"I can't trust the aguments leading to Atheism, and therefore have no reason to be an Atheist"

[Taz]

That's why being agnostic is the only logical position to have.

Most people don't even know what it means. Do you?

No, please do tell.

I appreciate, and respect, your candor. Admitting ignorance is the best way to learn.

Agnosticism is a perspective on the knowability of the existence of deities. It's completely disconnected from belief. You can be an agnostic who believes in a god (theist agnostic), or a gnostic who believes in a god (theist gnostic). Or either of those who lacks such a belief (atheist agnostic or atheist gnostic). The agnostic vs gnostic distinction only distinguishes your view on whether belief in god is the same as knowledge of the existence of gods.

According to the philosopher William L. Rowe: "In the popular sense of the term, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of God, while a theist believes that God exists, an atheist disbelieves in God".

No, the proper definition of an agnostic is this, it's an atheist without gonads.

What are you? The ball checker?

 

[Taz]

Most people don't even know what it means. Do you?

No, please do tell.

I appreciate, and respect, your candor. Admitting ignorance is the best way to learn.

Agnosticism is a perspective on the knowability of the existence of deities. It's completely disconnected from belief. You can be an agnostic who believes in a god (theist agnostic), or a gnostic who believes in a god (theist gnostic). Or either of those who lacks such a belief (atheist agnostic or atheist gnostic). The agnostic vs gnostic distinction only distinguishes your view on whether belief in god is the same as knowledge of the existence of gods.

According to the philosopher William L. Rowe: "In the popular sense of the term, an agnostic is someone who neither believes nor disbelieves in the existence of God, while a theist believes that God exists, an atheist disbelieves in God".

No, the proper definition of an agnostic is this, it's an atheist without gonads.

I think I qualify as both. I don't believe there is a god but at the same time since I believe we're possibly a mite in a jungle as far as our earth as compared to the remainder of the universe how would I know if there's someone in charge of it somewhere? One thing I'll never believe is that there's some super deity who makes note of every mistake or evil deed every one of us is involved in....that foolishness and a savior who was a product of virgin birth won't get it.

The virgin birth has been scientifically verified as anal sex with cum dripping into the vagina. They note that it takes more than one time, 99 times out of 100.

 

[Thunderbird]

Point is in places like Samos, America and Europe, where religion isn't as all powerful and controlling, science thrives.

Actually it was the Greeks and perhaps even Aristarchus of Samos himself who abandoned the heliocentric theory.

Atheist fundamentalists, from Bill Maher to Foucault to Lysenko, have been as anti-science as anyone.

Christians only started discovering the truth when the church stopped killing them for speaking the truth. Blasphemy laws just for saying the earth is not the center of the universe.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Link: The Genesis of Science: How the Christian Middle Ages Launched the Scientific Revolution

Quote: The Inquisition never executed anyone because of their scientific ideas or discoveries (actually, the Church was the chief sponsor of scientific research and several popes were celebrated for their knowledge of the subject)

If it weren't for religion e equals mc2 might have been discovered thousands of years earlier.

Actually without Christian physicists like Newton and Kepler and Maxwell physics never would have gotten off the ground.

Science was born of Christianity

 

[Thunderbird]

He rejects all the rational scientific arguments why his arguments are wrong. I'm not even going to go into why he's wrong because they aren't listening.

Maybe you aren't listening, maybe you reject rational and scientific arguments.

What is the "fine-tuning" of the universe, and how does it serve as a "pointer to God"?

Twenty Arguments For The Existence Of God by Peter Kreeft & Ronald K. Tacelli

 

[hortysir]

You live your life according to the BELIEF that there is no one to answer to

Horty? Does "no one to answer to" bother you? If so, why?

It doesn't affect me but it does bother me, if only for your own sake

Why?

Because i care about your immortal soul

Horty, you would not give a dang if I got hit by a bus tomorrow. You don't care about me in any way, form or fashion. AND THAT'S OK. I don't expect you to. You don't know me and this is an online forum. Caring about my immortal soul appears to be a very passive, very abstract, very impersonal, noncommittal future orientated (non)action.

My interpretation of what you are saying is that you want to make sure that I have some type of punishment or to be held accountable for whatever I may have done in my past or am currently doing. As if I am one step away from a Charles Manson episode with nothing to keep me in check.

Atheists have relationships that we are responsible to and for. Just like you.

You're free to think what you will.
But I do not wish any harm or punishment for you.

 

[JakeStarkey]

sealy, too funny

Your position on the God hypothesis is?

A waste of time. Life is short

start trying to live one

I have 20 friends we play poker almost every Friday. I live on a lake, have a family condo on lake Huron and property up north near lake Michigan. A great family job and girlfriend. I feel blessed and aren't waiting for an afterlife where lions sleep with lambs.

If your life sucks better do something to change that and if things get tough, just be grateful you weren't born a cow in a slaughter house. No heaven waiting for the cow or you.

All of which have nothing to do with being able to prove atheism or disprove theism. So what is your point? Nonbelievers can succeed temporally? Why not.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You live your life according to the BELIEF that there is no one to answer to

Horty? Does "no one to answer to" bother you? If so, why?

It doesn't affect me but it does bother me, if only for your own sake

Why?

Because i care about your immortal soul

Horty, you would not give a dang if I got hit by a bus tomorrow. You don't care about me in any way, form or fashion. AND THAT'S OK. I don't expect you to. You don't know me and this is an online forum. Caring about my immortal soul appears to be a very passive, very abstract, very impersonal, noncommittal future orientated (non)action.

My interpretation of what you are saying is that you want to make sure that I have some type of punishment or to be held accountable for whatever I may have done in my past or am currently doing. As if I am one step away from a Charles Manson episode with nothing to keep me in check.

Atheists have relationships that we are responsible to and for. Just like you.

Your ignorance manifest itself in your arrogance. How can you possibly state at how he feels? I suspect you just don't want some one, for your personal reasons, to care for your immortal soul.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Some of you better go study Roger Bacon's role in developing science.

Be an atheist if you want: it's OK. And it's equally OK for people to tell you "I disagree with you."

The problem is some butts on both sides simply can't live and let live.

 

[jillian]

Interesting. Watch the dif between the postings of the atheists and the anti-Godists.

View attachment 52843

C.S. Lewis, like almost all people that need a 'god', thinks like a child. This is common among those who need to believe in something supernatural, they need a daddy figure that will make it all better and make them feel safe. Give them a whole picture of existence because uncertainty above all else is so terrifying. The uncertainty of death being the top of this pyramid.

In other words rather than face reality they prefer an imaginary friend in the sky. As I've grown older I'm more amazed by the day/week that people in the real 21st century world have a need to grope and tug on that load of ancient fantasy.

My father pretty much sums up the theist argument. How can all this be without a God? It's too perfect. The body has eyes to see, ears, a stomach... We need protean water and greens and the earth has it. The sun isn't too far or close.

He rejects all the rational scientific arguments why his arguments are wrong. I'm not even going to go into why he's wrong because they aren't listening.

The fact is they believe in a God because they can't believe any other way.

But that's a belief founded on ignorance and wishful thinking.

My dad doesn't even defend religions. He admits they are all made up. Still he can't imagine there is no God. At least he doesn't claim God talks to him or talked to his ancestors.

It gets pretty complicated but all life originating in a single cell then evolving seems pretty logical to me. Once they conducted an experiment with fish. They placed two or three pairs in a body of fresh water deep within a cave where there was no light....zero, pitch darkness. After a few generations their eyes developed a film of tissue then gradually disappeared. No need for sight so the body was relieved of a potential vulnerability.

Do a study on the mathematical probability of a single cell evolving into just four cells. You'll be amazed.

as opposed to the probability of everything being created in six days?

 

[JakeStarkey]

C.S. Lewis, like almost all people that need a 'god', thinks like a child. This is common among those who need to believe in something supernatural, they need a daddy figure that will make it all better and make them feel safe. Give them a whole picture of existence because uncertainty above all else is so terrifying. The uncertainty of death being the top of this pyramid.

In other words rather than face reality they prefer an imaginary friend in the sky. As I've grown older I'm more amazed by the day/week that people in the real 21st century world have a need to grope and tug on that load of ancient fantasy.

My father pretty much sums up the theist argument. How can all this be without a God? It's too perfect. The body has eyes to see, ears, a stomach... We need protean water and greens and the earth has it. The sun isn't too far or close.

He rejects all the rational scientific arguments why his arguments are wrong. I'm not even going to go into why he's wrong because they aren't listening.

The fact is they believe in a God because they can't believe any other way.

But that's a belief founded on ignorance and wishful thinking.

My dad doesn't even defend religions. He admits they are all made up. Still he can't imagine there is no God. At least he doesn't claim God talks to him or talked to his ancestors.

It gets pretty complicated but all life originating in a single cell then evolving seems pretty logical to me. Once they conducted an experiment with fish. They placed two or three pairs in a body of fresh water deep within a cave where there was no light....zero, pitch darkness. After a few generations their eyes developed a film of tissue then gradually disappeared. No need for sight so the body was relieved of a potential vulnerability.

Do a study on the mathematical probability of a single cell evolving into just four cells. You'll be amazed.

as opposed to the probability of everything being created in six days?

Many evangelicals please in a young Earth, yes.

Most Christians, overwhelmingly, I think, certainly do not, and most Christians have no trouble in reconciling Science and Religion.

 

[jillian]

In other words rather than face reality they prefer an imaginary friend in the sky. As I've grown older I'm more amazed by the day/week that people in the real 21st century world have a need to grope and tug on that load of ancient fantasy.

My father pretty much sums up the theist argument. How can all this be without a God? It's too perfect. The body has eyes to see, ears, a stomach... We need protean water and greens and the earth has it. The sun isn't too far or close.

He rejects all the rational scientific arguments why his arguments are wrong. I'm not even going to go into why he's wrong because they aren't listening.

The fact is they believe in a God because they can't believe any other way.

But that's a belief founded on ignorance and wishful thinking.

My dad doesn't even defend religions. He admits they are all made up. Still he can't imagine there is no God. At least he doesn't claim God talks to him or talked to his ancestors.

It gets pretty complicated but all life originating in a single cell then evolving seems pretty logical to me. Once they conducted an experiment with fish. They placed two or three pairs in a body of fresh water deep within a cave where there was no light....zero, pitch darkness. After a few generations their eyes developed a film of tissue then gradually disappeared. No need for sight so the body was relieved of a potential vulnerability.

Do a study on the mathematical probability of a single cell evolving into just four cells. You'll be amazed.

as opposed to the probability of everything being created in six days?

Many evangelicals please in a young Earth, yes.

Most Christians, overwhelmingly, I think, certainly do not, and most Christians have no trouble in reconciling Science and Religion.

because they're actually easily reconcilable.

and i'm aware that only the tiniest percentage of Christians think the world is only 5,000 years ols.

but I am going to laugh at them.

 

[the_human_being]

C.S. Lewis, like almost all people that need a 'god', thinks like a child. This is common among those who need to believe in something supernatural, they need a daddy figure that will make it all better and make them feel safe. Give them a whole picture of existence because uncertainty above all else is so terrifying. The uncertainty of death being the top of this pyramid.

In other words rather than face reality they prefer an imaginary friend in the sky. As I've grown older I'm more amazed by the day/week that people in the real 21st century world have a need to grope and tug on that load of ancient fantasy.

My father pretty much sums up the theist argument. How can all this be without a God? It's too perfect. The body has eyes to see, ears, a stomach... We need protean water and greens and the earth has it. The sun isn't too far or close.

He rejects all the rational scientific arguments why his arguments are wrong. I'm not even going to go into why he's wrong because they aren't listening.

The fact is they believe in a God because they can't believe any other way.

But that's a belief founded on ignorance and wishful thinking.

My dad doesn't even defend religions. He admits they are all made up. Still he can't imagine there is no God. At least he doesn't claim God talks to him or talked to his ancestors.

It gets pretty complicated but all life originating in a single cell then evolving seems pretty logical to me. Once they conducted an experiment with fish. They placed two or three pairs in a body of fresh water deep within a cave where there was no light....zero, pitch darkness. After a few generations their eyes developed a film of tissue then gradually disappeared. No need for sight so the body was relieved of a potential vulnerability.

Do a study on the mathematical probability of a single cell evolving into just four cells. You'll be amazed.

as opposed to the probability of everything being created in six days?

As opposed to the probability of it ever happening. Not even in 100 million years. I'm an engineer and as such I believe mathematics and science go hand-in-hand. The probability of a single cell evolving even into two cells is totally improbable mathematically.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

sealy, too funny

Your position on the God hypothesis is?

A waste of time. Life is short

start trying to live one

I have 20 friends we play poker almost every Friday. I live on a lake, have a family condo on lake Huron and property up north near lake Michigan. A great family job and girlfriend. I feel blessed and aren't waiting for an afterlife where lions sleep with lambs.

If your life sucks better do something to change that and if things get tough, just be grateful you weren't born a cow in a slaughter house. No heaven waiting for the cow or you.

Now you tell us? Damn! Moo, moo

 

[Disir]

Horty? Does "no one to answer to" bother you? If so, why?

It doesn't affect me but it does bother me, if only for your own sake

Why?

Because i care about your immortal soul

Horty, you would not give a dang if I got hit by a bus tomorrow. You don't care about me in any way, form or fashion. AND THAT'S OK. I don't expect you to. You don't know me and this is an online forum. Caring about my immortal soul appears to be a very passive, very abstract, very impersonal, noncommittal future orientated (non)action.

My interpretation of what you are saying is that you want to make sure that I have some type of punishment or to be held accountable for whatever I may have done in my past or am currently doing. As if I am one step away from a Charles Manson episode with nothing to keep me in check.

Atheists have relationships that we are responsible to and for. Just like you.

Your ignorance manifest itself in your arrogance. How can you possibly state at how he feels? I suspect you just don't want some one, for your personal reasons, to care for your immortal soul.

Arrogance would have been assuming and expecting that he gave a damn.

Caring for someones immortal soul is called the least that one can do and requires no effort including the caring. Giving a damn in the here and now requires effort. It's unfortunate that you find this truth disagreeable.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

most Christians have no trouble in reconciling Science and Religion.

I love what Campbell said about this very issue

"There's no real conflict between science and religion. Religion is the recognition of the deeper dimensions that the science reveals to us. What is in conflict is the science of 2000 B.C., which is what you have in the Bible, and the science of the twentieth century A.D. You have to disengage the messages of the Bible from its science."
- Joseph Campbell

​

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Understanding Mythology: Jeffrey Mishlove Interviews Joseph Campbell

MISHLOVE: Scientific context.

CAMPBELL: The context that science is out of. For instance, the theme that constantly occurs to me -- in the Roman Catholic religion it is dogma to believe that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended bodily to heaven, and that his mother, Mary, in sleep ascended to heaven. OK?

MISHLOVE: I've seen it in television shows. They show him rising up.

CAMPBELL: And you know that going at the speed of light they would not be out of the galaxy yet. And you know what it means for a physical body to go up into the stratosphere.

MISHLOVE: So it's a great mistake --

CAMPBELL: The image, the mythic image, does not fit the contemporary mind. So the message can't get into the contemporary body. You've got to translate these things into contemporary life and experience. Mythology is a validation of experience, giving it its spiritual or psychological dimension. And if you have a lot of things that you can't correlate with contemporary nature, you can't handle it.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Some of you better go study Roger Bacon's role in developing science.

Be an atheist if you want: it's OK. And it's equally OK for people to tell you "I disagree with you."

The problem is some butts on both sides simply can't live and let live.

If Christians aren't Jews, then Atheists are not non believers

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I have 20 friends we play poker almost every Friday. I live on a lake, have a family condo on lake Huron and property up north near lake Michigan. A great family job and girlfriend. I feel blessed and aren't waiting for an afterlife where lions sleep with lambs.

If your life sucks better do something to change that and if things get tough, just be grateful you weren't born a cow in a slaughter house. No heaven waiting for the cow or you.

20 friends playing cards? Sounds more like a fraternal society. And what is up with all of these lakes?

Should we all be calling you The Lady of the Lakes?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Do a study on the mathematical probability of a single cell evolving into just four cells. You'll be amazed.

as opposed to the probability of everything being created in six days?

CAMPBELL: The context that science is out of. For instance, the theme that constantly occurs to me -- in the Roman Catholic religion it is dogma to believe that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended bodily to heaven, and that his mother, Mary, in sleep ascended to heaven. OK?

MISHLOVE: I've seen it in television shows. They show him rising up.

CAMPBELL: And you know that going at the speed of light they would not be out of the galaxy yet. And you know what it means for a physical body to go up into the stratosphere.​

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

As opposed to the probability of it ever happening. Not even in 100 million years. I'm an engineer and as such I believe mathematics and science go hand-in-hand. The probability of a single cell evolving even into two cells is totally improbable mathematically.

Want to speak to probabilities?
An appeal to authority that makes you out to be an even bigger douche than thought possible?

A group at the University of Arizona has published a study of of one group the these amazing organisms, the volvocine green algae. What's amazing about this group of algae is that you can find a range of multicellular sophistication in closely relate algae species. There are species that form simple sets of four identical cells stuck together, other that form balls of 32-64 not quite identical cells with some specialized functions, up to full-blown multicellular organisms with 50,000 highly specialized cells, including reproductive germ cells. The evolution of multicellularity is not an irrecoverable event from an unimaginably distant past; it is something we can observe, manipulate, and test in the lab today.

How Single-Cell Organisms Evolve Into Multicellular Ones
By Michael White | February 20th 2009 03:15 PM
​

"I'm an engineer.." of two centuries ago?