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Yeah...the latter would be you.
You wouldn't have spouted your ignorant chirp were that to be true.
what kind of "logic" is that? if it were true then he wouldn't ahve said it?? HUH? LOL
But moving forward, give me some evidence to suggest that the Founding Fathers would be for Obama.
You made the claim that they are against obama, prove your argument. I am certain based on your "extensive" research it should be easy enough for you to provide examples of them being "against obama." LOL
However, my guess is the best you have are out of context quotes that you try to desperately apply to obama even though they don't. Then you will declare yourself the "winner" and a genius even though you failed to substantiate your own argument. LOL
I can answer that....whatever FOXnews tells him.
You're a fucking retard if you don't know the difference between manageable and perpetual..
So, draw the line.
Define it.
Well, my post was in response to someone who did claim that Reagan's debt was "manageable" rather than "perpetual".
No, he didn't.
2009 National Debt - 12.8 Trillion dollars.
Current National Debt - 15.7 Trillion.
Not exactly "doubled".
When Bush left office it was like 7 and now it's 15....
You are simply wrong.
After Bush's 2009 budget (his last), the National Debt stood at 12.8, not "like 7".
Which makes you an excellent example of the wisdom of schools devoting a full year to history classes.
Actually, I had the thought that I wished the wisdom of the founding fathers were more routinely instituted into my education. But I went to the public indoctrination system. And that's my loss. Nice sound clip retort you had though.
Fine, then let's go back to why you didn't cite Ronald Reagan's profligate deficit spending as something the founders would have objected to long before Obama was president.
And how would they feel about the standing military and being the worlds police?
I am sure they would need time to understand the geopolitical nature of our current world. In the end, I think they'd have some serious issues with this.
How about the Highway superfund used to blackmail the States?
They'd throw up all over it.
They did some of the same (Jefferson's Lousiana Purchase being a prime example....but he really did believe everyone needed lots of space...imagine how he'd fell in NYC).
This blackmail is constant and abusive.
The fed can go screw itself.
How do you think they'd feel when they found out growing hemp was a federal crime and that the flowers of that marvlous plant was deemed to be of no medicinal value by the same federal government?
Being smart and inquisitive...my guess is that they would ask to try it...and then decide.
I seriously doubt they would focus on any one president but rather how the country evolved to being the nanny super state that we are now.
Amen.....
My guess is that they would kick just about every president in the balls from Lincoln on.
FDR and Obama would lose their balls (if they ever had any) altogether.
1. I have had this "national debt debate" back in 08 500 times and everyone concurred it was 7 trillion (in 2008)..
PROVE IT! where is your proof?
2. You better damn well believe congress has a say in what is spent - they ONLY DRAFT AND AUTHORIZE SPENDING.
I never said they didn't so why try to put words into my mouth? the point of this discussion is the debt under the president not the congress. So your dishonest attempts to attribute the debt BEFORE he was president to obama makes you look like a dishonest hack.
You do realize Obama's "truth team" is all over the internet destroying data and rewriting history????
Yes, it's a fucking conspiracy.....
I'm sure if you went to USPOL and searched for my older posts you would find links (which will be dead because of Obama's "truth team")
The debates will be there.
I think not. If the founding fathers saw America today, they would be more likely to praise Obama than defy him. I think they were pretty smart guys and would recognize that their vision of the country 200 years ago is in need of some serious tweaking. However, you guys would have hated them. They studied science, read poetry, European newspapers, Plato, hung out in Paris and thought the Bible was bull shit.I just finished a couple hours of studying the Founding Fathers. They gave ominous warnings against people like Obama and I'm convinced that they would resolutely defy Obama were they alive today.
"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." -- Thomas Jefferson
Our founding fathers were Christian libertarians (classical liberals)....
God gives us our "rights" not the government, or man - and the founding fathers understood that - as a matter of fact - it was the basis of our Bill of Rights....
Actually, I had the thought that I wished the wisdom of the founding fathers were more routinely instituted into my education. But I went to the public indoctrination system. And that's my loss. Nice sound clip retort you had though.
Fine, then let's go back to why you didn't cite Ronald Reagan's profligate deficit spending as something the founders would have objected to long before Obama was president.
You do know that Tipp O'Neill rejected Reagan's budget balancing plans, right?
'In February 1981 Reagan presented the Economic Tax Recovery Act to Congress, calling for massive personal and corporate tax cuts, reductions in government spending, and a balanced budget.'
The 1982 Recession . Reagan . WGBH American Experience | PBS
Our founding fathers were Christian libertarians (classical liberals)....
God gives us our "rights" not the government, or man - and the founding fathers understood that - as a matter of fact - it was the basis of our Bill of Rights....
So saith Mr.Nick.....so saith the lord.
You got nothing but shallow mockery. The Founding Fathers were against Obama. You can't deny it.
Which makes you an excellent example of the wisdom of schools devoting a full year to history classes.
Actually, I had the thought that I wished the wisdom of the founding fathers were more routinely instituted into my education. But I went to the public indoctrination system. And that's my loss. Nice sound clip retort you had though.
Fine, then let's go back to why you didn't cite Ronald Reagan's profligate deficit spending as something the founders would have objected to long before Obama was president.
Yes, and there are several that are questionable. Washington has made official statements of public piety as all president's do. However,he has little to say about his own religious beliefs. Some of the founders have by word and deed demonstrated their devotion to God. Washington's devotion was to freedom, liberty, and his country.I think most of them were spiritual but not religious. If you expected to assume a leadership role in the community in 18th century America, it was a given that you would be a member of a Christian church. However being a member of a church and having any real religious beliefs is quite different.Let me be clear. The founding fathers were not founding a theocracy. They knew that was a bad idea. But you can't ignore that they were all deeply spiritual or religious. And that deism card is something libs have played to downplay that reality. Only a few of them like TJ and arguably Ben Franklin were really deists. Most of them were devout Christians.
Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Gouverneur Morris, and James Madison all seemed clearly to be deist in their beliefs.
Hamilton was religious in his youth and old age, but critical of organized religion through most of his life.
The nature of George Washington's religious beliefs has been debated by historians and biographers for over two hundred years. Washington rarely discussed or wrote about his religious and philosophical opinions in any great detail. Unlike orthodox believers he rarely used the word "God" except in non-religious catchphrases such as "thank God," "God knows". Whether his religion was any more than what was required by a man of position, we will never know.
John and Samuel Adams and Patrick Henry were all thought of as very religious men.
There are plenty of accounts of Washington's actions and quotes to show that he was quite devout. That's not even in dispute. I can dig up the quotes if need be, but it's not at all in dispute. When you say things like that, I just feel like you are not being at all honest with me and I can't take your other claims seriously.
Not quite liar:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams
""While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." - George Washington
""Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." - John Adams
""Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." - Thomas Jefferson
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see." Benjamin Franklin
How about you go backj and address the TJ quotes that i posted which run counter to your spin? Or is the that thbe very reason you chose to skip them and pretend that they didn't exist??
Again you found a website that provides SOME quotes of SOME of the founding fathers with no context to show that they were actually referring to. Now show how they apply to this conversation and provide the context that theses quotes were taken from.
You can repost them and I'll look at them. I already know that TJ wasn't much of a believer in organized religion. But pretty much to the a man, the founding fathers were very moral, spiritual or religious. And they were overwhelmingly devoutly Christian and you talked out of your ass on that one. If you want to be taken more seriously then don't spout such nonsense.
Morality, yes. Christianity, No.Not quite liar:
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other. - John Adams
""While we are zealously performing the duties of good citizens and soldiers, we certainly ought not to be inattentive to the higher duties of religion. To the distinguished character of Patriot, it should be our highest glory to add the more distinguished character of Christian." - George Washington
""Suppose a nation in some distant Region should take the Bible for their only law Book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God ... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." - John Adams
""Resistance to tyranny becomes the Christian and social duty of each individual. ... Continue steadfast and, with a proper sense of your dependence on God, nobly defend those rights which heaven gave, and no man ought to take from us." - Thomas Jefferson
"As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and his religion, as he left them to us, is the best the world ever saw, or is likely to see." Benjamin Franklin
If the U.S. was founded on the Christian religion, the Constitution would clearly say so--but it does not. Nowhere does the Constitution say: "The United States is a Christian Nation", or anything even close to that. In fact, the words "Jesus Christ, Christianity, Bible, Creator, Divine, or God" are never mentioned in the Constitution-- not even once. Nowhere in the Constitution is religion mentioned, except in exclusionary terms.
In the Declaration, it mentions "Nature's God" and "Divine Providence", that's the language of Deism, not Christianity.
I believe most of the founding fathers had a strong sense of morality but not necessarily a strong belief in Christianity or any religion and they certainly did not believe they were founding a Christian or even a religious nation.
Let me be clear. The founding fathers were not founding a theocracy. They knew that was a bad idea. But you can't ignore that they were all deeply spiritual or religious. And that deism card is something libs have played to downplay that reality. Only a few of them like TJ and arguably Ben Franklin were really deists. Most of them were devout Christians.
I think most of them were spiritual but not religious. If you expected to assume a leadership role in the community in 18th century America, it was a given that you would be a member of a Christian church. However being a member of a church and having any real religious beliefs is quite different.Let me be clear. The founding fathers were not founding a theocracy. They knew that was a bad idea. But you can't ignore that they were all deeply spiritual or religious. And that deism card is something libs have played to downplay that reality. Only a few of them like TJ and arguably Ben Franklin were really deists. Most of them were devout Christians.
Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Gouverneur Morris, and James Madison all seemed clearly to be deist in their beliefs.
Hamilton was religious in his youth and old age, but critical of organized religion through most of his life.
The nature of George Washington's religious beliefs has been debated by historians and biographers for over two hundred years. Washington rarely discussed or wrote about his religious and philosophical opinions in any great detail. Unlike orthodox believers he rarely used the word "God" except in non-religious catchphrases such as "thank God," "God knows". Whether his religion was any more than what was required by a man of position, we will never know.
John and Samuel Adams and Patrick Henry were all thought of as very religious men.
There are plenty of accounts of Washington's actions and quotes to show that he was quite devout. That's not even in dispute. I can dig up the quotes if need be, but it's not at all in dispute. When you say things like that, I just feel like you are not being at all honest with me and I can't take your other claims seriously.
Fine, then let's go back to why you didn't cite Ronald Reagan's profligate deficit spending as something the founders would have objected to long before Obama was president.
You do know that Tipp O'Neill rejected Reagan's budget balancing plans, right?
'In February 1981 Reagan presented the Economic Tax Recovery Act to Congress, calling for massive personal and corporate tax cuts, reductions in government spending, and a balanced budget.'
The 1982 Recession . Reagan . WGBH American Experience | PBS
That's a fascinating rightwing myth.
The founders weren't cowards. They would have killed monkey boy and destroyed Capital Hill and Wall Street while in full sessions.I just finished a couple hours of studying the Founding Fathers. They gave ominous warnings against people like Obama and I'm convinced that they would resolutely defy Obama were they alive today.
"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." -- Thomas Jefferson
You prix send emails to your "representatives"
I just finished a couple hours of studying the Founding Fathers. They gave ominous warnings against people like Obama and I'm convinced that they would resolutely defy Obama were they alive today.
"We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt." -- Thomas Jefferson
You're a fucking retard if you don't know the difference between manageable and perpetual..
So, draw the line.
Define it.
Here is one study that attempts it. 77% of GDP is the threshold. Your mileage may vary.
'The present study addresses these questions with the help of threshold estimations based on a yearly dataset of 101 developing and developed economies spanning a time period from 1980 to 2008. The estimations establish a threshold of 77 percent public debt-to-GDP ratio. If debt is above this threshold, each additional percentage point of debt costs 0.017 percentage points of annual real growth. The effect is even more pronounced in emerging markets where the threshold is 64 percent debt-to-GDP ratio. In these countries, the loss in annual real growth with each additional percentage point in public debt amounts to 0.02 percentage points. The cumulative effect on real GDP could be substantial. Importantly, the estimations control for other variables that might impact growth, such as the initial level of per-capita-GDP.'
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