IDF begins evacuating civilians from eastern Rafah northward

[sparky]

I would say Israel has lost considerable moral high ground since the start of the conflict, but Hamas had none and still doesn’t.

The direction is palpable via international orgs (UN, ICJ) etc.....

Israel notably ousting the world's aid as complicit meant the world's eyes & ears went with it

Thereby compromising the USofA's standing as 'ally' in what is seen by many as ethnic cleansing

It's how it plays out from here that matters

Many see the next terror attack on mainstreet USA as a turning point, given our southern border seems to have little regard to what vermin cross on in

We lost our sh*t the last time, which could well happen again , and off we go w/Israel for the perps

The world will have a harder time questioning morality, and any actions that would normally be verbotten

~S~

 

[sparky]

At the point where our boots are on the ground ,our allegiance to Israel ,and by proxy Israel's morality will become harder for the world to confront.

Think post 9/11, WMD .....we could have invaded any country we wanted to, despite the country responsible, because 'terrorists' hail from no particular one

That's the beauty of the terrorist industrial complex in that there are no flags to fly, so all those folks we see sitting around in the UN (our world court) can't be labeled.

So they get to pick/choose subversively due to this, which is exactly what surrounding countries are doing now

For starters, who are Iran's allies , and do they have a bone for the USofA would be the Q to be asking ....

jmho

~S~

 

[gipper]

What could or should have Israel done to maintain the "moral high ground"? Note: Not what Israel should NOT have done, what she should have done. How should she have acted that would have allowed her to achieve her three goals: retrieve the hostages, prevent future attacks by destroying the infrastructure, eliminate Hamas.

Simple. Restrict their military actions against Hamas. This isn't hard unless your dumb.

 

[toomuchtime_]

You responded to my post on Gaza Health ministry numbers. That wasn’t a post made in response to you. Now you are crying about being such a victim because I’m responding back.

You argued that the Lancet was anti-Jewish. You used source with a pro-Jewish/pro-Israel bias to claim that. When I point that out, you pull the victim card.

The only areas where legitimate doubt exists for the numbers was the proportion of men, women, and children. This was corrected when enough bodies were positively identified to show the error. The other area that isn’t inaccurate, but makes it difficult to evaluate the numbers is they do distinguish between fighters and civilians.

Again you demonstrate it is impossible for you to put up a post without lying. In April the Hamas health ministry admitted it could not document the number of casualties it claimed to have occurred and your dishonest attempt to refute that was to cite a Lancet article from January. And then you add another lie by claiming

The only areas where legitimate doubt exists for the numbers was the proportion of men, women, and children. This was corrected when enough bodies were positively identified to show the error.

Hamas-Run Gaza Health Ministry Admits to Flaws in Casualty Data

The Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical...

www.fdd.org

 

[toomuchtime_]

I would say Israel has lost considerable moral high ground since the start of the conflict, but Hamas had none and still doesn’t.

And yet when it comes to Hamas' debunked casualty figures, you hold Hamas is the gold standard for truth.

Hamas-Run Gaza Health Ministry Admits to Flaws in Casualty Data

The Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical...

www.fdd.org

 

[gipper]

Again you demonstrate it is impossible for you to put up a post without lying. In April the Hamas health ministry admitted it could not document the number of casualties it claimed to have occurred and your dishonest attempt to refute that was to cite a Lancet article from January. And then you add another lie by claiming

Hamas-Run Gaza Health Ministry Admits to Flaws in Casualty Data

The Hamas-run Gaza Ministry of Health said on April 6 that it had “incomplete data” for 11,371 of the 33,091 Palestinian fatalities it claims to have documented. In a statistical...

www.fdd.org

A liar calling someone else a liar. No wonder you love Genocide Joe. You’re just like him.

 

[Shusha]

Simple. Restrict their military actions against Hamas. This isn't hard unless your dumb.

Can you clarify what you are attempting to argue here?

Are you arguing that it is possible to conduct a war in urban centers with military infrastructure embedded within a civilian population and kill NO civilians? Or are you arguing for fewer civilians casualties? Or are you arguing for some other specific actions on the part of Israel's soldiers?

 

[gipper]

Can you clarify what you are attempting to argue here?

Are you arguing that it is possible to conduct a war in urban centers with military infrastructure embedded within a civilian population and kill NO civilians? Or are you arguing for fewer civilians casualties? Or are you arguing for some other specific actions on the part of Israel's soldiers?

Hamas is hiding underground. Go get them where they are. Apparently the IDF was too chicken and the leadership wanted genocide anyway. They stated as much multiple times.

What happened to the idea of flooding the underground tunnels with sea water? Isn’t that far more appropriate than committing genocide?

 

[Shusha]

Hamas is hiding underground. Go get them where they are.

The expectation is that Hamas would fight only in the tunnels and wouldn't try to blend in or embed itself with the civilian population, and therefore, no civilians would be harmed?

 

[gipper]

The expectation is that Hamas would fight only in the tunnels and wouldn't try to blend in or embed itself with the civilian population, and therefore, no civilians would be harmed?

Yeah there it is again. The human shields bull shit. Just another way of justifying mass murder of innocents.

Where do you think Hamas can go, with over 2 million people crammed into a tiny space? Israel has monitored every inch of Gaza for 20 years. They know where Hamas is hiding.

It’s a genocide you support.

 

[Coyote]

I want to ask for clarification on a few things, keeping in mind I'm trying to formulate a standard of expectation for moral (legal) behaviour by governments, according to your perspective.

What do you consider "the beginning"? The day of the attack? As part of a moral response to an invasion and attack? After a perimeter of some sort is secured? Within the first week? Month? When typically available necessities are reduced to the extent that aid is needed? How is that measured? Or do you mean that all the grocery stores and markets must be fully stocked at all times during a conflict?

When Israel decided to impose a seige on Gaza that included food.

What do you mean by "allow access"? Is it sufficient to not prevent aid from entering through borders with sovereign nations not party to the conflict? Or is the attacked State required to provide access to aid corridors within their own territory?

No. The attacked state controls roughly 80% of the land border and it controls the entire coastline. The only bit that isn’t is in the far south. There is no logistical way for enough aid to enter from there to reach much of Gaza, particularly if the attacked state is blocking it from within Gaza with combat operations. The statement:

Is it sufficient to not prevent aid from entering through borders with sovereign nations not party to the conflict?

In the context of the reality of the situation disengenius given the attacked state specifically stated it would block the entry of food and it controls most of the border.

Is the attacked State permitted to inspect the aid to ensure there are no weapons, or dual use products? How much time does it take to set up the inspections? How does this affect the use of resources needed during the conflict?

I suspect inspections can be done with help by entities other than the attacked state to speed up the process (allies). Other than the first question, the rest are not answerable and rely on conjecture.

I'll come back to this.

Details? What did Israel do, specifically, at the beginning of the war that was different than later on? Were there more civilian fatalities at the beginning of the war? How do we know this? What were the conditions?

The use of large numbers massive “dumb bombs” is one, however, neither of us is privy to what is being recommended and said between Israel and its allies, we can only guess based on what is reported afterwards. Why would recommendations be made (by military and security professionals, not you or I) to reduce civilian casualties if Israel was already doing every thing possible? Why would Israel’s staunchest allies express concern? Why would Israel change anything if they were a,ready doing everything “right”?

Civilian fatality rates over time is answerable, the rest is not because we don’t have access to the data.

I'll come back to this one too. Too much for one post.

What would those alternative strategies be? I am especially interested in alternative strategies which would be less destructive to (civilian) life.

You’ve asked me this before and I‘ve responded before, with my responses based on what government officials who have been meeting with their Israeli counterparts have recommended (and it is very general). Neither of us are military experts.

Infrastructure is much trickier, given the tunnels and use of civilian infrastructure for military purposes. What do you suggest?

Fair question, I don’t actually know. Flooding tunnels with seawater was proposed at one time.

 

[Sayaras]