Earth is an open system. Greenhouses only work when you close the windows.

There are no windows to close on Earth.

 

[jc456]

Which is true, and pretty much what I said. The simple fact is Earth is an open system. Greenhouses only work when you close the windows.

There are no windows to close on Earth.

even in a greenhouse closed window environment, it doesn't get warmer than initial temperature, it merely keeps the heat that's there, it can't increase the temperature. Otherwise, my furnace wouldn't work so hard.

 

[para bellum]

Latent heat certainly flows from cold to hot ... what manner of stupidity says it doesn't? ... well, er, "Classic Physics" is the name we give to this kind of stupidity ... so don't feel bad, I'm just as stupid ... just a Classical kind of guy living in the Modern world ...

Well all of physics is that "manner of stupidity". It is a simplification of the universe, to reduce it to a level of human comprehension.

The whole hub-bub over "Modern Physics" is that it explains better how thermodynamics works ... and so we try to avoid using the word "heat" when we mean energy ... and we have to use the word "average" just about everyplace ...

Well it's kind of hard to avoid using the word "heat" when the subject is global "warming", and we are told that the ground is being "heated" because it is absorbing IR energy that's "re-radiated" from CO2. And if the atmospheric CO2 level goes up, the ground will get even hotter, because more IR energy will get "re-radiated" by the CO2 back towards the ground.

I agree, we are measuring averages. AGW theory concerns the macro scale, not individual molecules.

I can't glibly discard the rules of thermodynamics- the atmosphere is "on average" cooler than the ground, and the heat transfer arrow points outwards.

The source of the "heat" in the atmosphere is the ground. The ground receives it from the sun in the form of visible light (plus a little bit from geothermal and atomic processes), and radiates it away as IR (heat energy).

Some the IR energy is absorbed by water vapor and other "greenhouse gases", and that raises the average temperature of the atmosphere and keeps us from freezing to death.

So the ground heats up during the day and it cools down at night. It's still radiating energy in the day, but it is absorbing energy at a higher rate than it's radiating it away, so it gets warmer. At night it reverses, and the ground gets cooler.

The net change is zero. All the energy absorbed in the day must radiate away at night, or we fry. Conservation of energy.