Electoral College Vote; Interesting Topic

[Quantum Windbag]

has this ever happened?

I don't recall this in history class.

1825

 

[Peach]

has this ever happened?

I don't recall this in history class.

Yes, Jefferson & JQ Adams.

 

[Peach]

has this ever happened?

I don't recall this in history class.

1825

1801 and 1825.

 

[candycorn]

You're premise is that the Senate would remain in Democratic Hands after this election, which is pretty unlikely. The Democrats are defending 10 seats, the GOP is only defending two, and they only need to win four to get control of the chamber. So in the unlikely event that the House is Deadlocked, whoever the GOP nominee for veep will likely be the acting president.

Right now, if you had a one-state, one vote breakdown, the GOP guy would win the House as well. all those square states with Republican Congressmen. More than likely, the Dems will take back some seats, but I think the House is going to remain in GOP hands.

It would be in Democratic hands until 1/3/13.

You don't think they'll find ways to delay the vote until then?

It's a moot point, anyway.

Probably a moot point. The vote will not be delayed. Not a chance. Don't be crazy.

 

[zzzz]

1800 election between Jefferson and Burr was thrown to the House because they tied in electorial votes.
1824 election (corrupt Bargain) of J Q Adams over Jackson was also decided in the house

12th Amendment : The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;--The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;--The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.--The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

 

[candycorn]

1800 election between Jefferson and Burr was thrown to the House because they tied in electorial votes.
1824 election (corrupt Bargain) of J Q Adams over Jackson was also decided in the house

12th Amendment : The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;--The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;--The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.--The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

Section 3 of the XX Amendment moved the March stipulation to January 20th. The President and Vice President are in office until 1/20/2011 @ noon Washington Time.

Whether or not the sitting VP can act to vote for himself for President is a matter yet to be decided.

All in all, it's fascinating that each state gets one vote in this narrow case (in the House). Sort of makes you wonder about why the founders didn't do it that way the entire time...instead of needing 218 to pass a bill, you would need 26... I don't know if it's crazy or brilliant!

 

[zzzz]

...
All in all, it's fascinating that each state gets one vote in this narrow case (in the House). Sort of makes you wonder about why the founders didn't do it that way the entire time...instead of needing 218 to pass a bill, you would need 26... I don't know if it's crazy or brilliant!

Ah but they did. The Senate was designed to give each state equal weight, hence 2 Senators per state. The House was designed theoretically to give the more populous states more power and votes and the number of Representatives is apportioned by population.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The Articles of Confederation Congress did vote by states, which led to geographical paralysis on certain issues. The treaty that would have permitted American westerners to use the Spanish Port of New Orleans to move their goods (so much more cheaply than east over the mountains) was killed by the New England states that feared the potential of the West both politically and economically.

The Electoral College is a trade off between the straight republican presentation of the one-vote one-state of the AOCC and the desire by many on this board for a mass democratic vote for the presidency.

I think the Electoral College is a perfect compromise between extreme republicanism and extreme democracy.

 

[Peach]

The Articles of Confederation Congress did vote by states, which led to geographical paralysis on certain issues. The treaty that would have permitted American westerners to use the Spanish Port of New Orleans to move their goods (so much more cheaply than east over the mountains) was killed by the New England states that feared the potential of the West both politically and economically.

The Electoral College is a trade off between the straight republican presentation of the one-vote one-state of the AOCC and the desire by many on this board for a mass democratic vote for the presidency.

I think the Electoral College is a perfect compromise between extreme republicanism and extreme democracy.

Actually, the transportation of individual votes, and the length of time for a count were important factors. Note that the President used to take office March 4. That is the anniversary of the Constitution taking effect. Also, March 4, gave electors from outlying states time to have electoral votes counted. The results of 2000, while not in the best interests of the US, was just one of several such electoral college/popular vote disparities. Gore won the popular vote by 1/2 of 1%. Statistically, it was a tie.

 

[JoeB131]

has this ever happened?

I don't recall this in history class.

1825

1801 and 1825.

The 1801 situation was different, because it was before the 12th Amendment established the Electoral College in the form we have now.

In the 1825 case, the thing was you had four candidates, all in the same party. (The Federalists had ceased to be and the Whigs had yet to evolve). In six states, including New York, electors were chosen by the state legislators.

Only the top three candidates were allowed to be choices, which eliminated Clay from contention. Crawford, who came in third, had suffered a stroke, and didn't actually campaign. (Keep in mind, we've elected corpses to the Senate.) So Clay and Adams cut a deal icing Andrew Jackson out of the presidency, even though he got the most votes. (Kind of makes the 2000 thing seem a bit tame.)

Now, back to the selection of the Vice President in the Senate, that issue wasn't in conention. John C. Calhoun was on the ticket with both Adams and Jackson. So the electoral college made him vice President without it ever going to Congress.

Equally Ironically, when Jackson came back and beat Adams in 1828, he took Calhoun as his running mate, being one of two to serve under two Presidents.

 

[JoeB131]

It would be in Democratic hands until 1/3/13.

You don't think they'll find ways to delay the vote until then?

It's a moot point, anyway.

Probably a moot point. The vote will not be delayed. Not a chance. Don't be crazy.

You think the Republicans won't delay that for a month? Come on. You don't think they'll find ways to grind the chamber to a halt until their new members are seated?

You really think these outgoing Senators are going to go to the mat for Joe Biden? Really? Hell, half of them are urging Obama to dump his ass now.

 

[candycorn]

You don't think they'll find ways to delay the vote until then?

It's a moot point, anyway.

Probably a moot point. The vote will not be delayed. Not a chance. Don't be crazy.

You think the Republicans won't delay that for a month? Come on. You don't think they'll find ways to grind the chamber to a halt until their new members are seated?

You really think these outgoing Senators are going to go to the mat for Joe Biden? Really? Hell, half of them are urging Obama to dump his ass now.

Too high profile; too politically damaging to do that. The GOP didn't delay the Senate until Brown from MA was seated. His seating would have been able to prevent the cloture motion.

This would be obstructionist beyond belief so they wouldn't do that. Half of the Democratic senators are urging Obama to dump Biden?

Gotta hand it to you. You're Always good for a laugh.

 

[JoeB131]

Too high profile; too politically damaging to do that. The GOP didn't delay the Senate until Brown from MA was seated. His seating would have been able to prevent the cloture motion.

This would be obstructionist beyond belief so they wouldn't do that. Half of the Democratic senators are urging Obama to dump Biden?

Gotta hand it to you. You're Always good for a laugh.

I'd be surprised if it was any less than half. They know that Biden would be a loser for them in 2016 and Obama needs to groom a sucessor.

Incidently, the Brown comparison isn't apt at all. In that case, the Democrats still had enough ability to shut down filibusters until Brown was seated, meaning the GOP couldn't do much. In a fight where they already have 47 seats with another six on the way, yeah, they'll bog the thing down, and so on.

Keep in mind who The Dems would have to rely on to slip Biden in there. Well. Joe Leiberman. YOu know, the guy you ran out of the party six years ago because he stuck by his Iraq War vote. Can you imagine Joe Leiberman making his last act in office saddling a new President with Joe Biden?

Fact is, the Senate will take its cue from whatever the House does.

Incidently, I don't think this will ever go to Congress. The electoral college will find one faithless elector to tip the balance to 270.

 

[Peach]

Probably a moot point. The vote will not be delayed. Not a chance. Don't be crazy.

You think the Republicans won't delay that for a month? Come on. You don't think they'll find ways to grind the chamber to a halt until their new members are seated?

You really think these outgoing Senators are going to go to the mat for Joe Biden? Really? Hell, half of them are urging Obama to dump his ass now.

Too high profile; too politically damaging to do that. The GOP didn't delay the Senate until Brown from MA was seated. His seating would have been able to prevent the cloture motion.

This would be obstructionist beyond belief so they wouldn't do that. Half of the Democratic senators are urging Obama to dump Biden?

Gotta hand it to you. You're Always good for a laugh.

The House must go into session IMMEDIATELY, and pick from the top three. The deadline Bush used to win the lawsuit in 2000 and become President applies. The House would most probably RACE to pick the Republican candidate. They could not delay by filing lawsuits this time around.

 

[Peach]

Too high profile; too politically damaging to do that. The GOP didn't delay the Senate until Brown from MA was seated. His seating would have been able to prevent the cloture motion.

This would be obstructionist beyond belief so they wouldn't do that. Half of the Democratic senators are urging Obama to dump Biden?

Gotta hand it to you. You're Always good for a laugh.

I'd be surprised if it was any less than half. They know that Biden would be a loser for them in 2016 and Obama needs to groom a sucessor.

Incidently, the Brown comparison isn't apt at all. In that case, the Democrats still had enough ability to shut down filibusters until Brown was seated, meaning the GOP couldn't do much. In a fight where they already have 47 seats with another six on the way, yeah, they'll bog the thing down, and so on.

Keep in mind who The Dems would have to rely on to slip Biden in there. Well. Joe Leiberman. YOu know, the guy you ran out of the party six years ago because he stuck by his Iraq War vote. Can you imagine Joe Leiberman making his last act in office saddling a new President with Joe Biden?

Fact is, the Senate will take its cue from whatever the House does.

Incidently, I don't think this will ever go to Congress. The electoral college will find one faithless elector to tip the balance to 270.

Yes, there have been "faithless" electors before.

 

[JoeB131]

You think the Republicans won't delay that for a month? Come on. You don't think they'll find ways to grind the chamber to a halt until their new members are seated?

You really think these outgoing Senators are going to go to the mat for Joe Biden? Really? Hell, half of them are urging Obama to dump his ass now.

Too high profile; too politically damaging to do that. The GOP didn't delay the Senate until Brown from MA was seated. His seating would have been able to prevent the cloture motion.

This would be obstructionist beyond belief so they wouldn't do that. Half of the Democratic senators are urging Obama to dump Biden?

Gotta hand it to you. You're Always good for a laugh.

The House must go into session IMMEDIATELY, and pick from the top three. The deadline Bush used to win the lawsuit in 2000 and become President applies. The House would most probably RACE to pick the Republican candidate. They could not delay by filing lawsuits this time around.

I think there would also be other factors, such as who won the popular vote and by how much.

The possibility of a 269-269 tie is so remote, anyway, that it is almost a waste of time to talk about it. A more likely scenario is if Americans Elect responds to the nomination of Santorum by nominating a centrist who also pulls votes from Obama. But again. Really unlikely that would happen.

 

[Peach]

Too high profile; too politically damaging to do that. The GOP didn't delay the Senate until Brown from MA was seated. His seating would have been able to prevent the cloture motion.

This would be obstructionist beyond belief so they wouldn't do that. Half of the Democratic senators are urging Obama to dump Biden?

Gotta hand it to you. You're Always good for a laugh.

I'd be surprised if it was any less than half. They know that Biden would be a loser for them in 2016 and Obama needs to groom a sucessor.

Incidently, the Brown comparison isn't apt at all. In that case, the Democrats still had enough ability to shut down filibusters until Brown was seated, meaning the GOP couldn't do much. In a fight where they already have 47 seats with another six on the way, yeah, they'll bog the thing down, and so on.

Keep in mind who The Dems would have to rely on to slip Biden in there. Well. Joe Leiberman. YOu know, the guy you ran out of the party six years ago because he stuck by his Iraq War vote. Can you imagine Joe Leiberman making his last act in office saddling a new President with Joe Biden?

Fact is, the Senate will take its cue from whatever the House does.

Incidently, I don't think this will ever go to Congress. The electoral college will find one faithless elector to tip the balance to 270.

With SIX on the way? Any cite for that assertion? Turnout for the primaries has been low; and the fight has been nasty. TWO GOP contenders yelling that OTHER GOP contenders are not Christians. Unusual.

 

[Lakhota]

Lawmakers Pledge to Reform, But Gerrymandering Keeps Getting Worse - The Daily Beast

Backfired! 4 Ways the Ohio GOP Tilts Voting Rules But Ends Up Helping Democrats | | AlterNet

 

[Peach]

Too high profile; too politically damaging to do that. The GOP didn't delay the Senate until Brown from MA was seated. His seating would have been able to prevent the cloture motion.

This would be obstructionist beyond belief so they wouldn't do that. Half of the Democratic senators are urging Obama to dump Biden?

Gotta hand it to you. You're Always good for a laugh.

The House must go into session IMMEDIATELY, and pick from the top three. The deadline Bush used to win the lawsuit in 2000 and become President applies. The House would most probably RACE to pick the Republican candidate. They could not delay by filing lawsuits this time around.

I think there would also be other factors, such as who won the popular vote and by how much.

The possibility of a 269-269 tie is so remote, anyway, that it is almost a waste of time to talk about it. A more likely scenario is if Americans Elect responds to the nomination of Santorum by nominating a centrist who also pulls votes from Obama. But again. Really unlikely that would happen.

More likely a third party run by Paul, though I doubt that also. Santorum will play up his PRIOR stances on AIDS & charity to appear moderate.

 

[JoeB131]

With SIX on the way? Any cite for that assertion? Turnout for the primaries has been low; and the fight has been nasty. TWO GOP contenders yelling that OTHER GOP contenders are not Christians. Unusual.

RealClearPolitics - 2012 Election Maps - Battle for the Senate

The Republicans will easily make six pickups.

Right now, the Democrats have two vacancies that the GOP will pick up- North Dakota and Nebraska.

Six other states have weak Democratic incumbants most of whom came in on the 2006 wave. Two of them- Virginia and Wisconsin - have Senators who are retiring. Florida, Michigan, Montana, and Missouri have incumbants who are considered toss ups.

There are three more vacancies that are considered safe Dem states, but that could change when candidates are chosen- Hawaii, Connicutt and New Mexico.

The GOP only has two seats that are at any risk. Nevada, where John Ensign Resigned, and Masschusetts, where they only elected Scott Brown to stop ObamaCare.

So worse case scenario for the GOP- They stay where they are at. The lose the two vulnerables and pick up the two easy vacancies. Best case, they lose none of the vulnerables, pick up all six of the toss ups and the two sure things, and maybe pick off one of the Lean Dems. That would be a gain of nine seats.

I think six is a safe, Conservative number based on history. Even in cases where incumbants have been retained (Reagan, Clinton) votes have split the difference and increased the oppossitions margin in the Senate.