IDF begins evacuating civilians from eastern Rafah northward

[Lisa558]

I would say Israel has lost considerable moral high ground since the start of the conflict, but Hamas had none and still doesn’t.

That’s because the liberal media is slanting the reporting against Israel.

 

[Lisa558]

The Lancet has extremely high credibility and factual accuracy. I noticed you did not actually respond to the Lancet article.

Can you find another conservative to target for a change? You tire me.

 

[Coyote]

Can you find another conservative to target for a change? You tire me.

Oh my. Pulling the victim again are you? Can’t actually address what the Lancet article said?

 

[Lisa558]

Oh my. Pulling the victim again are you? Can’t actually address what the Lancet article said?

View attachment 952904

I told you why I will not give credence to a Lancet article written by an anti-Israel propagandist. Why should I respond to that?

And ESPECIALLY after you pull that insulting “victim card” out. I notice you sure don’t smear the black posters constantly wailing about things that happened two centuries with the “victim card.”

 

[Coyote]

I told you why I will not give credence to a Lancet article written by an anti-Israel propagandist. Why should I respond to that?

How do you know the author is an anti-Israeli propagandist?

You attack a source with another source that itself is known for its strong pro-Jewish/pro-Israel bias.

And ESPECIALLY after you pull that insulting “victim card” out. I notice you sure don’t smear the black posters constantly wailing about things that happened two centuries with the “victim card.”

 

[Lisa558]

How do you know the author is an anti-Israeli propagandist?

You attack a source with another source that itself is known for its strong pro-Jewish/pro-Israel bias.





View attachment 952909

Do you get paid every time you target a conservative for harassment? It is my understanding that there is a new policy at USMB for mods to do just that. Has it switched owners? Are YOU a part owner, which explains why you get away with what you do?

Anyway, once it was revealed to me that there is an order for mods to zoom in on Trump supporters, I don’t want to “play” anymore. Find someone else.

 

[Coyote]

Do you get paid every time you target a conservative for harassment? It is my understanding that there is a new policy at USMB for mods to do just that. Has it switched owners? Are YOU a part owner, which explains why you get away with what you do?

Anyway, once it was revealed to me that there is an order for mods to zoom in on Trump supporters, I don’t want to “play” anymore. Find someone else.

You responded to my post on Gaza Health ministry numbers. That wasn’t a post made in response to you. Now you are crying about being such a victim because I’m responding back.

You argued that the Lancet was anti-Jewish. You used source with a pro-Jewish/pro-Israel bias to claim that. When I point that out, you pull the victim card.

The only areas where legitimate doubt exists for the numbers was the proportion of men, women, and children. This was corrected when enough bodies were positively identified to show the error. The other area that isn’t inaccurate, but makes it difficult to evaluate the numbers is they do distinguish between fighters and civilians.

 

[Natural Citizen]

Can you find another conservative to target for a change?

You're not a ''conservative.'' Not even a little bit.

Sparky is yet another leftist...

And sparky is not a ''leftist.''

You out yourself every day on here to those of us who can see...

 

[sparky]

And sparky is not a ''leftist.''

thx Natty

~S~

 

[Natural Citizen]

Sparky is yet another leftist...

thx Natty

~S~

I am a bird...

 

[Shusha]

I would say Israel has lost considerable moral high ground since the start of the conflict, but Hamas had none and still doesn’t.

What could or should have Israel done to maintain the "moral high ground"? Note: Not what Israel should NOT have done, what she should have done. How should she have acted that would have allowed her to achieve her three goals: retrieve the hostages, prevent future attacks by destroying the infrastructure, eliminate Hamas.

 

[Shusha]

The only areas where legitimate doubt exists for the numbers was the proportion of men, women, and children. This was corrected when enough bodies were positively identified to show the error. The other area that isn’t inaccurate, but makes it difficult to evaluate the numbers is they do distinguish between fighters and civilians.

I believe the proportion of men, women, children was either deliberately misreported or an act of sloppy application of population statistics. And my money is on option a.

Distinguishing between fighters and civilians will be impossible under these conditions. Not the least reason because it will be impossible to determine the actions of individuals in battle.

 

[Lisa558]

I believe the proportion of men, women, children was either deliberately misreported or an act of sloppy application of population statistics. And my money is on option a.

Distinguishing between fighters and civilians will be impossible under these conditions. Not the least reason because it will be impossible to determine the actions of individuals in battle.

Stating the obvious here, of course, but it would be easier if the Islamic terrorists did not use civilians as body armor or build their tunnels under day care centers and hospitals.

 

[Shusha]

Stating the obvious here, of course, but it would be easier if the Islamic terrorists did not use civilians as body armor or build their tunnels under day care centers and hospitals.

Sure. But that is just another shallow soundbite. There is a much more complicated argument to be made about the difficulty of distinguishing between civilians and combatants under the sorts of conditions in Gaza.

 

[Lisa558]

Sure. But that is just another shallow soundbite. There is a much more complicated argument to be made about the difficulty of distinguishing between civilians and combatants under the sorts of conditions in Gaza

We’ve got to keep it shallow. Bear in mind that the average IQ of American voters is 98.

 

[Coyote]

What could or should have Israel done to maintain the "moral high ground"? Note: Not what Israel should NOT have done, what she should have done. How should she have acted that would have allowed her to achieve her three goals: retrieve the hostages, prevent future attacks by destroying the infrastructure, eliminate Hamas.

Allowed access for food, water and humanitarian aid from the beginning.

A plan and more transparency about what would happen after, how Gaza would be governed, perhaps forming an international coalition for that purpose. There is a lack of trust in Israel’s motives and long term plans for Gaza.

Done more to prevent civilian fatalities sooner. Based on what the US State Department report concluded and the fact that suggestions were made by the US, which I believe Israel has now taken, more could have done and the number of attacks with large casualty rates was a cause for concern.

Rely less on AI for targeting after targets were erroneously identified by AI, multiple times, that ended up being civilians. Using AI on this scale is unprecedented and experimental, and problematic for a number of reasons, from lack of accuracy due incomplete data sets to being able to generate so many targets the human component can’t adequately review them. I think it is unethical to use it in this scale when it is still experimental (this goes beyond Israel) and to continue using knowing the problems.

Two articles examine this:

When Algorithms Decide Who is a Target: IDF's use of AI in Gaza | TechPolicy.Press

Examining the ethical and moral pitfalls of military AI through the IDF's use of recommendation systems for identifying bombing targets in Gaza.

www.techpolicy.press

Made more use of alternative strategies for urban fighting that would be less destructive to life and infrastructure.

One unspoken aspect that imo damages Israel reputation and claim to morality is the behavior and words of some some of the most influential members of it’s government that either contradicts what Israel officially says or undermines it’s ethical position. This includes now open attacks by settlers on West Bank Palestinians (and now trucks transporting aid), which are supported by the very officials in charge of security who refuse to intervene and stop it and have at times participated. When the PM says nothing or does nothing to to address this it puts Israel, as a whole in a bad light.

 

[Coyote]

We’ve got to keep it shallow. Bear in mind that the average IQ of American voters is 98.

No you do not need to keep it shallow. Some here are able to engage in deeper discussions, pro and con, then you seem to want to demonstrate.

 

[Coyote]

I believe the proportion of men, women, children was either deliberately misreported or an act of sloppy application of population statistics. And my money is on option a.

I disagree. Given the complexity of identifying bodies under the conditions they have to operate under, and the fact there numbers and methodology are usually considered pretty reputable, I give them the benefit of the doubt here.

Distinguishing between fighters and civilians will be impossible under these conditions. Not the least reason because it will be impossible to determine the actions of individuals in battle.

True.

 

[sparky]

One unspoken aspect that imo damages Israel reputation and claim to morality is the behavior and words of some some of the most influential members of it’s government that either contradicts what Israel officially says or undermines it’s ethical position.

greater Israel Coyote

~S~

 

[Shusha]

I want to ask for clarification on a few things, keeping in mind I'm trying to formulate a standard of expectation for moral (legal) behaviour by governments, according to your perspective.

Allowed access for food, water and humanitarian aid from the beginning.

What do you consider "the beginning"? The day of the attack? As part of a moral response to an invasion and attack? After a perimeter of some sort is secured? Within the first week? Month? When typically available necessities are reduced to the extent that aid is needed? How is that measured? Or do you mean that all the grocery stores and markets must be fully stocked at all times during a conflict?

What do you mean by "allow access"? Is it sufficient to not prevent aid from entering through borders with sovereign nations not party to the conflict? Or is the attacked State required to provide access to aid corridors within their own territory?

Is the attacked State permitted to inspect the aid to ensure there are no weapons, or dual use products? How much time does it take to set up the inspections? How does this affect the use of resources needed during the conflict?

A plan and more transparency about what would happen after, how Gaza would be governed, perhaps forming an international coalition for that purpose. There is a lack of trust in Israel’s motives and long term plans for Gaza.

I'll come back to this.

Done more to prevent civilian fatalities sooner. Based on what the US State Department report concluded and the fact that suggestions were made by the US, which I believe Israel has now taken, more could have done and the number of attacks with large casualty rates was a cause for concern.

Details? What did Israel do, specifically, at the beginning of the war that was different than later on? Were there more civilian fatalities at the beginning of the war? How do we know this? What were the conditions?

Rely less on AI for targeting after targets were erroneously identified by AI, multiple times, that ended up being civilians. Using AI on this scale is unprecedented and experimental, and problematic for a number of reasons, from lack of accuracy due incomplete data sets to being able to generate so many targets the human component can’t adequately review them. I think it is unethical to use it in this scale when it is still experimental (this goes beyond Israel) and to continue using knowing the problems.

Two articles examine this:

When Algorithms Decide Who is a Target: IDF's use of AI in Gaza | TechPolicy.Press

Examining the ethical and moral pitfalls of military AI through the IDF's use of recommendation systems for identifying bombing targets in Gaza.

www.techpolicy.press

I'll come back to this one too. Too much for one post.

Made more use of alternative strategies for urban fighting that would be less destructive to life and infrastructure.

What would those alternative strategies be? I am especially interested in alternative strategies which would be less destructive to (civilian) life.

Infrastructure is much trickier, given the tunnels and use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes. What do you suggest?