Europe’s navies are falling behind when it comes to anti-aircraft warfare.

[Mushroom]

The biggest limitation on Battleships in the pacific is that they were fuel hogs. That’s why most of the Japanese battle line spent most of the war anchored in the DEI where they could draw fuel right from the wells. Up until 1943, the old US battleships were VERY restricted in movement and the newer, more fuel efficient Treaty battleships carried the load.

Not really. The US was both the largest oil producer in the world, it was also the largest oil exporter in the world at that time. There was no real need for the US to try and "conserve", as production even rose during the war. The US had a navy of over 6,700 ships, and had no problems providing them with the fuel they needed.

Now for Japan, it was an issue because they were oil importers even before the war. And things only got worse for them when US subs started targeting their tankers. But that was not a problem for the US.

And the US only had 6 "Treaty Battleships". And your apparent belief here is dead wrong.

HyperWar: War Service Fuel Consumption of US Naval Surface Vessels [BB]

www.ibiblio.org

The "Fast Battleships" (North Carolina through Iowa class) would burn at their top speeds from 9 to 14,000 gallons an hour. However, on average the pre-treaty Battleships burned from a half to a third that amount of fuel at their top speeds. From as little as 3,200 gallons per hour at top speed for the Nevada Class. All of the WWI era and earlier battleships were much more fuel efficient than the Carolinas and Iowa class ships were. However, they were also much slower and could not hope to keep up with the new generations of carriers.

So I have absolutely no idea where you are getting that belief. But feel free to look above, that is a good breakdown of the fuel consumption at various speeds of all US Battleships of WWII.

And that and every other reference I have found says you are dead wrong. Treaty Battleships were not more fuel efficient. What they were though was a lot faster.

 

[Dayton3]

Not really. The US was both the largest oil producer in the world, it was also the largest oil exporter in the world at that time. There was no real need for the US to try and "conserve", as production even rose during the war. The US had a navy of over 6,700 ships, and had no problems providing them with the fuel they needed.

Now for Japan, it was an issue because they were oil importers even before the war. And things only got worse for them when US subs started targeting their tankers. But that was not a problem for the US.

And the US only had 6 "Treaty Battleships". And your apparent belief here is dead wrong.

HyperWar: War Service Fuel Consumption of US Naval Surface Vessels [BB]

www.ibiblio.org

The "Fast Battleships" (North Carolina through Iowa class) would burn at their top speeds from 9 to 14,000 gallons an hour. However, on average the pre-treaty Battleships burned from a half to a third that amount of fuel at their top speeds. From as little as 3,200 gallons per hour at top speed for the Nevada Class. All of the WWI era and earlier battleships were much more fuel efficient than the Carolinas and Iowa class ships were. However, they were also much slower and could not hope to keep up with the new generations of carriers.

So I have absolutely no idea where you are getting that belief. But feel free to look above, that is a good breakdown of the fuel consumption at various speeds of all US Battleships of WWII.

And that and every other reference I have found says you are dead wrong. Treaty Battleships were not more fuel efficient. What they were though was a lot faste

I seem to remember a stat that during WW2 more than 40% of Japanese oil consumed was burned by the Japanese fleet.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Not really. The US was both the largest oil producer in the world, it was also the largest oil exporter in the world at that time. There was no real need for the US to try and "conserve", as production even rose during the war. The US had a navy of over 6,700 ships, and had no problems providing them with the fuel they needed.

Now for Japan, it was an issue because they were oil importers even before the war. And things only got worse for them when US subs started targeting their tankers. But that was not a problem for the US.

And the US only had 6 "Treaty Battleships". And your apparent belief here is dead wrong.

HyperWar: War Service Fuel Consumption of US Naval Surface Vessels [BB]

www.ibiblio.org

The "Fast Battleships" (North Carolina through Iowa class) would burn at their top speeds from 9 to 14,000 gallons an hour. However, on average the pre-treaty Battleships burned from a half to a third that amount of fuel at their top speeds. From as little as 3,200 gallons per hour at top speed for the Nevada Class. All of the WWI era and earlier battleships were much more fuel efficient than the Carolinas and Iowa class ships were. However, they were also much slower and could not hope to keep up with the new generations of carriers.

So I have absolutely no idea where you are getting that belief. But feel free to look above, that is a good breakdown of the fuel consumption at various speeds of all US Battleships of WWII.

And that and every other reference I have found says you are dead wrong. Treaty Battleships were not more fuel efficient. What they were though was a lot faster.

The US had plenty of oil, but not enough oilers to fuel the fleet.

 

[Mushroom]

I seem to remember a stat that during WW2 more than 40% of Japanese oil consumed was burned by the Japanese fleet.

And fine, that is Japan.

Not the United States.

Even today, Japan only produces 123,000 barrels of oil a day. That places them 44th in the world. And they import over 4 million barrels a day, making them the 4th largest importer.

They are not the US, and you can't compare the problems they had with the US in any way.

 

[Mushroom]

The US had plenty of oil, but not enough oilers to fuel the fleet.

Oh yes, they only had 136 of them. Of course, that is those in direct Navy service in 1941.

And there were 481 built just in the T2 configuration alone built during the war. Each of which carried over 6 million gallons of oil.

Tankers Built in U.S. During World War II

American Merchant Marine, tanker, merchant marine, casualties during World War II, Revolutionary War, Vietnam, U.S. Maritime Service training, Naval Armed Guard, Information for veteran mariners, African American seamen

www.usmm.org

In fact, if you knew the history of the fleet and their tankers, you would know that even before the US entered WWII, they were pulling their older tankers out of service and converting them to other things. Like a brand new oiler built in 1939 for civilian use called the Markay. It was intended to serve the cross-Atlantic route delivering oil to Europe, but the outbreak of WWII there meant that the customer no longer needed it. So it was snatched up by the Navy in June of 1941.

But not to see service as a tanker. No, navy already had a hell of a lot of tankers and even more being built. So they did not need another small civilian tanker. So they ripped out the tanks, threw a flight deck on it, and it became CVE-27. Known as the USS Suwannee.

Why, the US by the end of the war had converted almost 100 oilers into carriers. Which makes absolutely no sense if what you are saying is true.

I have to say, I would love to read some references for that, because in all my decades of study on WWII, I have never heard that they had any major problems ever providing the fleets with fuel. You keep saying things that simply are not true. First that the newer ships used less fuel than the older ones (the opposite was true), then repeating this yet again.

Yet, they built enough tankers in a single class to ship out over 2 billion gallons of fuel at a time. Just a single class of ship, not counting the hundreds they had before the war started, and the hundreds more they pressed into service from civilian companies. Because Esso, Standard, and all the other civilian tankers that were around? Those owned by US companies also served moving oil for the US during the war.

Yet, somehow you say they were unable to fuel their fleet. Care to give a reference to validate that claim?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Oh yes, they only had 136 of them. Of course, that is those in direct Navy service in 1941.

And there were 481 built just in the T2 configuration alone built during the war. Each of which carried over 6 million gallons of oil.

Tankers Built in U.S. During World War II

American Merchant Marine, tanker, merchant marine, casualties during World War II, Revolutionary War, Vietnam, U.S. Maritime Service training, Naval Armed Guard, Information for veteran mariners, African American seamen

www.usmm.org

In fact, if you knew the history of the fleet and their tankers, you would know that even before the US entered WWII, they were pulling their older tankers out of service and converting them to other things. Like a brand new oiler built in 1939 for civilian use called the Markay. It was intended to serve the cross-Atlantic route delivering oil to Europe, but the outbreak of WWII there meant that the customer no longer needed it. So it was snatched up by the Navy in June of 1941.

But not to see service as a tanker. No, navy already had a hell of a lot of tankers and even more being built. So they did not need another small civilian tanker. So they ripped out the tanks, threw a flight deck on it, and it became CVE-27. Known as the USS Suwannee.

Why, the US by the end of the war had converted almost 100 oilers into carriers. Which makes absolutely no sense if what you are saying is true.

I have to say, I would love to read some references for that, because in all my decades of study on WWII, I have never heard that they had any major problems ever providing the fleets with fuel. You keep saying things that simply are not true. First that the newer ships used less fuel than the older ones (the opposite was true), then repeating this yet again.

Yet, they built enough tankers in a single class to ship out over 2 billion gallons of fuel at a time. Just a single class of ship, not counting the hundreds they had before the war started, and the hundreds more they pressed into service from civilian companies. Because Esso, Standard, and all the other civilian tankers that were around? Those owned by US companies also served moving oil for the US during the war.

Yet, somehow you say they were unable to fuel their fleet. Care to give a reference to validate that claim?

You're way off. In December 1941 the entire USN oiler fleet consisted of 26 ships of which only fourteen could exceed eleven knots under ideal conditions. Those eleven were Fleet Oilers, the rest were Replenishment Tankers. Each task force needed at least three fleet oilers, one enroute to the task force, one on station with the task force and one enroute to being refueled at a base or from a replenishment tanker in a sheltered harbor. That means the Navy could only support four task forces at sea at once in BOTH the Atlantic and Pacific Theaters of Operation combined. The slow battleships were operated near bases, so they didn't need to draw on the small fleet oiler fleet. Of all the CVEs only the four Sangamons were converted from existing tankers, the rest were either purpose designed and built like the nine Commencement Bay class that were commissioned before the end of the war, or the Casablanca Class which were designed based upon the C-3 cargo hull. Only the four Avenger Class and twenty-two of the Bogue Class were converted from C-3 cargo ships either on the ways or actually in service. The remaining twenty-three Bogue Class were built from the ground up as CVEs. So only FOUR tankers were converted to CVEs, NOT the hundred you claim. There were only a total of 31 ships, both tanker hulls and cargo hulls converted to CVEs and most of them were converted on the ways before completion

 

[Mushroom]

You're way off. In December 1941 the entire USN oiler fleet consisted of 26 ships of which only fourteen could exceed eleven knots under ideal conditions.

Nice word play there.

Simple fact, most "US Oilers" were not "Navy Ships". they never have been. That can be easily seen because of the "SS" designation. They are not "USS", because technically they were civilian ships. Crewed by civilian sailors. But here is a list of those actually "owned" by the Navy. They were all AO or T-AO designations.

There were 2 Kanawha class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 2 Thompson-Barnes class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 8 Cimarron class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 4 Cuyama class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 8 Patoka class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 3 Kaweah class oilers in service in December 1941.

Wow, we are already at 27.

There were 2 Kennebec class oilers in service in December 1941.

Oh, and in the week after, add another 11 ships.

An additional 6 T2 class oilers under civilian ownership were taken over and designated as Kennebec class oilers. Bringing that total to 8 a week after Pearl Harbor.

And an additional 5 T2-A oilers that were designated as Mattaponi class oilers. Those 11 were simple, as they were actually completed and still in the shipyard, waiting for the customers to come and pick them up. But by the end of 1943, the average built time for a T2 was 70 days. And you had massive shipyards like Sun Shipbuilding that had 28 slipways building nothing but T2 tankers. They built 281 of them just at that single Pennsylvania shipyard during WWII.

In total, 533 T2 tankers alone were built from 1940 to 1945. And by the middle of the war one was entering service on average every 3 days. From shipyards ranging from Alabama, Sausalito, and Portland. The shipyards had already been expanded and were already at "wartime production" before the war even started because of lend-lease and the demand to send fuel to UK and Europe.

31 T2s were built in 1942. 133 in 1943. 221 in 1944. 149 in 1945. And that is only T2 fuelers.

Not counting all of the civilian ships pressed into service, which I notice you neglected to mention. Like any time you read a book about the war, and see an "SS" designation, like the SS Esso Gettysburg that was still in civilian operation. But most of the others that had been civilian ships were given T-AO or USNS designations.

And speed matters little because they did not typically "stay" with the fleet. Typically support ships like fuelers were sent out in advance of the fleet itself. And the fleet is limited by the speed of the slowest ship in the fleet. Yes, our Fleet Carriers by late in the war were doing 33 knots. But most of the fleet was still only doing from 12-16 knots. Hell, even our "fast troop ships" only made 17 knots.

What, do you actually think that an oiler is attached to a fleet, and fuels it up as they sail? No, that is not how they operate. They are sent out in advance, and fuel up on the go. And the US was already a master of UNREP by the time of WWII. And the ships did not have to always go that far, as the US Navy was also running "Naval Advance Bases". Like Fiji, which was to be the next target by Japan if they had taken Midway. And there were others, like New Caledonia, Milne bay, Samoa, Palmyra, etc, etc, etc.

Heck, that is what a major part of Pearl Harbor actually was. A giant forward supply base, with massive fuel farms to support the fleet. Each time the US took an island from the Japanese, they repeated that.

And yes, going back to look at my reference they for some reason listed many as T2 ships, which is incorrect as they were C2 ships.

However, it was still more than the 4 ships of the Sangamon class. Because there were also the 19 Commencement Bay class Escort Carriers, all built on T3 hulls. Those were basically "Improved Sangamon" class ships, and addressed shortcomings in the older design.

And I am still waiting for a reference that stated that the US fleet could barely operate because of a lack of fuel.

But here is one you might want to read, it is rather interesting.

https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/INTA4803TP/Articles/Oil%20Logistics%20in%20the%20Pacific%20War=Donovan.pdf

And it does discuss the issues of fuel, in early 1942. The entire Navy however was still largely in a "holding pattern" in 1942, and real offensive operations did not really commence until 1943. Because there were just not enough ships yet to go on the offense. They needed troop ships, cargo ships, destroyers, subs, escort carriers, and a hell of a lot of ships of every class.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Nice word play there.

Simple fact, most "US Oilers" were not "Navy Ships". they never have been. That can be easily seen because of the "SS" designation. They are not "USS", because technically they were civilian ships. Crewed by civilian sailors. But here is a list of those actually "owned" by the Navy. They were all AO or T-AO designations.

There were 2 Kanawha class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 2 Thompson-Barnes class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 8 Cimarron class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 4 Cuyama class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 8 Patoka class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 3 Kaweah class oilers in service in December 1941.

Wow, we are already at 27.

There were 2 Kennebec class oilers in service in December 1941.

Oh, and in the week after, add another 11 ships.

An additional 6 T2 class oilers under civilian ownership were taken over and designated as Kennebec class oilers. Bringing that total to 8 a week after Pearl Harbor.

And an additional 5 T2-A oilers that were designated as Mattaponi class oilers. Those 11 were simple, as they were actually completed and still in the shipyard, waiting for the customers to come and pick them up. But by the end of 1943, the average built time for a T2 was 70 days. And you had massive shipyards like Sun Shipbuilding that had 28 slipways building nothing but T2 tankers. They built 281 of them just at that single Pennsylvania shipyard during WWII.

In total, 533 T2 tankers alone were built from 1940 to 1945. And by the middle of the war one was entering service on average every 3 days. From shipyards ranging from Alabama, Sausalito, and Portland. The shipyards had already been expanded and were already at "wartime production" before the war even started because of lend-lease and the demand to send fuel to UK and Europe.

31 T2s were built in 1942. 133 in 1943. 221 in 1944. 149 in 1945. And that is only T2 fuelers.

Not counting all of the civilian ships pressed into service, which I notice you neglected to mention. Like any time you read a book about the war, and see an "SS" designation, like the SS Esso Gettysburg that was still in civilian operation. But most of the others that had been civilian ships were given T-AO or USNS designations.

And speed matters little because they did not typically "stay" with the fleet. Typically support ships like fuelers were sent out in advance of the fleet itself. And the fleet is limited by the speed of the slowest ship in the fleet. Yes, our Fleet Carriers by late in the war were doing 33 knots. But most of the fleet was still only doing from 12-16 knots. Hell, even our "fast troop ships" only made 17 knots.

What, do you actually think that an oiler is attached to a fleet, and fuels it up as they sail? No, that is not how they operate. They are sent out in advance, and fuel up on the go. And the US was already a master of UNREP by the time of WWII. And the ships did not have to always go that far, as the US Navy was also running "Naval Advance Bases". Like Fiji, which was to be the next target by Japan if they had taken Midway. And there were others, like New Caledonia, Milne bay, Samoa, Palmyra, etc, etc, etc.

Heck, that is what a major part of Pearl Harbor actually was. A giant forward supply base, with massive fuel farms to support the fleet. Each time the US took an island from the Japanese, they repeated that.

And yes, going back to look at my reference they for some reason listed many as T2 ships, which is incorrect as they were C2 ships.

However, it was still more than the 4 ships of the Sangamon class. Because there were also the 19 Commencement Bay class Escort Carriers, all built on T3 hulls. Those were basically "Improved Sangamon" class ships, and addressed shortcomings in the older design.

And I am still waiting for a reference that stated that the US fleet could barely operate because of a lack of fuel.

But here is one you might want to read, it is rather interesting.

https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/INTA4803TP/Articles/Oil%20Logistics%20in%20the%20Pacific%20War=Donovan.pdf

And it does discuss the issues of fuel, in early 1942. The entire Navy however was still largely in a "holding pattern" in 1942, and real offensive operations did not really commence until 1943. Because there were just not enough ships yet to go on the offense. They needed troop ships, cargo ships, destroyers, subs, escort carriers, and a hell of a lot of ships of every class.

You don’t have the faintest idea what you are talking about. Tankers are equipped very differently than oilers. Oilers are assigned to task forces and fleets and perform ongoing refueling operations on a daily or weekly basis. Small ships like destroyers have to be refueled quite often because at fleet speeds they use a lot of fuel hunting and patrolling for subs. Open up the data on those tankers, you will find that almost all were limited to eleven knots or less. That was far to slow to operate even with the slow battleships, let alone the carrier task forces. Why do you think the AOR Neosho (a Cimarron Class oiler) was sunk barely a hundred miles from Task Force 17 shortly after refueling the Task Force and the AO Tippecanoe (one of the old eleven knot Patoka replenishment tankers) had been sent from direct from Nomea to rendezvous with Task Force 11 which drained the older, smaller and slower tanker dry and she was sent to safety unlike Neosho who still was partially loaded after refueling the larger TF 17.
Civilian tankers took precedence over the production of Fleet Oilers in 1942 and 1943 because the UK needed every possible tanker to replace U Boat losses and provide fuel for the wartime economy. Even most of the fast T-3 tankers went to civilian users. Nearly all of the smaller and slightly slower T-2 tankers went to civilian operators as well. Almost all of the USN oilers went into service in 1943 and 1944. In 1941 and 1942, fleet oilers were nearly as rare as hen’s teeth.
The slow navy oilers could be sent to rendezvous with task forces, but they couldn’t keep up with them operationally like the fast AORs like Neosho.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Nice word play there.

Simple fact, most "US Oilers" were not "Navy Ships". they never have been. That can be easily seen because of the "SS" designation. They are not "USS", because technically they were civilian ships. Crewed by civilian sailors. But here is a list of those actually "owned" by the Navy. They were all AO or T-AO designations.

There were 2 Kanawha class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 2 Thompson-Barnes class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 8 Cimarron class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 4 Cuyama class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 8 Patoka class oilers in service in December 1941.
There were 3 Kaweah class oilers in service in December 1941.

Wow, we are already at 27.

There were 2 Kennebec class oilers in service in December 1941.

Oh, and in the week after, add another 11 ships.

An additional 6 T2 class oilers under civilian ownership were taken over and designated as Kennebec class oilers. Bringing that total to 8 a week after Pearl Harbor.

And an additional 5 T2-A oilers that were designated as Mattaponi class oilers. Those 11 were simple, as they were actually completed and still in the shipyard, waiting for the customers to come and pick them up. But by the end of 1943, the average built time for a T2 was 70 days. And you had massive shipyards like Sun Shipbuilding that had 28 slipways building nothing but T2 tankers. They built 281 of them just at that single Pennsylvania shipyard during WWII.

In total, 533 T2 tankers alone were built from 1940 to 1945. And by the middle of the war one was entering service on average every 3 days. From shipyards ranging from Alabama, Sausalito, and Portland. The shipyards had already been expanded and were already at "wartime production" before the war even started because of lend-lease and the demand to send fuel to UK and Europe.

31 T2s were built in 1942. 133 in 1943. 221 in 1944. 149 in 1945. And that is only T2 fuelers.

Not counting all of the civilian ships pressed into service, which I notice you neglected to mention. Like any time you read a book about the war, and see an "SS" designation, like the SS Esso Gettysburg that was still in civilian operation. But most of the others that had been civilian ships were given T-AO or USNS designations.

And speed matters little because they did not typically "stay" with the fleet. Typically support ships like fuelers were sent out in advance of the fleet itself. And the fleet is limited by the speed of the slowest ship in the fleet. Yes, our Fleet Carriers by late in the war were doing 33 knots. But most of the fleet was still only doing from 12-16 knots. Hell, even our "fast troop ships" only made 17 knots.

What, do you actually think that an oiler is attached to a fleet, and fuels it up as they sail? No, that is not how they operate. They are sent out in advance, and fuel up on the go. And the US was already a master of UNREP by the time of WWII. And the ships did not have to always go that far, as the US Navy was also running "Naval Advance Bases". Like Fiji, which was to be the next target by Japan if they had taken Midway. And there were others, like New Caledonia, Milne bay, Samoa, Palmyra, etc, etc, etc.

Heck, that is what a major part of Pearl Harbor actually was. A giant forward supply base, with massive fuel farms to support the fleet. Each time the US took an island from the Japanese, they repeated that.

And yes, going back to look at my reference they for some reason listed many as T2 ships, which is incorrect as they were C2 ships.

However, it was still more than the 4 ships of the Sangamon class. Because there were also the 19 Commencement Bay class Escort Carriers, all built on T3 hulls. Those were basically "Improved Sangamon" class ships, and addressed shortcomings in the older design.

And I am still waiting for a reference that stated that the US fleet could barely operate because of a lack of fuel.

But here is one you might want to read, it is rather interesting.

https://faculty.cc.gatech.edu/~tpilsch/INTA4803TP/Articles/Oil%20Logistics%20in%20the%20Pacific%20War=Donovan.pdf

And it does discuss the issues of fuel, in early 1942. The entire Navy however was still largely in a "holding pattern" in 1942, and real offensive operations did not really commence until 1943. Because there were just not enough ships yet to go on the offense. They needed troop ships, cargo ships, destroyers, subs, escort carriers, and a hell of a lot of ships of every class.

The US Navy was in anything except a “holding pattern” in 1942. Four major battles happened in 1942, Coral Sea, Midway, Santa Cruz and Eastern Solomons. First and second battles of Guadalcanal, Battle of Savo Island, Battle of Cape Esperance, and the Battle of Tassafaferonga . That’s not counting the defensive actions in and near the DEI or the numerous carrier raids all over the Central and South Pacific. Or the vast resources devoted to Operation Torch. In 1942, the US Navy gutted the IJN, it wasn’t in a holding pattern at all.