Honest and open debate on gun control

[2aguy]

Taxing guns to make them too expensive for people to exercise their right to arms violates that right to arms in exactly the same manner that taxing abortions to make them too expensive for women to have one violates their right to choose.
Infringement. Unarguably. Fail.
And so, criminals will still get guns. Fail.

Incorrect, it's already being done for machine guns and it did not Fail. Government is allowed to tax you to hell and back for any damn reason they want to. Well except to vote that is.

And so with the vote so with having a gun....it is a right, just like voting, thanks for proving our point for us....

I didn't say they could take it away. What I said is they can use the tax stamp process and other taxes to make it too expensive for most people to buy them.

why should we make them harder for peaceful, law abiding people to buy them...they ain't the ones using them to kill other people....

here is an original idea....how about we try to stop actual criminals with 40 convictions who get arrested on a gun charge from using guns to murder people....you know, something that will actually lower the gun murder rate?

It's not about lowering the murder rate it's about control.

and not one thing you want adds to "control" since criminals will get around your tax stamp idea as easily as they do the other laws meant to prevent them from getting guns.

 

[danielpalos]

Yes, a well regulated Militia is much more effective than any more anarchic gun lovers without a Constitutional clue or a Constitutional Cause.

 

[2aguy]

Taxing guns to make them too expensive for people to exercise their right to arms violates that right to arms in exactly the same manner that taxing abortions to make them too expensive for women to have one violates their right to choose.
Infringement. Unarguably. Fail.
And so, criminals will still get guns. Fail.

Incorrect, it's already being done for machine guns and it did not Fail. Government is allowed to tax you to hell and back for any damn reason they want to. Well except to vote that is.

And so with the vote so with having a gun....it is a right, just like voting, thanks for proving our point for us....

I didn't say they could take it away. What I said is they can use the tax stamp process and other taxes to make it too expensive for most people to buy them.

why should we make them harder for peaceful, law abiding people to buy them...they ain't the ones using them to kill other people....

here is an original idea....how about we try to stop actual criminals with 40 convictions who get arrested on a gun charge from using guns to murder people....you know, something that will actually lower the gun murder rate?

It's not about lowering the murder rate it's about control.

and see...that is the problem with gun grabbers and their fellow travelers, the gun supporters who want to give up rights to appease the gun grabbers...which never, ever works.....you just give up all of your rights a little at a time...

The focus should be on stopping criminals....and the absolute only way to do that is to catch them and lock them up for a long time.......anything else is stupid.....

why "control" the people not committing the crime.......what is the fucking point of that.....do you not see how illogical that is.....sure....you can make more people comlply because law abiding people will obey whatever stupid law you pass......but the criminals.......you know....the actual people killing people.........won't comply so you have achieved nothing important........

do you understand that?

The only way....is to lock up criminals who use guns...they are the problem.....and they all have long criminal records and repeat offenses....


and what is it with the focus on "FIRST CRIMES".....is this a new approach by e gun grabbers....

here is a clue......"First criminals" are not the fucking problem........the career, violent criminals with years of violent criminal behavior are the problem............focus on them, and you reduce the murder rate.....

 

[RKMBrown]

Incorrect, it's already being done for machine guns and it did not Fail. Government is allowed to tax you to hell and back for any damn reason they want to. Well except to vote that is.

And so with the vote so with having a gun....it is a right, just like voting, thanks for proving our point for us....

I didn't say they could take it away. What I said is they can use the tax stamp process and other taxes to make it too expensive for most people to buy them.

why should we make them harder for peaceful, law abiding people to buy them...they ain't the ones using them to kill other people....

here is an original idea....how about we try to stop actual criminals with 40 convictions who get arrested on a gun charge from using guns to murder people....you know, something that will actually lower the gun murder rate?

It's not about lowering the murder rate it's about control.

and not one thing you want adds to "control" since criminals will get around your tax stamp idea as easily as they do the other laws meant to prevent them from getting guns.

You're confused. The libtards are trying to make it easier for criminals and harder for citizens to defend themselves. This is about power for criminals, such as government power.

 

[RKMBrown]

Incorrect, it's already being done for machine guns and it did not Fail. Government is allowed to tax you to hell and back for any damn reason they want to. Well except to vote that is.

And so with the vote so with having a gun....it is a right, just like voting, thanks for proving our point for us....

I didn't say they could take it away. What I said is they can use the tax stamp process and other taxes to make it too expensive for most people to buy them.

why should we make them harder for peaceful, law abiding people to buy them...they ain't the ones using them to kill other people....

here is an original idea....how about we try to stop actual criminals with 40 convictions who get arrested on a gun charge from using guns to murder people....you know, something that will actually lower the gun murder rate?

It's not about lowering the murder rate it's about control.

and see...that is the problem with gun grabbers and their fellow travelers, the gun supporters who want to give up rights to appease the gun grabbers...which never, ever works.....you just give up all of your rights a little at a time...

The focus should be on stopping criminals....and the absolute only way to do that is to catch them and lock them up for a long time.......anything else is stupid.....

why "control" the people not committing the crime.......what is the fucking point of that.....do you not see how illogical that is.....sure....you can make more people comlply because law abiding people will obey whatever stupid law you pass......but the criminals.......you know....the actual people killing people.........won't comply so you have achieved nothing important........

do you understand that?

The only way....is to lock up criminals who use guns...they are the problem.....and they all have long criminal records and repeat offenses....


and what is it with the focus on "FIRST CRIMES".....is this a new approach by e gun grabbers....

here is a clue......"First criminals" are not the fucking problem........the career, violent criminals with years of violent criminal behavior are the problem............focus on them, and you reduce the murder rate.....

We're talking about libtards, it's about fucking things up not making them better. Libtards only give a shit about taking things from other people and pissing on everything. We're talking about the screw ups of this world that can't do anything right. First crimes, pre-crime, for the children, throwing grandma off the cliff, are the only arguments the libtards have for taking away our rights. The republicans have no balls, they are not willing to fight for our rights. They side with the libtards. You folks are voting for the wrong party.

 

[2aguy]

And so with the vote so with having a gun....it is a right, just like voting, thanks for proving our point for us....

I didn't say they could take it away. What I said is they can use the tax stamp process and other taxes to make it too expensive for most people to buy them.

why should we make them harder for peaceful, law abiding people to buy them...they ain't the ones using them to kill other people....

here is an original idea....how about we try to stop actual criminals with 40 convictions who get arrested on a gun charge from using guns to murder people....you know, something that will actually lower the gun murder rate?

It's not about lowering the murder rate it's about control.

and see...that is the problem with gun grabbers and their fellow travelers, the gun supporters who want to give up rights to appease the gun grabbers...which never, ever works.....you just give up all of your rights a little at a time...

The focus should be on stopping criminals....and the absolute only way to do that is to catch them and lock them up for a long time.......anything else is stupid.....

why "control" the people not committing the crime.......what is the fucking point of that.....do you not see how illogical that is.....sure....you can make more people comlply because law abiding people will obey whatever stupid law you pass......but the criminals.......you know....the actual people killing people.........won't comply so you have achieved nothing important........

do you understand that?

The only way....is to lock up criminals who use guns...they are the problem.....and they all have long criminal records and repeat offenses....


and what is it with the focus on "FIRST CRIMES".....is this a new approach by e gun grabbers....

here is a clue......"First criminals" are not the fucking problem........the career, violent criminals with years of violent criminal behavior are the problem............focus on them, and you reduce the murder rate.....

We're talking about libtards, it's about fucking things up not making them better. Libtards only give a shit about taking things from other people and pissing on everything. We're talking about the screw ups of this world that can't do anything right. First crimes, pre-crime, for the children, throwing grandma off the cliff, are the only arguments the libtards have for taking away our rights. The republicans have no balls, they are not willing to fight for our rights. They side with the libtards. You folks are voting for the wrong party.

Well, until the libertarians or Tea Party get more power the only thing stopping democrats is simply keeping them out of office...they can't pass laws if they aren't in office. So while the Republicans suck, they suck less than the democrats do....so we have to hole the line until the libertarians or Tea Party get stronger in the Republican party.....and keep in mind, there are several Tea Party and Libertarian candidates on the republican slate of Presidential candidates.

 

[danielpalos]

An honest and open debate about gun control: Gun control is a State's sovereign right.

Gun prohibition is not due to an implied Commerce Clause regarding States and our explicit federal Commerce Clause in Any case of Omission in a State Constitution.

Why are gun lovers not willing or able to convince their own elected representatives who Only make laws for Persons considered to be specifically unconnected with Militia service, well regulated; that they are able to be responsible enough with their Arms, to not need as much gun control from a State addressing its domestic Tranquilly and security needs.

 

[RKMBrown]

I didn't say they could take it away. What I said is they can use the tax stamp process and other taxes to make it too expensive for most people to buy them.

why should we make them harder for peaceful, law abiding people to buy them...they ain't the ones using them to kill other people....

here is an original idea....how about we try to stop actual criminals with 40 convictions who get arrested on a gun charge from using guns to murder people....you know, something that will actually lower the gun murder rate?

It's not about lowering the murder rate it's about control.

and see...that is the problem with gun grabbers and their fellow travelers, the gun supporters who want to give up rights to appease the gun grabbers...which never, ever works.....you just give up all of your rights a little at a time...

The focus should be on stopping criminals....and the absolute only way to do that is to catch them and lock them up for a long time.......anything else is stupid.....

why "control" the people not committing the crime.......what is the fucking point of that.....do you not see how illogical that is.....sure....you can make more people comlply because law abiding people will obey whatever stupid law you pass......but the criminals.......you know....the actual people killing people.........won't comply so you have achieved nothing important........

do you understand that?

The only way....is to lock up criminals who use guns...they are the problem.....and they all have long criminal records and repeat offenses....


and what is it with the focus on "FIRST CRIMES".....is this a new approach by e gun grabbers....

here is a clue......"First criminals" are not the fucking problem........the career, violent criminals with years of violent criminal behavior are the problem............focus on them, and you reduce the murder rate.....

We're talking about libtards, it's about fucking things up not making them better. Libtards only give a shit about taking things from other people and pissing on everything. We're talking about the screw ups of this world that can't do anything right. First crimes, pre-crime, for the children, throwing grandma off the cliff, are the only arguments the libtards have for taking away our rights. The republicans have no balls, they are not willing to fight for our rights. They side with the libtards. You folks are voting for the wrong party.

Well, until the libertarians or Tea Party get more power the only thing stopping democrats is simply keeping them out of office...they can't pass laws if they aren't in office. So while the Republicans suck, they suck less than the democrats do....so we have to hole the line until the libertarians or Tea Party get stronger in the Republican party.....and keep in mind, there are several Tea Party and Libertarian candidates on the republican slate of Presidential candidates.

Uhmm republicans are not much better. Tea party is dead... look at the son of a bitches H1B visas up our asses... these assholes in the republican party don't give a shit about America. Yeah ok there may be one or two republicans that do... but one or two is no reason to vote for all of them.

 

[2aguy]

why should we make them harder for peaceful, law abiding people to buy them...they ain't the ones using them to kill other people....

here is an original idea....how about we try to stop actual criminals with 40 convictions who get arrested on a gun charge from using guns to murder people....you know, something that will actually lower the gun murder rate?

It's not about lowering the murder rate it's about control.

and see...that is the problem with gun grabbers and their fellow travelers, the gun supporters who want to give up rights to appease the gun grabbers...which never, ever works.....you just give up all of your rights a little at a time...

The focus should be on stopping criminals....and the absolute only way to do that is to catch them and lock them up for a long time.......anything else is stupid.....

why "control" the people not committing the crime.......what is the fucking point of that.....do you not see how illogical that is.....sure....you can make more people comlply because law abiding people will obey whatever stupid law you pass......but the criminals.......you know....the actual people killing people.........won't comply so you have achieved nothing important........

do you understand that?

The only way....is to lock up criminals who use guns...they are the problem.....and they all have long criminal records and repeat offenses....


and what is it with the focus on "FIRST CRIMES".....is this a new approach by e gun grabbers....

here is a clue......"First criminals" are not the fucking problem........the career, violent criminals with years of violent criminal behavior are the problem............focus on them, and you reduce the murder rate.....

We're talking about libtards, it's about fucking things up not making them better. Libtards only give a shit about taking things from other people and pissing on everything. We're talking about the screw ups of this world that can't do anything right. First crimes, pre-crime, for the children, throwing grandma off the cliff, are the only arguments the libtards have for taking away our rights. The republicans have no balls, they are not willing to fight for our rights. They side with the libtards. You folks are voting for the wrong party.

Well, until the libertarians or Tea Party get more power the only thing stopping democrats is simply keeping them out of office...they can't pass laws if they aren't in office. So while the Republicans suck, they suck less than the democrats do....so we have to hole the line until the libertarians or Tea Party get stronger in the Republican party.....and keep in mind, there are several Tea Party and Libertarian candidates on the republican slate of Presidential candidates.

Uhmm republicans are not much better. Tea party is dead... look at the son of a bitches H1B visas up our asses... these assholes in the republican party don't give a shit about America. Yeah ok there may be one or two republicans that do... but one or two is no reason to vote for all of them.

The best reason to vote for republicans.....hilary, if elected will be able to appoint 2,3 or 4 supreme court justices, and they will be vetted for extreme anti gun rulings.......

Keeping congress, at least the Senate in Republican hands is vital for gun rights...and a Republican President is better than hilary....

And any republican, as flawed as they are, they are not hostile to the country he way democrats are...

 

[MikeK]

You guys always say that your ideas will prevent death and injury.....that is called magic thinking.......you say making guns more expensive will keep guns out of the hands of criminals....they steal them...that costs nothing....they give money to people who can pass all of your gun control laws to buy them these guns....bypassing your tax stamps....

and tax stamps will not prevent one death or crime....but it will keep law abiding citizens, especially the poor from buying and owning guns for their own protection....people who live in violent places where criminals get guns easily, where the innocent have little protection by the police and are left to the mercy of violent, gun armed criminals...

I didn't suggest anything other than adding a requirement to the existing purchasing process that would ensure the purchaser of a firearm is sufficiently knowledgeable to own it and to require that some level of training be required when that competence is not demonstrated.

This requirement is something a licensed gun dealer should be able to certify in a few minutes and it is probable that the vast majority of prospective purchasers will be immediately certifiable. Would you agree that those who are not certifiable should not be handling a device which is capable of killing or injuring some innocent person?

 

[RKMBrown]

It's not about lowering the murder rate it's about control.

and see...that is the problem with gun grabbers and their fellow travelers, the gun supporters who want to give up rights to appease the gun grabbers...which never, ever works.....you just give up all of your rights a little at a time...

The focus should be on stopping criminals....and the absolute only way to do that is to catch them and lock them up for a long time.......anything else is stupid.....

why "control" the people not committing the crime.......what is the fucking point of that.....do you not see how illogical that is.....sure....you can make more people comlply because law abiding people will obey whatever stupid law you pass......but the criminals.......you know....the actual people killing people.........won't comply so you have achieved nothing important........

do you understand that?

The only way....is to lock up criminals who use guns...they are the problem.....and they all have long criminal records and repeat offenses....


and what is it with the focus on "FIRST CRIMES".....is this a new approach by e gun grabbers....

here is a clue......"First criminals" are not the fucking problem........the career, violent criminals with years of violent criminal behavior are the problem............focus on them, and you reduce the murder rate.....

We're talking about libtards, it's about fucking things up not making them better. Libtards only give a shit about taking things from other people and pissing on everything. We're talking about the screw ups of this world that can't do anything right. First crimes, pre-crime, for the children, throwing grandma off the cliff, are the only arguments the libtards have for taking away our rights. The republicans have no balls, they are not willing to fight for our rights. They side with the libtards. You folks are voting for the wrong party.

Well, until the libertarians or Tea Party get more power the only thing stopping democrats is simply keeping them out of office...they can't pass laws if they aren't in office. So while the Republicans suck, they suck less than the democrats do....so we have to hole the line until the libertarians or Tea Party get stronger in the Republican party.....and keep in mind, there are several Tea Party and Libertarian candidates on the republican slate of Presidential candidates.

Uhmm republicans are not much better. Tea party is dead... look at the son of a bitches H1B visas up our asses... these assholes in the republican party don't give a shit about America. Yeah ok there may be one or two republicans that do... but one or two is no reason to vote for all of them.

The best reason to vote for republicans.....hilary, if elected will be able to appoint 2,3 or 4 supreme court justices, and they will be vetted for extreme anti gun rulings.......

Keeping congress, at least the Senate in Republican hands is vital for gun rights...and a Republican President is better than hilary....

And any republican, as flawed as they are, they are not hostile to the country he way democrats are...

screw that I'll vote for the best candidate period... and it won't be a socialist or anyone that supports h1b visas.

 

[MikeK]

screw that I'll vote for the best candidate period... and it won't be a socialist or anyone that supports h1b visas.

RKM,

Are you wealthy? If not, would you consider voting for Bernie Sanders? If not, why not.

Thanks in advance for your response.

 

[RKMBrown]

screw that I'll vote for the best candidate period... and it won't be a socialist or anyone that supports h1b visas.

RKM,

Are you wealthy? If not, would you consider voting for Bernie Sanders? If not, why not.

Thanks in advance for your response.

I'll look at each candidate in extreme detail. Then choose the best one. I'd probably vote for a conservative democrat leader that is against h1bs before I'd vote for a socialist republican who is for h1bs. But if a libertarian were out there that was better than both the republican and the democrat I'd vote for him first. I'm done with voting for politicians who say they are conservative then attack the American worker by flooding our economy with cheap labor and defending offshoring. As for my wealth I don't see how that's germane. I'm upper middle.

 

[2aguy]

screw that I'll vote for the best candidate period... and it won't be a socialist or anyone that supports h1b visas.

RKM,

Are you wealthy? If not, would you consider voting for Bernie Sanders? If not, why not.

Thanks in advance for your response.

I'll look at each candidate in extreme detail. Then choose the best one. I'd probably vote for a conservative democrat leader that is against h1bs before I'd vote for a socialist republican who is for h1bs.

Which democrat is against any people coming in here? True, they like poor, uneducated, angry, America hating immigrants the most....but I think they will take any foreign voter over an American voter any day of the week.....

 

[RKMBrown]

screw that I'll vote for the best candidate period... and it won't be a socialist or anyone that supports h1b visas.

RKM,

Are you wealthy? If not, would you consider voting for Bernie Sanders? If not, why not.

Thanks in advance for your response.

I'll look at each candidate in extreme detail. Then choose the best one. I'd probably vote for a conservative democrat leader that is against h1bs before I'd vote for a socialist republican who is for h1bs.

Which democrat is against any people coming in here? True, they like poor, uneducated, angry, America hating immigrants the most....but I think they will take any foreign voter over an American voter any day of the week.....

Bernie Sanders is pro American Workers also Walker.

 

[RKMBrown]

10 U.S. senators seek investigation into H-1B-driven layoffs Computerworld

 

[M14 Shooter]

I ask again::

How does the tiny % of guns and gun owners that misuse their firearms create a compelling state interest where it must have on record the identity and whereabouts of everyone that chooses to exercise their right to arms in order to protect the rights of the people?[...]

My answer begins with the fact that I am strongly opposed to gun registration. But since gun registration exists and is firmly embedded in our established system of government.....

The huge huge, majority of guns in the US are legally unregistered; your characterization here is, at best, flawed.

I don't see how my suggestion, which will prevent a lot of death and injury, can add to the negativity of registration.

How does the wholesale registration of firearms prevent death and injury?

Note that my original questions to you remains unanswered.

 

[M14 Shooter]

The tax on machine guns is not there to make them too expensive for people to exercise their right to arms

The tax stamp process is what I'm talking about. The reason machine guns are too expensive is that the tax stamp process came with a ban on sales to the public and imports for machine guns. The ban cause the prices to sky rocket. My tax stamp expansion will also carry with it a ban on sales of new guns to the public and imports for the expanded types of guns.

All of which are intended to make the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms too expensive to exercise.
This infringes upon the right to keeps and bear arms as it would if enacted over the exercise of any right.
So does any ban on the sales of new guns.
Fail.
Criminals will also, as you admit, still get guns. Fail.

As I have "repeatedly" explained to you congress is allowed to tax the HELL out of us...

But not under the effort of trying to limit the exercise of a fundamental right specifically protected by the constitution, because those protections, found in various amendments, amend the power to tax.
You refuse to understand this. Not sure why.

Nothing short of completely stopping you from exercising your rights will be considered "infringing" by congress, the POTUS, and the SCOTUS.

This is of course, a lie, with no substance whatsoever behind it.

Not any more they can now tax you for your right to health care. They can tax you for ANY EFFING REASON WHATSOEVER NOW.

But not under the effort of trying to limit the exercise of a fundamental right specifically protected by the constitution, because those protections, found in various amendments, amend the power to tax.
You refuse to understand this. Not sure why.

 

[M14 Shooter]

You guys always say that your ideas will prevent death and injury.....that is called magic thinking.......you say making guns more expensive will keep guns out of the hands of criminals....they steal them...that costs nothing....they give money to people who can pass all of your gun control laws to buy them these guns....bypassing your tax stamps....

and tax stamps will not prevent one death or crime....but it will keep law abiding citizens, especially the poor from buying and owning guns for their own protection....people who live in violent places where criminals get guns easily, where the innocent have little protection by the police and are left to the mercy of violent, gun armed criminals...

I didn't suggest anything other than adding a requirement to the existing purchasing process that would ensure the purchaser of a firearm is sufficiently knowledgeable to own it and to require that some level of training be required when that competence is not demonstrated.

Neither of which have you shown will prevent criminals from getting guns; neither of which have you shown do not infringe the rights of the law abiding.

 

[RKMBrown]

The tax stamp process is what I'm talking about. The reason machine guns are too expensive is that the tax stamp process came with a ban on sales to the public and imports for machine guns. The ban cause the prices to sky rocket. My tax stamp expansion will also carry with it a ban on sales of new guns to the public and imports for the expanded types of guns.

All of which are intended to make the exercise of the right to keep and bear arms too expensive to exercise.
This infringes upon the right to keeps and bear arms as it would if enacted over the exercise of any right.
So does any ban on the sales of new guns.
Fail.
Criminals will also, as you admit, still get guns. Fail.

As I have "repeatedly" explained to you congress is allowed to tax the HELL out of us...

But not under the effort of trying to limit the exercise of a fundamental right specifically protected by the constitution, because those protections, found in various amendments, amend the power to tax.
You refuse to understand this. Not sure why.

Nothing short of completely stopping you from exercising your rights will be considered "infringing" by congress, the POTUS, and the SCOTUS.

This is of course, a lie, with no substance whatsoever behind it.

Not any more they can now tax you for your right to health care. They can tax you for ANY EFFING REASON WHATSOEVER NOW.

But not under the effort of trying to limit the exercise of a fundamental right specifically protected by the constitution, because those protections, found in various amendments, amend the power to tax.
You refuse to understand this. Not sure why.

Under the effort of trying? Huh? We are talking about a corrupt government that believes the ends justify the means... why do you think they are gonna be dumb enough to say the tax is for an effort to try to restrict access to the guns? The tax is just the kick in the ass... the real hit to the pocket is when you are only allowed to buy guns manufactured before 2015. Over time the old guns will go up in value by an order of magnitude all on their own. They have already proven they can tax guns, they have already proven they can restrict certain types. What makes you think they won't continue down that path?