Government Regulations Discussion (Philosophical and/or Constitutional)

[manifold]

Sorry, sp, that is not how a modern, informed democracy works in the 21st century, either here or in Europe. You are not an individual alone, but an individual in a country of more than 300 million people bound by culture, tradtion, and history. Disagree all you want, which is your right, but I doubt very much America is going to move down your path.

Surely not.

It's moving from his path, toward yours. My only hope is to slow the pace.

 

[antagon]

skull, your head is the one in the sand like an ostrich. Touch the elders Medicare and Social Security, and they will make sure you are taxed out of existence. No, that is not redistribution of wealth. You want to find out: go live in Cuba or North Korea. Then you will have the cred to talk about it.

I don't want anyone else's SS I want to be able to control the 15% of my lifetime earnings the government uses to fund an illegal Ponzi scam.

They can do what they will with their money.

reverse-ponzi, really. im 40 years from retirement; i doubt SS will be around in 2050, despite all i would have contributed.

starkey, elders cant do shit about the rate of tax, and tax is quite explicitly a redistibution of wealth.

skull pilot: we've got the best tax rates in the developed world. our government has shown the world the right way to spend it. countries that have failed to take care of the poor, elderly, stupid and lazy to a minimum, fail to support economies like ours as a direct consequence.

before you criticize our government, consider the ways that it works directly or indirectly to affect a prosperous society, ways neither you nor i can or will.

 

[Skull Pilot]

skull, your head is the one in the sand like an ostrich. Touch the elders Medicare and Social Security, and they will make sure you are taxed out of existence. No, that is not redistribution of wealth. You want to find out: go live in Cuba or North Korea. Then you will have the cred to talk about it.

I don't want anyone else's SS I want to be able to control the 15% of my lifetime earnings the government uses to fund an illegal Ponzi scam.

They can do what they will with their money.

reverse-ponzi, really. im 40 years from retirement; i doubt SS will be around in 2050, despite all i would have contributed.

starkey, elders cant do shit about the rate of tax, and tax is quite explicitly a redistibution of wealth.

skull pilot: we've got the best tax rates in the developed world. our government has shown the world the right way to spend it. countries that have failed to take care of the poor, elderly, stupid and lazy to a minimum, fail to support economies like ours as a direct consequence.

before you criticize our government, consider the ways that it works directly or indirectly to affect a prosperous society, ways neither you nor i can or will.

There is a point where government gets so big an expensive that it hampers the economy and the prosperity of the people.

This is exactly where we are.

As you can see government spending is nearly 50% of GDP and it's going nowhere but up.

We are at the point where the cost of government and excessive regulation are destroying our chances of becoming financially secure.

 

[MajikMyst]

Skull Pilot, I will say this.. You are a very selfish and selfcentered individual.. But, not unlike other republicans either, so don't feel bad..

Your issue here is this.. Your taxes are not about you.. That is your first error.. There are no services you do not use.. You use them all cause society uses them all.. And your taxes like everyone elses goes to fund our government!! Do you understand that now?? As for taxes being the cingle largest expense?? Your wrong.. Dead wrong and there is no way you can prove otherwise.. My single largest expense right now is my house.. And even with property tax, it is still my single largest expence.. I would guess that renting for some would be their largest.. No property tax there.. For others it could be credit card debt or their vehicle.. In eithe case, taxes make up just a portion of our expences.. But not even close to half..

Now back to topic..

I believe that our government has the right and should regulate everything in our lives that effects us from a standpoint of society.. I don't believe that the government has any business in our private lives.. How we have sex and who we have it with.. Who we marry would be another one the government shouldn't regulate..

We have a right to bare arms, and it should be regulated as much as possible to prevent criminals from getting guns..

Our banks should be regulated as much as possible to prevent us from being ripped off or screwed over.. Any company or company type that profits from screwing over the american people should be regulated.. Healthcare insurance needs to be heavily regulated.. The financial industry needs to be regulated.. There needs to be more transparency..

Imagine what we would be like with no regulations?? No regulations on our food.. We could be served rotten food.. No regulations on medications.. I am happy to know that when I pick up a perscription it isn't rat poison..

We have already seen what happens with a health insuracne industry with no regulations.. Rates continue to rise while coverage and service declines.. I am paying darn near 4 times what I was 20 years ago for less than half the coverage.. And you people think that is ok?? No that shit needs to be regulated..

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

 

[Dr Grump]

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

The bailout was not about the banks failing, it was about the world economy collapsing.

I disagree with both the bolded statements...that is in the eye of the beholder...

 

[MajikMyst]

I don't want anyone else's SS I want to be able to control the 15% of my lifetime earnings the government uses to fund an illegal Ponzi scam.

They can do what they will with their money.

reverse-ponzi, really. im 40 years from retirement; i doubt SS will be around in 2050, despite all i would have contributed.

starkey, elders cant do shit about the rate of tax, and tax is quite explicitly a redistibution of wealth.

skull pilot: we've got the best tax rates in the developed world. our government has shown the world the right way to spend it. countries that have failed to take care of the poor, elderly, stupid and lazy to a minimum, fail to support economies like ours as a direct consequence.

before you criticize our government, consider the ways that it works directly or indirectly to affect a prosperous society, ways neither you nor i can or will.

There is a point where government gets so big an expensive that it hampers the economy and the prosperity of the people.

This is exactly where we are.

As you can see government spending is nearly 50% of GDP and it's going nowhere but up.

We are at the point where the cost of government and excessive regulation are destroying our chances of becoming financially secure.

So?? To make that call???

Where exactly should the GDP be for a nation of over 300 million people?? Be specific please!! You must know or wouldn't say that it is hampering with our prosperity..

There is your problem there skull.. Your logic is flawed and based on inforamtion you couldn't possibly know.. Why is the cost of our government excessive?? Personaly I think portions of it need more funding.. I think education needs a crap ton more fundiung.. I think NASA needs more funding.. And how does regulation exactly prevent us from becomming financially secure.. You want to be financially secure?? Invest in the people of this nation.. Invest in the government!! We can't be an awsome nation when our government can't do anything.. Our electrical grid needs updating?? Who is going to pay for that?? Highways across the nation need repaired, bridges and damns need fixing.. Who is going to pay for all this?? Many of our communications satelites in orbit are aging, they will need to be replaced soon.. How and who will pay for it?? Who is going to put them up in orbit?? The space shuttle is being moth balled and we have no replacement yet..

That is the problem with you republicans.. You don't think about these things.. We need to fund our government.. Because not funding one means not having one that works..

 

[MajikMyst]

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

The bailout was not about the banks failing, it was about the world economy collapsing.

I disagree with both the bolded statements...that is in the eye of the beholder...

Well.. Sort of.. The world economy rippled but we started it.. Even still, letting Fannie Mae and company fail wouldn't have had a big impact on the world economy.. Some other company would have quickly taken their place..

As for my statement.. It was a perfect world type statement.. Right now we aren't the greatest nation.. We haven't been for a long time.. There is more corruption in our private sector than most other nations have in theirs... Oddly enough, Japan would be a good Business model for us to follow... After all, we built their system from the ground up after WWII.. I wonder why we can't do the same here.. I would love to see a law passed where the CEO of a company can't make more than 20x the lowest paid employee.. Of course now watch all the repubs come on here and complain that companies wouldn't be able to higher the best talent.. Well.. That doesn't seem to be a problem in Japan.. And since it is a law, every company will have to abide by it.. I guess that broom pusher gets a raise after all..

 

[Skull Pilot]

Skull Pilot, I will say this.. You are a very selfish and selfcentered individual.. But, not unlike other republicans either, so don't feel bad..

I am not and never have been a repudlican. You are just another person who must pigeonhole people into an ideology you can understand.

Your issue here is this.. Your taxes are not about you.. That is your first error.. There are no services you do not use.. You use them all cause society uses them all.. And your taxes like everyone elses goes to fund our government!!

The government that is too big, too expensive too wasteful and too intrusive you mean?

And excuse me but I pay for the government services I use and I have never had an issue with that other than the government doesn't seem to do a very good job of providing those services. And I also pay for government services I don't use.

Do you understand that now?? As for taxes being the single largest expense?? Your wrong.. Dead wrong and there is no way you can prove otherwise..

Really now?

http://www.taxfoundation.org/files/sr151.pdf

Table 2 shows the full list of taxes Americans pay to the federal government in Washington each year, and Table 3 shows the taxes they pay to state and local governments at home. To make the figures easier to understand, we’ve presented them on a per-household basis—total collections divided by the roughly 113 million U.S. households in 2004. Those who prefer totals can simply multiply the figures by 113,476,000.
In 2004 Americans paid a total of $3 trillion in total taxes—$26,738 per U.S. household. Of those taxes, roughly $2 trillion or $17,338 per household is paid to the federal government, and roughly $1 trillion or $9,400 per household is paid to state and local governments. To give a sense of how large this total tax bill is, if one government agency manually collected all U.S. taxes like a bank teller accepting cash deposits, the agency would have to process $96,211 per second—24 hours per day, seven days per week—for an entire year to collect $3 trillion.

These are 2004 numbers and tell me are you paying less in taxes now or more? In five years will you be paying less in taxes or more?

For 2009 other than taxes the largest average per household expense was housing at 17K per year.

In 2004 you'll see that the average American household paid over 26K in taxes.

So tell me again that taxes are not the largest single annual expenditure.

My single largest expense right now is my house.. And even with property tax, it is still my single largest expence.. I would guess that renting for some would be their largest.. No property tax there.. For others it could be credit card debt or their vehicle.. In eithe case, taxes make up just a portion of our expences.. But not even close to half..

See above. You are obviously not factoring in ALL the taxes you pay because like most American sheep and Ostriches, you do not pay attention to where your money goes.

Now back to topic..

I believe that our government has the right and should regulate everything in our lives that effects us from a standpoint of society.. I don't believe that the government has any business in our private lives.. How we have sex and who we have it with.. Who we marry would be another one the government shouldn't regulate..

So government can force you to buy a certain type of health insurance even if it's more expensive than the one you currently have?

So government can give you tax dollars to companies like GM that have been poorly run for decades?

So government can guarantee mortgages with your money for people who were too dumb to realize they couldn't afford them?

We have a right to bare arms, and it should be regulated as much as possible to prevent criminals from getting guns..

Our banks should be regulated as much as possible to prevent us from being ripped off or screwed over.. Any company or company type that profits from screwing over the american people should be regulated.. Healthcare insurance needs to be heavily regulated.. The financial industry needs to be regulated.. There needs to be more transparency..

Anyone should be able to legally own a firearm. Those found illegally holding firearms should be prosecuted. We already do that. In fact it should be easier for law abiding people to own and carry firearms not harder.

Imagine what we would be like with no regulations?? No regulations on our food.. We could be served rotten food.. No regulations on medications.. I am happy to know that when I pick up a perscription it isn't rat poison..

Where did I say there should be no regulations? Nowhere. Excessive regulation ids the problem. Government eats up nearly 50% of GDP. Tell me if health care being 17% of GDP is unsustainable, how to you justify government eating up 50% of GDP?

We have already seen what happens with a health insuracne industry with no regulations.. Rates continue to rise while coverage and service declines.. I am paying darn near 4 times what I was 20 years ago for less than half the coverage.. And you people think that is ok?? No that shit needs to be regulated..

Insurance is and has been one of the most heavily regulated industries in this country. It is government regulation that does not allow health insurance companies to sell across state lines which by the way would reduce premiums across the board for everyone.

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

The above is the only point on which I agree with you. Government has no business getting involved in the success or failures of any private businesses.

 

[Citizen]

Skull Pilot, I will say this.. You are a very selfish and selfcentered individual.. But, not unlike other republicans either, so don't feel bad..

Your issue here is this.. Your taxes are not about you.. That is your first error.. There are no services you do not use.. You use them all cause society uses them all.. And your taxes like everyone elses goes to fund our government!! Do you understand that now?? As for taxes being the cingle largest expense?? Your wrong.. Dead wrong and there is no way you can prove otherwise.. My single largest expense right now is my house.. And even with property tax, it is still my single largest expence.. I would guess that renting for some would be their largest.. No property tax there.. For others it could be credit card debt or their vehicle.. In eithe case, taxes make up just a portion of our expences.. But not even close to half..

Now back to topic..

I believe that our government has the right and should regulate everything in our lives that effects us from a standpoint of society.. I don't believe that the government has any business in our private lives.. How we have sex and who we have it with.. Who we marry would be another one the government shouldn't regulate..

We have a right to bare arms, and it should be regulated as much as possible to prevent criminals from getting guns..

Our banks should be regulated as much as possible to prevent us from being ripped off or screwed over.. Any company or company type that profits from screwing over the american people should be regulated.. Healthcare insurance needs to be heavily regulated.. The financial industry needs to be regulated.. There needs to be more transparency..

Imagine what we would be like with no regulations?? No regulations on our food.. We could be served rotten food.. No regulations on medications.. I am happy to know that when I pick up a perscription it isn't rat poison..

We have already seen what happens with a health insuracne industry with no regulations.. Rates continue to rise while coverage and service declines.. I am paying darn near 4 times what I was 20 years ago for less than half the coverage.. And you people think that is ok?? No that shit needs to be regulated..

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

Please understand that as citizens of this country we have the right to do anything we want, just as long as we do not infringe upon the individual rights of another individual, and it is the governments job to secure those rights, not dictate what we do, or how we do it.

We as individuals have the right to control our lives, not the government, with the only restraints being not to infringe upon the individual rights of other citizens.

It is not the right of the government to attempt to redistribute the wealth of its citizens, or to decide what they should, or should not do or have, as long as the individual rights of another citizen are not infringed upon.

 

[Skull Pilot]

reverse-ponzi, really. im 40 years from retirement; i doubt SS will be around in 2050, despite all i would have contributed.

starkey, elders cant do shit about the rate of tax, and tax is quite explicitly a redistibution of wealth.

skull pilot: we've got the best tax rates in the developed world. our government has shown the world the right way to spend it. countries that have failed to take care of the poor, elderly, stupid and lazy to a minimum, fail to support economies like ours as a direct consequence.

before you criticize our government, consider the ways that it works directly or indirectly to affect a prosperous society, ways neither you nor i can or will.

There is a point where government gets so big an expensive that it hampers the economy and the prosperity of the people.

This is exactly where we are.

As you can see government spending is nearly 50% of GDP and it's going nowhere but up.

We are at the point where the cost of government and excessive regulation are destroying our chances of becoming financially secure.

So?? To make that call???

Where exactly should the GDP be for a nation of over 300 million people?? Be specific please!! You must know or wouldn't say that it is hampering with our prosperity..

I never said what GDP should be. Take a minute and look at the chart which is government spending as a percentage of GDP and not GDP itself.

Currently government spending is nearly 50% of GDP

There is your problem there skull.. Your logic is flawed and based on information you couldn't possibly know..

I post links to all the information I use. Feel free to post sources that prove I am wrong.

If you bothered to look I got the government spending as a percent of GDP numbers here

US Government Spending As Percent Of GDP in United States 2009-2010 - Federal State Local

So instead of saying I can't possibly know something, prove it.

Why is the cost of our government excessive??

Because government spends money, our money on things it shouldn't.

Personaly I think portions of it need more funding.. I think education needs a crap ton more fundiung.. I think NASA needs more funding.. And how does regulation exactly prevent us from becomming financially secure.. You want to be financially secure?? Invest in the people of this nation.. Invest in the government!!

Invest in government? Tell me just what return do you think you'll get investing in government?

I am happy to invest my money in the free market. In fact I save and invest at least 30% of my gross income which is way more than the average American. But government is chewing up 50% of our GDP thereby making it more expensive to do business, harder to turn a profit and therefore harder to prosper.

We can't be an awsome nation when our government can't do anything.. Our electrical grid needs updating?? Who is going to pay for that??

We pay taxes on our utility bills that are supposed to pay for that. Tell me where do those billions of dollars go?

Highways across the nation need repaired, bridges and damns need fixing.. Who is going to pay for all this??

We pay state and federal gas and excise taxes that are supposed to pay for this. Tell me where have those billions of dollars been going all these years that our roads are in such bad shape?

Many of our communications satelites in orbit are aging, they will need to be replaced soon.. How and who will pay for it??
Who is going to put them up in orbit?? The space shuttle is being moth balled and we have no replacement yet..

Many com satellites are privately owned and companies pay NASA to launch them. And the space shuttle is not an expense we need to fund right now.

That is the problem with you republicans.. You don't think about these things.. We need to fund our government.. Because not funding one means not having one that works..

Again, I am not and never have been a repudlican. And you cannot quote me anywhere saying we should have no government.

 

[Conspiracist]

Now back to topic..

I don't believe that the government has any business in our private lives.. How we have sex and who we have it with.. Who we marry would be another one the government shouldn't regulate..

We have a right to bare arms, and it should be regulated as much as possible to prevent criminals from getting guns..

Very thoughtful post and man, you must love to type! I chose these two things to comment on because I agree with one and not the other.

I agree that the gubment should not regulate marriage or our sex lives so long as it involves consenting adults defined by the state they reside in. Most of us have heard the stories of life long homosexual partners that when one ends up in ICU at hospital they are not allowed admittance because they are not family. This is wrong and should be stopped and I believe I have no business saying who can marry who. I may even disagree with the lifestyle of homosexuals but I am not a judge and jury or God to be able to 100% confirm that what they do is wrong. So I leave that between them and their understanding of God if there is one.

Guns now is another issue. I do believe we need loose regulation to keep criminals and those that have been proven mentally incapable of responsibly owning a firearm from getting them but... The criminals that want guns get them so I believe that anyone that is not a known criminal should have easy access to obtain gun for self protection.

Again nice post.

 

[Anguille]

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

The bailout was not about the banks failing, it was about the world economy collapsing.

I disagree with both the bolded statements...that is in the eye of the beholder...

LOL when I read that I immediately imagined you would object to that if you saw it and I was right.

The US is not the greatest but it is one of the greatest.

 

[antagon]

I don't want anyone else's SS I want to be able to control the 15% of my lifetime earnings the government uses to fund an illegal Ponzi scam.

They can do what they will with their money.

reverse-ponzi, really. im 40 years from retirement; i doubt SS will be around in 2050, despite all i would have contributed.

starkey, elders cant do shit about the rate of tax, and tax is quite explicitly a redistibution of wealth.

skull pilot: we've got the best tax rates in the developed world. our government has shown the world the right way to spend it. countries that have failed to take care of the poor, elderly, stupid and lazy to a minimum, fail to support economies like ours as a direct consequence.

before you criticize our government, consider the ways that it works directly or indirectly to affect a prosperous society, ways neither you nor i can or will.

There is a point where government gets so big an expensive that it hampers the economy and the prosperity of the people.

This is exactly where we are.

As you can see government spending is nearly 50% of GDP and it's going nowhere but up.

We are at the point where the cost of government and excessive regulation are destroying our chances of becoming financially secure.

it is safe to call it an inevitability that government will expand at a rate exceeding the gdp's. your chart shows how it could contract (at the end of wars, for example), but over any decade or two, it is all but granted.

is that really displacement of the private sector? well, public growth in a recession might seem like it, but it can be argued that that expansion could stimulate private-sector re-growth. that's this government's arguement.

the government needs to conserve its expenditure. california is seated in such a destructive cycle, but they dont have recourse to print their own currency. our fed practices in that regard are both precarious and impressive, but are political concessions to a higher tax rate or your thinner government. either of those alternatives could negatively impact our economy.

 

[antagon]

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

The bailout was not about the banks failing, it was about the world economy collapsing.

I disagree with both the bolded statements...that is in the eye of the beholder...

LOL when I read that I immediately imagined you would object to that if you saw it and I was right.

The US is not the greatest but it is one of the greatest.

i think that the US is the greatest. how'd u figure its not?

 

[Dr Grump]

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

The bailout was not about the banks failing, it was about the world economy collapsing.

I disagree with both the bolded statements...that is in the eye of the beholder...

LOL when I read that I immediately imagined you would object to that if you saw it and I was right.

The US is not the greatest but it is one of the greatest.

I'd say it is definitely the most powerful...

..."one" of the greatest? perhaps....

 

[MajikMyst]

Skull.. The reason youi will never prove that taxes are the biggest burdon is that you are only looking at half the picture.. You are spouting off about 26k in taxes and not considering how much people make.. The average household income for 2004 is only 44k.. So you are going to sit here and tell us that someone making 44k a year is actually only getting 18k to live on?? Your nuts!! The highest tax rate the IRS will impose is 35% Barely over a third.. And that is only if you are making millions a year.. Most people at that income level will only see a rate of 15% or 25% at best.. Depending on deductions like house and kids.. I am sorry.. The math doesn't add up.. Even if you count state tax, which some states don't have like mine.. And sales tax, your tax burdon is only marginal.. It is sizable.. But not quite half..

Show me the tax debt for a family with 2 children making 44k.. Hell even a family with 1 child.. Or just someone filing head of household.. Show me the numbers..

Income 2004 - Three-Year-Average Median Household Income by State: 2001-2004

Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[MajikMyst]

Skull Pilot, I will say this.. You are a very selfish and selfcentered individual.. But, not unlike other republicans either, so don't feel bad..

Your issue here is this.. Your taxes are not about you.. That is your first error.. There are no services you do not use.. You use them all cause society uses them all.. And your taxes like everyone elses goes to fund our government!! Do you understand that now?? As for taxes being the cingle largest expense?? Your wrong.. Dead wrong and there is no way you can prove otherwise.. My single largest expense right now is my house.. And even with property tax, it is still my single largest expence.. I would guess that renting for some would be their largest.. No property tax there.. For others it could be credit card debt or their vehicle.. In eithe case, taxes make up just a portion of our expences.. But not even close to half..

Now back to topic..

I believe that our government has the right and should regulate everything in our lives that effects us from a standpoint of society.. I don't believe that the government has any business in our private lives.. How we have sex and who we have it with.. Who we marry would be another one the government shouldn't regulate..

We have a right to bare arms, and it should be regulated as much as possible to prevent criminals from getting guns..

Our banks should be regulated as much as possible to prevent us from being ripped off or screwed over.. Any company or company type that profits from screwing over the american people should be regulated.. Healthcare insurance needs to be heavily regulated.. The financial industry needs to be regulated.. There needs to be more transparency..

Imagine what we would be like with no regulations?? No regulations on our food.. We could be served rotten food.. No regulations on medications.. I am happy to know that when I pick up a perscription it isn't rat poison..

We have already seen what happens with a health insuracne industry with no regulations.. Rates continue to rise while coverage and service declines.. I am paying darn near 4 times what I was 20 years ago for less than half the coverage.. And you people think that is ok?? No that shit needs to be regulated..

I never agreed with the bail out of the financial district.. I think failure is the biggest deterrent we have with companies to keep their nose and books clean.. We should have let all of them fail.. That would have been a huge message to the other ones to watch how they manage their books and what loans to make.. Instead, we bailed them out and the top execs got a bonus..

Please understand.. I know this means jobs and prolly a lot of them.. But companies need to be run right.. We are the greatest nation in the world, which means that our companies are run the best.. Even if it means we have to regulate them.. Ford is doing just fine lately.. They must be doing something right and they didn't take any bail out money..

Please understand that as citizens of this country we have the right to do anything we want, just as long as we do not infringe upon the individual rights of another individual, and it is the governments job to secure those rights, not dictate what we do, or how we do it.

We as individuals have the right to control our lives, not the government, with the only restraints being not to infringe upon the individual rights of other citizens.

It is not the right of the government to attempt to redistribute the wealth of its citizens, or to decide what they should, or should not do or have, as long as the individual rights of another citizen are not infringed upon.

So?? Then what your saying is that your hospital has a right to show me your medical records?? Or are you going to acknowlege that the regulations that keep them private are a good thing??

What you don't understand is that nobody has the right to do what they want.. Try killing someone and see where it gets you..

I have a right to not let criminals have guns.. I don't see the need to take an uzi to the mall with me for protection..

As far as redistributing wealth?? It is the government job to ensure a healthy economy for all companies and citizens.. It is the governments job to insure that everyone is paid a fair and honest wage for services rendered.. It is the governments job to insure that we are paid period!

Your statements are blatantly false!! You can control you life!! Hell.. I certianly don't want to do it.. But trickle up economy never works and never will work.. You can't have a healthy economy when you have this level of poverty and unemployment.. Ok?? The fat cats got rich off of Bush?? Where are all the jobs?? With the 1.35 trillion in tax cuts to the rich.. We should have the lowest unemployment rate in history.. Where are they??

What you morons don't understand is the economy is a lot better when everyone has money to spend.. I am sure there are countless people living in apartments barely making it payday to payday, that if paid a bit better would buy a house.. What would that do to the housing market?? All these people buying a house? Or a car?? Or stereos, televisions, computers, and so forth and so forth? How many jobs would the influx of demand create??

The ecomomy needs to work like a circle.. It needs to get back to the little guy somehow..

 

[Skull Pilot]

Skull.. The reason youi will never prove that taxes are the biggest burdon is that you are only looking at half the picture.. You are spouting off about 26k in taxes and not considering how much people make.. The average household income for 2004 is only 44k.. So you are going to sit here and tell us that someone making 44k a year is actually only getting 18k to live on?? Your nuts!! The highest tax rate the IRS will impose is 35% Barely over a third.. And that is only if you are making millions a year.. Most people at that income level will only see a rate of 15% or 25% at best.. Depending on deductions like house and kids.. I am sorry.. The math doesn't add up.. Even if you count state tax, which some states don't have like mine.. And sales tax, your tax burdon is only marginal.. It is sizable.. But not quite half..

Show me the tax debt for a family with 2 children making 44k.. Hell even a family with 1 child.. Or just someone filing head of household.. Show me the numbers..


Income 2004 - Three-Year-Average Median Household Income by State: 2001-2004

Income tax in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The 26K figure is an average for ALL households. Just as the other expenditures used in my examples are averages for ALL households.

Maybe you should brush up on a little junior high school math.

Before you open your mouth or in this case type and make a fool of yourself, why don't you actually read the info I posted from the tax foundation.

In general, households that earn the most income pay the most dollars of taxes. This is no surprise, since income and payroll taxes make up a very large portion of the nation’s tax bill. Overall, the most tax dollars were paid by households in the top income group. They paid an average of $81,933 in taxes—$57,512 to the federal government in Washington in 2004, and $24,421 to state and local governments at home. Households in the middle income group—which some refer to as the “middle class”—paid an average of $21,194 in taxes, or $13,028 in federal taxes and $8,166 in state and local taxes.
America’s lowest-earning households—those earning less than $23,700 in cash money income in 2004—face the nation’s lowest tax burden. However, they still pay thousands of dollars per year to finance government spending at all levels. Households in the bottom income group paid an average of $4,325 in taxes in 2004, or $1,684 to the federal government and $2,642 to state and local governments.
As is clear from Figure 1, federal taxes make up a much larger portion of the tax bill of upper-income households, while state and local taxes make up a bigger share of the tax bill for lower-income households. Sixty-one percent of the bottom income group’s taxes are paid to state and local governments, while 39 percent are sent to Washington, D.C. In contrast, just 30 percent of the highest-income group’s tax bill goes to state and local governments, leaving 70 percent for Uncle Sam.

 

[Skull Pilot]

So?? Then what your saying is that your hospital has a right to show me your medical records?? Or are you going to acknowlege that the regulations that keep them private are a good thing??

The right to privacy is legally recognized in fact it was one of the arguments made in Roe v. Wade

What you don't understand is that nobody has the right to do what they want.. Try killing someone and see where it gets you..

Killing someone violates their right to life, which by the way is the very first right mentioned in the Constitution.

I have a right to not let criminals have guns.. I don't see the need to take an uzi to the mall with me for protection..

But you do not have the right to stop one from legally owning a gun. If one owns a gun and does not use it to shoot another person then he is not violating the rights of another.

As far as redistributing wealth?? It is the government job to ensure a healthy economy for all companies and citizens.. It is the governments job to insure that everyone is paid a fair and honest wage for services rendered.. It is the governments job to insure that we are paid period!

Tell me where in the Constitution does it say the government is supposed to ensure a healthy economy.

The government cannot intervene in the contracts of private citizens because it has absolutely no legal power to do so.

Your statements are blatantly false!! You can control you life!! Hell.. I certianly don't want to do it..

When the government does not allow us to keep the money we earn, the government is reducing our ability to choose and therefore our liberty.

Soon I will have to buy the type of health insurance the government tells me to buy and not the one I want to buy. tell me how in that example am I free to choose?

The government takes 15% of everything I earn for Social Security yet I have no say where that very large portion of my income is invested and the government uses that money as a slush fund not for my retirement.

In fact, by the time I retire, I will see reduced benefits because the Ponzi scheme will have failed and there won't be enough people contributing to cover my benefits.
If I ran my employees' retirement like the government runs SS, I would be sharing a cell with Bernie Madoff.

But trickle up economy never works and never will work..

I think you mean trickle down. And if you bothered to listen you would se that I am in favor of reducing taxes for ALL Americans not just some.

You can't have a healthy economy when you have this level of poverty and unemployment.. Ok??

But we see that the super duper economy saving stimulus isn't reducing unemployment is it?

Money for Roads not Reducing Unemployment - CBS News

Ten months into President Barack Obama's first economic stimulus plan, a surge in spending on roads and bridges has had no effect on local unemployment and only barely helped the beleaguered construction industry, an Associated Press analysis has found.

So the government is scrambling to redefine its terms

Changing how stimulus jobs are counted - Jan. 11, 2010

Going forward, the White House will only tally jobs one quarter at a time and not attempt to determine a total.

On top of that, the administration has directed Recovery Act recipients to report all jobs funded with stimulus money - regardless of whether they were new jobs or existing ones

What that means is the government will claim the stimulus was responsible for creating or saving a job that was never in jeopardy. In other words the government will lie to you about how effective the stimulus was.

The fat cats got rich off of Bush?? Where are all the jobs?? With the 1.35 trillion in tax cuts to the rich.. We should have the lowest unemployment rate in history.. Where are they??

Fat cats get rich off of every administration no matter who is sitting in the Oval Office.

What you morons don't understand is the economy is a lot better when everyone has money to spend..

And people have more money to spend when the government takes less from us not more.

What you don't seem to understand is that the government cannot spend a dime it does not first take from the taxpayers. then a portion of that dime gets eaten up in the bureaucracy and only a fraction of that dime gets spent on a government program.

Where as if the government left that entire dime in the hands of the people, the whole 10 cents would be infused into the economy either directly as spending or indirectly on investments.

read this

The Broken Window Fallacy

I am sure there are countless people living in apartments barely making it payday to payday, that if paid a bit better would buy a house.. What would that do to the housing market?? All these people buying a house? Or a car?? Or stereos, televisions, computers, and so forth and so forth? How many jobs would the influx of demand create??

The ecomomy needs to work like a circle.. It needs to get back to the little guy somehow..

Those people are free to earn more if they choose. It is their responsibility to earn more not mine to give it to them.

 

[antagon]

And people have more money to spend when the government takes less from us not more.

What you don't seem to understand is that the government cannot spend a dime it does not first take from the taxpayers. then a portion of that dime gets eaten up in the bureaucracy and only a fraction of that dime gets spent on a government program.

Where as if the government left that entire dime in the hands of the people, the whole 10 cents would be infused into the economy either directly as spending or indirectly on investments.

read this

The Broken Window Fallacy

tax and redistribution of wealth is plagued by bureaucracy, yes, but capitalism is plagued by hoarding without it. the entire dime would not be infused back into the economy. study some history and some greater economic thinkers than your broken window analogists.

the bottom line is that redistribution facilitates commerce, which in turn facilitates the creation of wealth. this is the reason why countries with little or no taxation have destitute, jobless citizens, and a very minute, very wealthy few. countries like ours dont require wealth to come from stripping our factors for export, and despite higher rates of tax, these developed economies have less poverty and a domestic component that facilitates the creation of wealth on several tiers.

the pennies in your dime analogy build hard and soft infrastructure, and support government, which through a number of measures, some requiring direct expenditure, help to build a consumer economy in ways the private sector wont.

...and that's just the economy. that is a crucial component of american life, but by no means the only one.

im just surprised youve been in private enterprise for as long as you claim, but cant see some of the policy you criticize acting to your benefit. i would expect as much from folks employed in the shelters of overhead or economists and their libraries, but it makes you out to be a blind-ass despite what youve accomplished.