If everybody agrees abortion is bad, why is Pro-life so unpopular?

[jillian]

And once again, people who can barely govern their own lives, want to make moral decisions for everyone else. Too amusing.

There's a reason the court said that the rights of government to protect potential life had to be weighed against the woman's right to control her own body. Life exists on a continuum and that was recognized in Roe.

Now, if all the folk who think government should be drowned in a bathtub will get government out of our bedrooms, life would be beautiful.

Not to mention that I would doubt the numbers and accuracy of the OPINION PIECE from the Weekly Standard.

Oh...and Allie, yeah, when the article is pages back and you make no reference to it in your post, I'd think you should post the link again.

 

[Shogun]

I guess you are missing the point. That is only a solution for people who want a baby. Sex is N-O-T about making babies, no matter what twisted adults told you. Think of that one like 'if you masterbate you are killing babies'


not at all. test tube babies is a TESTIMONY of the humanity involved with the most basic cellular fertilization. Are you missing MY point?

And, sex is NOT about making babies? Thats funny.. it seems to be how everyone else is doing it. Masturbation does not involve the possibility of fertilizing an egg, does does is?


Human beings are not animals? So you are putting a value on life after all?


not animals in the same regard as my lunch was. Of course i'm putting value on life; such is the platform of my position. However, I'm not interested in making some silly equivalence between a cow and a human. If you'd choose a cow instead of a human to save froma burning building then you are the pariah.


Human life is more valuable to you than other life is?

yes.

Eating a dead human as opposed to eating a dead cow may not be to your or my likings, but I hate to inform you this way...both are dead meat. even many religious people say there is a soul that departs the body and that the rest is but an empty vessel.

sorry, both are not merely dead meat. A dead cow is in no way, shape or form even remotely close to the same as a dead baby. Fact: I can take a .357 and go shoot a cow in the head right this minute and face no legal consequences. Can you make the same argument about a human child?

And, I don't care what religious people think about living vassals. Indeed, those same people don't believe cows have souls at all so your point is null and void.


coat hanger arguments? if you do that again I will cease speaking the way I am with you. I hope you understand that I do not want to waste brain cells playing that silly game.

It's a reminder that there is more at state with abortions that the wounded liberty of the mother. A very REAL price is paid by the dead child besides having to deal with the invalidation of rampant irresponsibility. If you choose not to play ball then so be it. Hell, again, don't complain about emotional vocabulary when the entire premise of the pro-choice crowd DEPENDS on male dominated flashbacks to an entirely different time and place in America.



I do not like any emotional arguments about serious subjects being the basis for serious debate and law making. I too can be emotional about many subjects but I am mature enough to put it aside when speaking to people I expect a respectful back and forth with.

the ball is in your court



Shall I point out every emotional retort you bring to the table? Limiting the conversation won't win anyone over. If you want to play the game then do so. If not, then so be it.

 

[Ravi]

Exactly. The minute a woman is pregnant, she's no longer one person, she's two.

That why people can be prosecuted for the murder of 2 people, instead of just one, if they kill a woman who is pregnant.

Parents don't have the right to kill their kids just because they're under their care and protection and are dependent upon them...(though honestly, the legalization of abortion has resulted in a ridiculous attitude that children, and all non-perfect or vulnerable members of society are disposable).

Nah, it's because it isn't their choice to force someone else to abort.

 

[AllieBaba]

You apparently have never heard of the young girls marched into abortion clinics by their parents.

 

[Shogun]

back to personal responsibility are we? why do you keep jumping into the personal lives of others when their actions do NOT affect you or society?
the rest of this dribble is why I tried another thread,
nuf said

Im not leaping around at all. In fact, you can delve into the health forum and dig up the rather infamous Great Shogun Abortion Compromise as you are not the first person to fell the consistency of my take on abortion. Indeed, weren't you JUST making a plea about leaving out emotions responses? Yet, you accuse me of jumping into the personal lives of others DESPITE the fact that YOU are the one totally ignoring the fetus whose life has been jumped into by a scalpel and a vacuum? Indeed, those actions DO affect our society because we lose every single genetically distinct human being that pays the ultimate price for the sake of INDIVIDUAL IRRESPONSIBILITY.

again, don't cry on my shoulder about the nature of my posts if THIS is all you can manage.

I have to say.. it's pretty telling that you missed how this post was a direct retort to Edetic's post.. yet it's MY post that you feel the urge to pounce on. Telling indeed.

 

[jillian]

not at all. test tube babies is a TESTIMONY of the humanity involved with the most basic cellular fertilization. Are you missing MY point?

So 10 cells is human? 2 cells? when? And is it immoral to freeze the fertilized eggs when there are extras? Or do you want to force women to have 10/11 kids at a time should they end up with that many successful fertilizations?

Is an egg a chicken because it may be a chicken one day?

And, sex is NOT about making babies? Thats funny.. it seems to be how everyone else is doing it. Masturbation does not involve the possibility of fertilizing an egg, does does is?

You think sex is only for making babies. How sad. Explains so many of your anger issues.

Though I do agree with you about the pedophile.

 

[Ravi]

You apparently have never heard of the young girls marched into abortion clinics by their parents.

So now you think the girls have the right to make that decision. Why doesn't that surprise me?

 

[AllieBaba]

And once again, people who can barely govern their own lives, want to make moral decisions for everyone else. Too amusing.

There's a reason the court said that the rights of government to protect potential life had to be weighed against the woman's right to control her own body. Life exists on a continuum and that was recognized in Roe.

Now, if all the folk who think government should be drowned in a bathtub will get government out of our bedrooms, life would be beautiful.

Not to mention that I would doubt the numbers and accuracy of the OPINION PIECE from the Weekly Standard.

Oh...and Allie, yeah, when the article is pages back and you make no reference to it in your post, I'd think you should post the link again.

I posted it.

I don't want the government in your bedroom. I want the government to stop paying into eugenics.

BTW, abortion was practiced quite a bit on your people during wwII, Jillie. I'm surprised you're so into it.

Oh that's right. You think that kids in big families or poor families aren't valuable. I forgot.

 

[jillian]

And you wonder why I think you're stupid?

 

[Shogun]

And once again, people who can barely govern their own lives, want to make moral decisions for everyone else. Too amusing.

who the fuck are you to make such a casual observation about people you don't know from Adam, jill? Hell, it's people who MANAGE to be sexually responsible that PROVE that such is possible without having to find excuses for allowing conception. Do you really want to open the pandora's box of personal assumptions?


There's a reason the court said that the rights of government to protect potential life had to be weighed against the woman's right to control her own body. Life exists on a continuum and that was recognized in Roe.

it's only a matter of time, jill. Older decisions than that have been overturned.


Now, if all the folk who think government should be drowned in a bathtub will get government out of our bedrooms, life would be beautiful.

uh, what? When have I ever suggested such a thing as the gov be drowned in a bathtub.. Ironic reference though considering the topic of killing babies though.

 

[Shogun]

So 10 cells is human? 2 cells? when? And is it immoral to freeze the fertilized eggs when there are extras? Or do you want to force women to have 10/11 kids at a time should they end up with that many successful fertilizations?

you've read my position and know where my line in the sand is: the heartbeat. And, im not making a case about MORALITY so you can put that little gun back in it's holster. Frozen fertilized eggs, do in fact, receive legal protection, yes? People don't tend to freeze frozen eggs in order to abort them, Jill. Yet, if I steal frozen eggs and let them die why don't you go ahead and admit the legal ramifications I would be facing.


Is an egg a chicken because it may be a chicken one day?

chickens are not humans. But, yes, when you eat a fucking omlet at denny's you know what kind of animal you are eating.



You think sex is only for making babies. How sad. Explains so many of your anger issues.

I never stated that. He said that sex is NOT for making babies and, in fact, it is. I'm quite vocal about the liberty to fuck to year hearts contentment as long as it's done responsibly. Maybe you should focus on what I DO say rather than what you think is easier to assume for the sake of your own weak rebuttals.


Though I do agree with you about the pedophile.

well, i have to say, I'm glad there are SOME people around here who does. I'm still reeling from disgust about that one.

 

[jillian]

who the fuck are you to make such a casual observation about people you don't know from Adam, jill? Hell, it's people who MANAGE to be sexually responsible that PROVE that such is possible without having to find excuses for allowing conception. Do you really want to open the pandora's box of personal assumptions?

Who am I? I'm someone who prefers to make my own decisions. The real arrogance is you and others thinking you can make moral decisions for others.

it's only a matter of time, jill. Older decisions than that have been overturned.

I think that boat has sailed, honey.

uh, what? When have I ever suggested such a thing as the gov be drowned in a bathtub.. Ironic reference though considering the topic of killing babies though.

Sure, baby, government can't tell you not to smoke in a restaurant, but you can make my moral decisions for me?

RAFLMAO!

 

[Ravi]

So here we are again. Allie and Soggy think young girls aren't mature enough to decide to have sex (which I agree with) and so they think that they should be punished by being forced to give birth...for something they aren't mature enough to do.

sigh

 

[jillian]

So 10 cells is human? 2 cells? when? And is it immoral to freeze the fertilized eggs when there are extras? Or do you want to force women to have 10/11 kids at a time should they end up with that many successful fertilizations?

you've read my position and know where my line in the sand is: the heartbeat. And, im not making a case about MORALITY so you can put that little gun back in it's holster. Frozen fertilized eggs, do in fact, receive legal protection, yes? People don't tend to freeze frozen eggs in order to abort them, Jill. Yet, if I steal frozen eggs and let them die why don't you go ahead and admit the legal ramifications I would be facing.

And you know that rationally, the heartbeat thing is stupid...and pointless... and that an amnio can't even be done before a heartbeat...nor can a selective termination in the case of multiples that someone can't carry. So save me your tea and sympathy. You want to make moral judgments. And if you don't, the folks with whom you're tossing in your hat on this issue sure do.

As for destroying frozen embryos, they'd be ramifications based on theft, not murder, as far as I know.

chickens are not humans. But, yes, when you eat a fucking omlet at denny's you know what kind of animal you are eating.

Yes... you're eating an egg... not a chicken. If it were chicken, it would cost more at Dennys.

I never stated that. He said that sex is NOT for making babies and, in fact, it is. I'm quite vocal about the liberty to fuck to year hearts contentment as long as it's done responsibly. Maybe you should focus on what I DO say rather than what you think is easier to assume for the sake of your own weak rebuttals.

What's the matter, don't like when someone engages in a little hyperbole with you. I mean, given you're so good at hysteria and all....

well, i have to say, I'm glad there are SOME people around here who does. I'm still reeling from disgust about that one.

I think there are a lot of us who are skeeved by the perv...

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I guess you are missing the point. That is only a solution for people who want a baby. Sex is N-O-T about making babies, no matter what twisted adults told you. Think of that one like 'if you masterbate you are killing babies'


not at all. test tube babies is a TESTIMONY of the humanity involved with the most basic cellular fertilization. Are you missing MY point?

your point above has nothing to do with arguments for or against abortion as an acceptable practice in society

And, sex is NOT about making babies? Thats funny.. it seems to be how everyone else is doing it. Masturbation does not involve the possibility of fertilizing an egg, does does is?

One can use sex to make babies, but sex is not all about making babies. How many ways do you imagine there are to perform sexual acts? I guess we need to agree on what we mean by the term 'sex' before we can move on.


Human beings are not animals? So you are putting a value on life after all?


not animals in the same regard as my lunch was. Of course i'm putting value on life; such is the platform of my position. However, I'm not interested in making some silly equivalence between a cow and a human. If you'd choose a cow instead of a human to save from a burning building then you are the pariah.

It depends on who the person is and who owns the cow. I've come to the conclusion long ago that some people are not worth saving. I have actually come o teh aid of people who's life style choices I despise, but I unlike many here(?) do not confuse a person's being with their personal choices in life style. I do judge a person on actions over words. I do judge the worth of individuals. I don't have any interest in setting the values of worth for everyone on the plane...only on those who enter my life space whether it br friends, acquaintances or leaders/preachers/pests...

Human life is more valuable to you than other life is?

yes.

wow! I'm impressed at your humanity. words. like Obama you want me to go on your words alone?




Eating a dead human as opposed to eating a dead cow may not be to your or my likings, but I hate to inform you this way...both are dead meat. even many religious people say there is a soul that departs the body and that the rest is but an empty vessel.

sorry, both are not merely dead meat. A dead cow is in no way, shape or form even remotely close to the same as a dead baby. Fact: I can take a .357 and go shoot a cow in the head right this minute and face no legal consequences. Can you make the same argument about a human child?

And, I don't care what religious people think about living vassals. Indeed, those same people don't believe cows have souls at all so your point is null and void.

your 357 arguments is silly. you are arguing what the law says you can do now? the law says abortion is legal and moral. I am not trying to convince you that you are wrong to oppose abortion. I am trying to get you to look at the logic and reasoning behind your arguments. maybe you could get better arguments...if they exist?


coat hanger arguments? if you do that again I will cease speaking the way I am with you. I hope you understand that I do not want to waste brain cells playing that silly game.

It's a reminder that there is more at state with abortions that the wounded liberty of the mother. A very REAL price is paid by the dead child besides having to deal with the invalidation of rampant irresponsibility. If you choose not to play ball then so be it. Hell, again, don't complain about emotional vocabulary when the entire premise of the pro-choice crowd DEPENDS on male dominated flashbacks to an entirely different time and place in America.

somebody very close to em had an illegal abortion way back when they were the way. I want to say more but can't. I will say that it destroyed a home and that person. It was a poor choice on their part. They were a flawed human being...imagine that? Why anyone would want to see women go back to illegal abortions (and make no mistake that will happen if...) by outlawing abortions is beyond my comprehension.



I do not like any emotional arguments about serious subjects being the basis for serious debate and law making. I too can be emotional about many subjects but I am mature enough to put it aside when speaking to people I expect a respectful back and forth with.

the ball is in your court



Shall I point out every emotional retort you bring to the table? Limiting the conversation won't win anyone over. If you want to play the game then do so. If not, then so be it.

emotional? I am anything but... this medium leaves much to be desired. but then again in real life I appear angry and emotional to some because of a cultural thing. think of it as smiling to a head hunter who sees a smile as an insult, a challenge to cut off your head. do not fuk with me if you want a serious and heartfelt conversation. If you do I will eat you for a snack and pit you out into a toilet full of shit.


see? it's all meant in fun...or is IT?

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Im not leaping around at all. In fact, you can delve into the health forum and dig up the rather infamous Great Shogun Abortion Compromise as you are not the first person to fell the consistency of my take on abortion. Indeed, weren't you JUST making a plea about leaving out emotions responses? Yet, you accuse me of jumping into the personal lives of others DESPITE the fact that YOU are the one totally ignoring the fetus whose life has been jumped into by a scalpel and a vacuum? Indeed, those actions DO affect our society because we lose every single genetically distinct human being that pays the ultimate price for the sake of INDIVIDUAL IRRESPONSIBILITY.

again, don't cry on my shoulder about the nature of my posts if THIS is all you can manage.

I have to say.. it's pretty telling that you missed how this post was a direct retort to Edetic's post.. yet it's MY post that you feel the urge to pounce on. Telling indeed.

I wasn't aware all abortions involve a scalpel and a...what is it...a vacuum?


you keep talking about the life of a fetus. is a fetus alive and when does an egg become a fetus? as far as your compromise...who gives a fuk, surely not me. I am not looking to see if you want a medal or a chest to pin it on. I am only looking for coherent argument from you or anyone. Minus that, I enjoy going to the zoo. want a peanut?...

 

[chrismac]

Just to clarify:

Whenever you ask people how they feel about abortion, most of them claim to be pro-choice. Then, they claim that they're against telling women what to do with their bodies.

My whole point is, one, pro-life isn't about that, and two, there's much closer to a general consensus about the impropriety of abortion than how to effectively deal with it.

People who are pro-choice claim to hate being called baby killers and "pro-abortion", but anytime the issue comes up, it just so happens that they never want to talk about the behaviors and the mindsets that play into abortion. They never want to talk about the irresponsible women who made a choice to be sexually active in the first place, who, in a lot of cases, chose not use any kind of protection, and chose to risk creating a child knowing they couldn't properly take care of one.

I really think the way in which a lot of people are pro-choice is what is morally corrosive to society. It's such reductionist logic: everything is filtered through this kind of four-year-old middle child logic: "if I not bothering you, I should be able to do whatever I want! Who died and made you the boss of the world?!" It's like, dude? You're supposed to be an adult, or at least capable of dealing with complex, and adult ideas. But no. The fact that killing a distinct genetic human being is reduced to "well, it's her body, she can do what she wants" is the type of mindset that is going to be our downfall. When did we become so morally bankrupt?

It's funny, because these same people who don't care about a fetus being sucked out its mother's womb by a tube are the same ones who apparently lose sleep because gay people can't legally get married. Human rights? *snorts*

 

[Shogun]

I wasn't aware all abortions involve a scalpel and a...what is it...a vacuum?


you keep talking about the life of a fetus. is a fetus alive and when does an egg become a fetus? as far as your compromise...who gives a fuk, surely not me. I am not looking to see if you want a medal or a chest to pin it on. I am only looking for coherent argument from you or anyone. Minus that, I enjoy going to the zoo. want a peanut?...

Indeed, as to your opinion of choice. who gives a fuck? Not the barely less than packed supreme court. And, if you don't know that an egg becomes a zygote upon fertalization then I suggest you tear up your high school diploma.

 

[eots]

a self-appointed savior with delusions of grandeur? are you a gay man?

of course I am not a gay man sodomites love abortion..

 

[eots]

awww the mute have a champion...how sweet

its a tough job but someone has to do it....