Historic High for WAGE earners

[jillian]

To Jillian as well as she is using your response:

You are assuming things of the rich that simply aren't true. The vast majority of the rich were not born to Donald Trumps. 80% of millionaires made themselves millionaires.

And no you didn't answer the question. Think about the people you know in your life. Your family, friends and co-workers, person in the cubicle next to you. Why are they not rich? What nefarious force is there keeping them (or you for that matter) from getting rich?

Um... I know that. I'm the daughter of a self-made type. However, he became a self-made type in a different era. In his day, he was the first Jew in management at a particular corporate entity. He ended up going back to college at 30. Now, he couldn't get a job in a mail room or driving a truck without the college education BEFOREHAND.

On the other hand, my dad had three brothers and none of them were ever going to be as successful, not because they were lazy, but because they didn't have the same chutzpah my dad had and has and weren't able to create opportunity the way he did. But my dad is/was unique. They are the norm. So expecting the vast majority of people to act outside the norm isn't reasonable.

And even given that, opportunity doesn't exist the same way now that it did then.

 

[Bern80]

Um... I know that. I'm the daughter of a self-made type. However, he became a self-made type in a different era. In his day, he was the first Jew in management at a particular corporate entity. He ended up going back to college at 30. Now, he couldn't get a job in a mail room or driving a truck without the college education BEFOREHAND.

On the other hand, my dad had three brothers and none of them were ever going to be as successful, not because they were lazy, but because they didn't have the same chutzpah my dad had and has and weren't able to create opportunity the way he did. But my dad is/was unique. They are the norm. So expecting the vast majority of people to act outside the norm isn't reasonable.

And even given that, opportunity doesn't exist the same way now that it did then.

It depends on how you define opportunity. If you define it as that big job promotion are that six figure starting rate, you're right. The fact is you aren't gonna get rich working for other people. The other thing you will notice about most millionaires is that they are self-employed.

the overall point is there is very few extraneous bearriers that can't be overcome. Even you have admitted it isn't 'the man' keeping your relatives down. It's that they don't have the 'chutzpah' or the drive (loosely tranlslated). Now despite that are we suppossed just make them rich somehow?

Of course opportunities aren't the same now as they were then. If anything there are far more of them given our increased demand for goods and services. But stop coppin out and blameing the man cause you can't figure out how to turn that into profit for yourself.

 

[Shogun]

don trump jr is making himself a millionaire? Paris Hilton? nicole ritchie? ANYONE from the goodyear family? Anyone from the Busch family?

Maybe I missed it but could you post your source that suggest 80% of our current millionaires made themselves such.. Im curious to see if your source indicates where in the class structure that 80% pulled themselves from. It really doesn't take much for Don Trump JR to take some of daddies money in order to create opportunity for himself that the average American will never see.



What nefarious force? CAPITALISM. Were it only the case that everyone who works hard and makes every effort to succeed is rewarded with wealth. But, that's not the case and a large reason for it is the necessity of a cheap labor force as required by CAPITOLISM in order to minimize production and mazimize profit margins for a class of people that haven't the first idea what struggling in a mid to lower class is like.


Enron strike a bell? Big Oil achieving windfall profits on the neck of the very consumers AND stations that sell their product mean anything to you? Outsourcing even the most rivial jobs, manufacturing OR service, to a third world country where working for a cracker and a square of toilet paper is a blessing from Visnu itself? Maybe the history of Bell Labs and their monopoly or child labor throughout the 19th century comes to mind? you want an answer regarding what nefarious force is keeping the lower classes living as wage slaves a half a step above share cropping? There you go.


You know, we can use free market excuses to rationalize that company store that Ernie Ford sang about too.

 

[Bern80]

don trump jr is making himself a millionaire? Paris Hilton? nicole ritchie? ANYONE from the goodyear family? Anyone from the Busch family?

Maybe I missed it but could you post your source that suggest 80% of our current millionaires made themselves such.. Im curious to see if your source indicates where in the class structure that 80% pulled themselves from. It really doesn't take much for Don Trump JR to take some of daddies money in order to create opportunity for himself that the average American will never see.

You're not listening. I'm well aware the children of the Hiltons and Trumps are gonna have it made without doing much of anything. the point is when it comes to how people become rich, they are the exception, not the rule.

My source? The Millionaire Next Door. Read it.

What nefarious force? CAPITALISM. Were it only the case that everyone who works hard and makes every effort to succeed is rewarded with wealth. But, that's not the case and a large reason for it is the necessity of a cheap labor force as required by CAPITOLISM in order to minimize production and mazimize profit margins for a class of people that haven't the first idea what struggling in a mid to lower class is like.

Then are definitions of 'work hard' are different. You won't get much argument that a tile layer doesn't do 'hard work'. As far as getting rich requiring 'hard work' it would be more accurate to say that it requires a level of motivation and to some extent, smarts.

Enron strike a bell? Big Oil achieving windfall profits on the neck of the very consumers AND stations that sell their product mean anything to you? Outsourcing even the most rivial jobs, manufacturing OR service, to a third world country where working for a cracker and a square of toilet paper is a blessing from Visnu itself? Maybe the history of Bell Labs and their monopoly or child labor throughout the 19th century comes to mind? you want an answer regarding what nefarious force is keeping the lower classes living as wage slaves a half a step above share cropping? There you go.


You know, we can use free market excuses to rationalize that company store that Ernie Ford sang about too.

Again your answer is wrong. This notion that you have no choice or your stuck no matter how hard you try is simply bull shit. Pretend for a second that you wanted to get rich. What force is really stopping you from doing that?

 

[ReillyT]

Pretend for a second that you wanted to get rich. What force is really stopping you from doing that?

Me? Nothing but a lack of imagination and desire.

The kids that I used to teach from the public schools of Oakland?

Broken homes, violent neighborhoods, some of the worst school districts in the United States, poverty so extreme that some must leave high school to work to support their families (let's not even talk about paying for college), undocumented status (no fault of their own), homelessness, etc.

For most of those kids, being "rich" was something they imagined, but the obstacles were pretty high for even achieving a modest and stable level of income.

 

[Bern80]

Me? Nothing but a lack of imagination and desire.

The kids that I used to teach from the public schools of Oakland?

Broken homes, violent neighborhoods, some of the worst school districts in the United States, poverty so extreme that some must leave high school to work to support their families (let's not even talk about paying for college), undocumented status (no fault of their own), homelessness, etc.

For most of those kids, being "rich" was something they imagined, but the obstacles were pretty high for even achieving a modest and stable level of income.

Is it going to be more difficult for some? Of course. It will be harder for your students than it would be for you, just as it would harder for you than Ivanka Trump.

What do you propose we do about it? Should we do anything about it? What mechanisms do you put in place to afford your students the same footing your at. What mechanisms should we put in place to afford you the same opportunities as a Trump?

 

[jillian]

Is it going to be more difficult for some? Of course. It will be harder for your students than it would be for you, just as it would harder for you than Ivanka Trump.

What do you propose we do about it? Should we do anything about it? What mechanisms do you put in place to afford your students the same footing your at. What mechanisms should we put in place to afford you the same opportunities as a Trump?

Even the Donald didn't make it on his own. Did he make the most of his opportunities? Absolutely. But he also had a daddy who had built tons of housing for working class people and got rich that way while doing good.

See that's the thing. First of all, we're talking about shrinking middle class. That's the result of shrinking opportunity. It also takes a lot more to be middle class now, depending on where one lives. (And yes, I know, I could live on a farm and raise my own food instead of in NYC). Basically, we're talking about intelligent economic policy... not give-aways. No one is saying that you make sure everyone is rich. Even if we wanted to, we couldn't do that. We are talking about decent educational systems and protecting the types of jobs that lead to upward mobility from leaving the country. Engage in a policy of alternative energy research and open up whole new aspects of our economy.

And, no, working for oneself is not the only way people get rich. People also get rich by speculating ... in stocks; in oil; in energy... in things that actually hurt middle class people. As Shogun said, remember Enron?

I'd also add that one can't take chances if one needs even the measley income from a cruddy job that they have. There are bills to pay. Children to care for. Not everyone can afford the risk it would take to make money, even if they are of an inclination. So then, you're like me. Doing well, but not wealthy. Professional license. Benefits. But then the kid's summer camp costs thousands of dollars. A three bedroom condo in my neighborhood now goes for about $900,000. Gas is about $3.50 a gallon. By the time you turn around, where's savings? Minimal at best. And I do well. How does someone making minimum wage get ahead?

 

[Shogun]

You're not listening. I'm well aware the children of the Hiltons and Trumps are gonna have it made without doing much of anything. the point is when it comes to how people become rich, they are the exception, not the rule.

My source? The Millionaire Next Door. Read it.



HOW people become rich? kinda rhetorical, isnt it? kinda like saying "HOW growing people become tall"? Of COURSE, to paraphrase your sole source, spending less than you bring in leads to a net surplus. no shit. That, however, says NOTHING about the comparative opportunities between every level of wealth status. I don't care how long some ghetto child refrains from buying rims when his highest lifetime potential income remains in the mid 20k's. Blaming personal life choices won't give that same ghetto child a scholarship to harvard even if he works to the best of his ability in school. You ignore the class nepotism that occurs for the sake of some American dream that WAS reachable 40 years ago through hard work but, similar to how we found ourselves rife with child labor, has been traded for a cheap plastic version that was made in china for the sake of profit margin.



Then are definitions of 'work hard' are different. You won't get much argument that a tile layer doesn't do 'hard work'. As far as getting rich requiring 'hard work' it would be more accurate to say that it requires a level of motivation and to some extent, smarts.


oh yea.. and the OPPORTUNITY that jillian and I keep bringing up. How many rich kids have to work at mcdonalds after school to pay for car insurance, conveying a lack of motivation, but then go on to follow the family wealth scheme like every progeny member of the firestone family? The Hilton fam? Do you think Ken Lay was a big fan of motivation over hard work? What is "smarts" anyway? Is that something like "book learnin"?


Again your answer is wrong. This notion that you have no choice or your stuck no matter how hard you try is simply bull shit. Pretend for a second that you wanted to get rich. What force is really stopping you from doing that?


I've told you. Capitalism. If you are a banboi of free market capitolism then so be it. Of COURSE you'll see my asnwer as bullshit. Make sure you hum Sixteen Tons while telling me about my many, many choices to choose one of many, many shitty low paying jobs that are the poduct of capitolism with EVIDENCE of the exodus of manufactuing jobs to china and tech jobs to india. I mean, shit. Taking a job at wal mart for 8 dollars and no benefits is only a shhort delay to the BIG BUCKS! You read a book so it MUST be true!

 

[Shogun]

Is it going to be more difficult for some? Of course. It will be harder for your students than it would be for you, just as it would harder for you than Ivanka Trump.

What do you propose we do about it? Should we do anything about it? What mechanisms do you put in place to afford your students the same footing your at. What mechanisms should we put in place to afford you the same opportunities as a Trump?

SHould we have done anything about Child Labor? I mean, a kid always has a choice to NOT work on the cheap so their family can starve, right? Hell, Earnie Ford didn't have to eat! let him hike 50 miles if he doesn't like the company store. Monopolies RAPING the consumer over telecom? Hell, stay off the phone, right?

As with today, Don't like OIL profits? Don't drive! right?


America doesn't exist for the sake of a corporate entity or wealthy people to have a cheap labor force. Pretending that rich people have the same opportunity for rising in class hierarchy as middle and lower income, who apparently are just too lazy to take advantage, is a goddamn joke.

 

[ReillyT]

Is it going to be more difficult for some? Of course. It will be harder for your students than it would be for you, just as it would harder for you than Ivanka Trump.

What do you propose we do about it? Should we do anything about it? What mechanisms do you put in place to afford your students the same footing your at. What mechanisms should we put in place to afford you the same opportunities as a Trump?

Should we do anything about it? Yes.

What should we do?

That is the million dollar question for which I don't have a great answer. However, I think step 1 is acknowledging that those who succeed don't necessarily succeed because they are smarter, harder working, or more imaginative. By the same token, many that have difficulty aren't satisfied, stupid or lack industry. [I am not suggesting you said these things.]

There is a reason that the many of the kids in Oakland inner city schools will live much of their lives in poverty while kids in private schools or better communities will rest comfortably in upper middle class. There is a distinct lack of comparative opportunity that many people face, and there is also a large element of luck involved.

Once one accepts this, I don't know that there is an easy answer for how to solve the problem. My first inclination though is that if you want better outputs, you have to invest sufficient inputs. I am sure much more is required than merely this, but I see this as an unavoidable first step.

 

[Shogun]

We could stop putting investor gains in front of an American standard of living on the scale of importance. Again, this nation doesn't exist so that Trump, LLC can have limited liability.



Tarrifs on "Amercan" companies that export labor while using the US as it's consumer market. Tax breaks only for wealthy that invest in the US. Enforce the estate tax since income from an inheritance is STILL income. Create jobs in the US without crying like little bitches when your yearly income is 100k less than the expected million. Dont like it? Take your fucking ass to India or china where you've invested in your labor pool.

 

[ReillyT]

I'd also add that one can't take chances if one needs even the measley income from a cruddy job that they have. There are bills to pay. Children to care for. Not everyone can afford the risk it would take to make money, even if they are of an inclination. So then, you're like me. Doing well, but not wealthy. Professional license. Benefits. But then the kid's summer camp costs thousands of dollars. A three bedroom condo in my neighborhood now goes for about $900,000. Gas is about $3.50 a gallon. By the time you turn around, where's savings? Minimal at best. And I do well. How does someone making minimum wage get ahead?

Economists have done studies on precisely this with respect to poor farmers in Africa. It is called a fractal poverty trap. Suppose person A needs X amount of dollars to invest in new machinery/ send their kids to school/ etc., which would enable them to escape poverty in the future. If a person is close to amount X, they will save and invest in the future. If a person is far away from amount X, then they will focus on consumption, because they quite reasonably factor in all of life's uncertainties and make the rational choice to satisfy their most pressing needs rather than hope for an outcome of high uncertainty and a long time-horizon. So, for very poor people, the rational choice is to consume. Anyway, I find it interesting.

 

[jillian]

Economists have done studies on precisely this with respect to poor farmers in Africa. It is called a fractal poverty trap. Suppose person A needs X amount of dollars to invest in new machinery/ send their kids to school/ etc., which would enable them to escape poverty in the future. If a person is close to amount X, they will save and invest in the future. If a person is far away from amount X, then they will focus on consumption, because they quite reasonably factor in all of life's uncertainties and make the rational choice to satisfy their most pressing needs rather than hope for an outcome of high uncertainty and a long time-horizon. So, for very poor people, the rational choice is to consume. Anyway, I find it interesting.

Fractal poverty, huh? I didn't know it had a name. But I used to see it in my clients. And I've seen it in some people I know very well. It is a rational decision, obviously, but seems that the less opportunity people have, the more they are going to make the decision to protect what little they have, even if it isn't much, and even if making a bolder decision could change their lives.

 

[ReillyT]

Fractal poverty, huh? I didn't know it had a name. But I used to see it in my clients. And I've seen it in some people I know very well. It is a rational decision, obviously, but seems that the less opportunity people have, the more they are going to make the decision to protect what little they have, even if it isn't much, and even if making a bolder decision could change their lives.

I got all excited because I just read something about it. I guess it is really just common sense that economists have gotten around to naming. Thanks for humoring me.

 

[jillian]

I got all excited because I just read something about it. I guess it is really just common sense that economists have gotten around to naming. Thanks for humoring me.

Heh... I wasn't humoring you, though. It's actually something that interests me as a life condition. Also, let's face it, it's a lot easier to take advantage of opportunity when there's a safety net in case it doesn't pan out.

 

[nibor]

FQuality,?? See my post above.

As per dollar of income, is irrelevant. What is relevant, as far as wages go, the ability to buy and own, and the ability to get (whether paid for or not) health care and dental care.....

Read it again, ONE CAR per family. They didnt fail to own those things because they werent invented yet, they failed to own things because they were stretched to their economic limit, otherwise they all would have owned a bigger better more expensive : CAR, STEREO, HOUSE, etc. Those things were invented then, right"

Fact is, today we can produce them so much cheaper, anyone can own one. Under PRESIDENT Bush, we have continued to improve economically at all levels of income.

If cheap junk bobbles is all it takes to make you happy dude then have at your wonderland..................stretched to their economic limits.............hmmmm are you sure, what I saw was much fewer people forced to live pay check to pay check with no financial backing except a 401k but I guess it all depends where you are???????

 

[Bern80]

Should we do anything about it? Yes.

What should we do?

That is the million dollar question for which I don't have a great answer. However, I think step 1 is acknowledging that those who succeed don't necessarily succeed because they are smarter, harder working, or more imaginative. By the same token, many that have difficulty aren't satisfied, stupid or lack industry. [I am not suggesting you said these things.]

Kinda hard when you get step one wrong. Please, please do some fact checking and educate yourselves as to the backgrounds the the rich come from and how they got to be rich.

There is a reason that the many of the kids in Oakland inner city schools will live much of their lives in poverty while kids in private schools or better communities will rest comfortably in upper middle class. There is a distinct lack of comparative opportunity that many people face, and there is also a large element of luck involved.

Again I acknowledge not everyone is on the same footing at the same time this point illustrates the real fundamental difference as to why I disagree with people like you Jillian and Shogun. This is a fact you're simply going to have to accept. The majority of rich didn't get that way through luck. They didn't get that way through a silver spoon. the overwheling majority of people got there by hard work.

That is the main difference between rich and poor believe it or not. Those that got rich didn't care what obstacles were in the way. They don't sit and wait for people to present opportunities to them. They set a goal and come hell or high water they figure out a way to get there. All the policies you tout and all these new opportunities you say we need to present, none of the people with the actual drive give a rats ass about them. They have a fundamental understanding that it isn't anyone elses job to make them rich.

 

[Shogun]

Again I acknowledge not everyone is on the same footing at the same time this point illustrates the real fundamental difference as to why I disagree with people like you Jillian and Shogun. This is a fact you're simply going to have to accept. The majority of rich didn't get that way through luck. They didn't get that way through a silver spoon. the overwheling majority of people got there by hard work.

That is the main difference between rich and poor believe it or not. Those that got rich didn't care what obstacles were in the way. They don't sit and wait for people to present opportunities to them. They set a goal and come hell or high water they figure out a way to get there. All the policies you tout and all these new opportunities you say we need to present, none of the people with the actual drive give a rats ass about them. They have a fundamental understanding that it isn't anyone elses job to make them rich.

I'll invite you to post a source beyond a single book that basically boils down to "spend less than you can save" which, again, is HARDLY reflective of a MAJORITY. But, im a sucker for evidence so if you can find support then post it.

Searching for that one open door is probably not on the itinerary with every other facet of live that the middle and lower classes get to live with that upp class will never know about. Tell me Ted Turner knows the frustration of child care. Of making a car note for transportation to work. Of college loans. Of making a mortgage. It's not a simple matter of spending less than one makes, dude. Sure, SOME people blow their money of rims and those people will never amount to much. BUT, pretending that America pays off for mere hard work and dedication to responsibility is willfully short short sighted and purposfully blind to the social impact of, AGAIN, capitalism. There is a reason Cubans embraced communism after the fall of a corrupt Batista government willing to whore out that nation's resources for profit margins of capitalism. It was no more THEIR laziness that kept them in cuban ghettos than it is the middle and lower classes when profit margins become more important than an America middle class living standard. Paying for labor in India on the cheap does NOT increase opportunity and it sure as hell doesn't allow for the same hard working success that your grandfather knew back when all one had to do was go get a job.


And, again, if your wealthy people don't like it they can always move to India where they have all kinds of cheap labor to choose from within reach.


ps, I just read the Zombie Survival Guide this weekend. A single book doesn't make the subject true. Writing a book on the fair tax does not make it fair.

 

[ReillyT]

Kinda hard when you get step one wrong. Please, please do some fact checking and educate yourselves as to the backgrounds the the rich come from and how they got to be rich.

What does that even mean?

Do some rich people come from poor backgrounds? Sure, some do. So what?

Is your argument that because amongst the rich some percentage came from the lower classes, we therefore have what amounts to a society of equal opportunity?

 

[Shogun]

What does that even mean?

Do some rich people come from poor backgrounds? Sure, some do. So what?

Is your argument that because amongst the rich some percentage came from the lower classes, we therefore have what amounts to a society of equal opportunity?

Thats what IM saying.. I'd need to see a source beyond a single book too. It's ridiculous to suggest that the greatest factor involved in social mobility is work ethic and responsible financial planning. I mean, I guess some ghetto mamma COULD save an extra grand each year if she stops eating and makes her kids walk their own preschool asses to school.