Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits

The Beduoin want to live where they are living - what's wrong with that?

It depends. It may be because Israel is building a road there. It may be that it is too close to a military area. It may be that it is a nature reserve or place of archeological significance.

It also depends on whether or not they are actively assisting the Palestinians to create "facts on the ground".

The Beduoin are Israeli citizens, and have even volunteered in the IDF. Therefore, it would seem to me they should get the SAME treatment as Jewish citizens. Every argument you make (without giving specifics I might add) seems to be arguing in favor of this discrimmination.

The example I gave was for Umm al-Hiran.

There is no road. It's not a nature reserve. It's not an archaeological preserve. What is replacing it is another, new village which will be a Jewish community. On the surface at least, it appears to be replacing one unrecognized village, with another recognized village and the only difference is ethnicity. Granted lack of appropriate infrastructure is a an understandable issue. However, illegal Arab communities built on state owned land do not get provided with infrastructure, legal assistance or funding while they are illegal. Many Jewish communities seem to.

According to this article:
The court’s decision ignored the fact that it was the state that moved the residents to the area 60 years ago, after removing them from their own land during the the 1948 Nakba. During those 60 years, people were born in the village, grew up, married, built houses, gave birth to children and even had grandchildren.

Moreover, the court did not relate to the fact that the state is not planning to use the land for a different purpose. Houses will be built on it and people will live in them, exactly as they do today — but they will be Jewish residents, not the Bedouin of

Thus, for example, the planning authorities based themselves from the start on the assumption that the original residents had tresspassed on the land. In addition, according to the admission of the state representative in court, the possibility of integrating the residents of the village within the new community was not even considered, as fairness would require.


The same article also notes the following:
  • It is convenient to forget that the lack of housing in Arab communities stems to a great extent from their limited municipal boundaries, which do not include state land and have never been expanded. Twenty percent of the population lives on 2.5 percent of the land.
  • It also stems from the lack of up-to-date master plans in most Arab comunities and from the consistent discrimination in the allocation of resources — only 5 percent of the tenders published by the Israel Lands Authority for new housing in 2014 were for Arab towns.
  • And it stems from the systematic exclusion of Arabs from government benefits and support. One example is the “target price” plan for affordable housing, which will be implemented in 30 Jewish communities and not a single Arab one.



Umm al-Hiran
Israel's Supreme Court on Tuesday rejected a petition by residents of the unrecognized Bedouin village of Umm al-Hiran against their removal and the demolition of the community – in order to construct a new town for Jewish residents in its place. The court ruled the land belongs to the state and the Bedouins have no legal rights to it.

...In November 2013, a number of families from the Abu Alkiyan clan, who live in the unrecognized community of Umm al-Hiran, filed a petition with the aid of Adalah – Legal Center for Arab Minority Rights in Israel, to prevent the demolition of their homes and the evacuation of the residents – after the cabinet approved the creation of Hiran and the demolition of their unrecognized village.

The petitioners claimed they did not squat on the land, but were transferred to the area in the Yattir Forest in 1956 by direct order of the military administration of the time. But now, their lands lie within the master plan of the Be’er Sheva metropolitan area. The government has never denied that the residents were moved to Umm al-Hiran by state authorities. Umm al-Hiran is now home to about 700 people, say residents, but like other Bedouin villages that lack official recognition as local municipal communities, it lacks infrastructure and electricity.

The Abu Alkiyan clan now resides in two villages, Atir and Umm al-Hiran, located near Wadi Atir, close to Route 316 and east of the village of Houra. Until 1948, the clan lived on the land now used by Kibbutz Shoval. After the War of Independence, they traveled across the Negev looking for new land, but did not find any, because most of it was already claimed by other tribes. In 1956, it approached the military administration and was transferred to the Wadi Atir area. A classified military administration document dating from 1957 says the clan received 7,000 dunams of land near the wadi. It then split into two hamlets that shared the land. Unlike in many Bedouin communities, the houses in Atir and Umm al-Hiran are built of stone.

Decade of house demolitions

Over the past decade houses in the village were demolished a number of times, and residents were offered a compromise of moving to the nearby town of Hura, where they would be compensated with an 800-square meter plot of land. But the families who petitioned the court refused the offer, saying they will not be removed from their land a third time.

Rubinstein wrote about this claim: “This is not expulsion and not expropriation, but the proposed evacuation involves various proposals of moving, construction, compensation and the possibility of homes, whether in the town of Hura where most of the residents of the illegal villages involved will be moved, or in the community of Hiran, which is to be built.”

In conclusion, Rubinstein said the issue of the Bedouin lands is one of the most difficult and challenging the court has dealt with, and is filled with sensitive emotions and political disputes.

Justice Daphne Barak-Erez, who disagreed with parts of Rubinstein’s opinion, criticized the government’s actions: “The petitioners cannot receive the full support they asked for, but it is also not possible to reconcile oneself with the flaws in the authorities’ actions concerning the decision on the evacuation and compensation involved.” She said the authorities should reconsider the compensation offered, since the residents had lived there for 20 years and were not trespassing. In addition the state should consider offering them a plot to live in the new town to be built on the land, in addition to the previous proposals, she suggested.

In 2012, the National Planning and Building Council approved the master plan for Hiran, the latest in a series of decisions on the matter by the state. Despite being approved, work on the town was delayed following the appeal by the Bedouin residents. Hiran is slated for 2,400 housing units, and the Bedouin can also choose to live there if they want, attorney Moshe Golan, representing the government, told the court in one of the hearings. But he noted the Bedouin residents would not receive the same 800-square meter plot in Hiran they would receive elsewhere, since the plots in Hiran were much smaller. The core group of families slated to move to Hiran are national religious Jews, who are to be joined by secular residents moving to the site from the nearby community of Meitar, along with others.


I agree, from everything I've read, the situation regarding the Beduoin is complicated. However, here is what I see.

This group of people have been displaced, forceably, twice. They are now to be displaced yet again from a community they've built and lived in for 20 years.

Supposedly, they can "choose to live" in the new village if they want, however, Israeli law allows communities to determine whether or not to allow residents to buy into the community and that law has allowed them to, in practice exclude certain ethnic groups. It's also creates the question of can they afford to?

Looking at this particular situation, I would ask the following questions:
  • Why should they be required to move yet a third time from a community they have been in for 20 years?
  • Would the same thing have happened if it were a Jewish community? You have made the case for the unfairness of forcing illegal Jewish communities and settlements that have been established to be evacuated - do you not have the same standard for Arab communities?
  • There are many examples where illegal Jewish communities have been funded, provided by the state with infrastructure, and legal help to fight demolition - why not this community?
  • Would you consider this discrimmination?

It rather reminds me of the way we treated native Americans - forced them out of their nomadic lifestyles onto reservations and then when something valuable was discovered on the reservation land or they wanted to open it up to settlers, they moved them again.

SOME have accepted Israeli citizenship, which is great, but the ones that haven't don't fall under the protections of nationals.

Even so ANYONE building a structure without a permit is subject to having it torn down
 
It looks like what is happening is Jewish settlers are given legal and illegal incentives to settle and become "facts on the ground"....

It is in Israel's interest to annex certain sections of Area C -- for security purposes primarily. "Facts on the ground" assist with this goal. And these considerations come into play. So, no, I do not have a problem with Israel retroactively legalizing some communities. Nor do I have a problem with Israel giving priority to the Jewish people.

but Palestinians are discriminated from the same process and their attempt to expand naturally, with population growth is severely restricted by Israel.

Their attempt to expand into Area C, for purposes of sometimes population growth and often creating their own "facts on the ground". Why should Israel support enemy foreign nationals against Israel's own interests?

Israel should simply annex it, give citizenship and be done with it.

I don't disagree. Israel should annex it, offer compensation to those Palestinians willing to leave voluntarily, grant citizenship to those who remain and remove citizenship from anyone who acts in any way against Israel's best interests or violates the peace, dropping them and all their dependants off at the border.
 
The example I gave was for Umm al-Hiran.

But, see, this is why it is important to understand these issues on a case-by-case basis rather than making broad, sweeping statements. Umm al-Hiran is atypical.

To my understanding, the people of Umm al-Hiran have refused relocation and compensation with both land and money. They have refused offers homes within the new community of Hiran.

Personally, for this particular village, my inclination would be to leave them where they are and build Hiran around them. Hook them up to the infrastructure. Provided that security does not become problematic.

Of course, this leaves them in the same position they are now -- unable to expand or build new homes without the appropriate permits and no legal title to the land.

Let's say this is what happens -- would you, twenty years from now, support the demolition of homes built there without a permit?


I don't see how any progress can be made on the housing issue until the combatant issue is settled.

The UNRWA refused to segregate combatant from refugee and lends aid to both. Which is against the laws of neutrality but hey, what does the UN care about neutrality.

There can be no fair determination concerning who can live where until its first determined who's eligible to live anywhere within Israel's borders.

Once the terrorists and those who aid or are suspected of being or aiding terrorists are gone then we can more reasonably begin to settle some of the rest of these issues.

But it sounds like tens of thousands of Arab Muslims are building homes illegally and the only reasonable solution is mass demolitions and a complete reworking of how aid is distributed in Israel.

Certainly the first thing that should happen is the UNRWA should be held on criminal charges of aiding and abetting a combatant
 
Interesting, and complicated. A war of competing illegal construction.

Well, no. A war of illegal construction vs. (mostly) legal construction. Area C, remember.

There are many illegal Jewish settlements (as defined by Israeli law). They are just as illegal as illegal Arab settlements.

The only difference is one group of settlements get's illegal support from the government, and the other gets it from the EU.

Illegal is illegal...or is it?

According to West Bank Areas in the Oslo II Accord - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia significant parts (40%?) of Area C are supposed to be handed over to Palestinian authority under the Oslo Accords.

In 1972, there were 1,000 Israeli settlers living in what is now Area C. By 1993, their population had increased to 110,000.[13] As of 2013, an estimated 350,000 Jewish settlers lived in Area C in Israeli settlements and outposts.[3] In 2013, some 300,000 Palestinians lived in Area C, scattered over 532 residential locations.[3] The majority of whom are Bedouin and farmers, constituting 5% of the Palestinian population, who are cut off from services available to other Palestinians in Areas A and B. In contrast to the Israeli settlers, the Palestinians are not allowed to travel free throughout Area C.

It looks like what is happening is Jewish settlers are given legal and illegal incentives to settle and become "facts on the ground"....but Palestinians are discriminated from the same process and their attempt to expand naturally, with population growth is severely restricted by Israel. When they build illegally - their homes are demolished. In an area with two populations under one nation's control - discrimminating against one in favor of the other seems to me like discrimmination. Israel should simply annex it, give citizenship and be done with it. If Jewish settlers are allowed to come in and settle and expand their communities shouldn't non-Jewish residents be given the same treatment?

Why wouldn't Israel legalize ALL Judaic communities ? EVERYTHING west of the Jordan is open to the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

Its extremely well stated within the last legally binding document
 
Why wouldn't Israel legalize ALL Judaic communities ? EVERYTHING west of the Jordan is open to the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

If the goal is a two (actually four) state solution -- and I think it should be for all sorts of reasons -- Israel doesn't want or need everything. She doesn't want the demographics or the stabbings. She wants to give the semblance of Palestinian nationhood -- even if the Palestinians can't bring themselves to take it. She wants to distance and protect herself from the craziness which is developing with the extremist Islamists.

There are some communities in Area C which just aren't viable to keep (not as many as you would think). Those communities should be immediately and routinely demolished. Its just not possible to provide security for them in a two (four) state solution. And its better to prevent their implantation and growth than to have to demolish them later.

Now, if you are in favour of a one state solution, and I think you are, you would want to keep and legalize as many Jewish communities as possible while encouraging their growth.
 
Yes. It is a complex situation. Are you saying that you support discrimmination and inequality in this situation?

I am saying that Israel is under no obligation to support enemy foreign nationals against Israel's own interests. And I am saying that security is a valid concern. And that both these things must be taken under consideration. Therefore, the charge of discrimination based purely on ethnicity is a false one.


When you posed the question of Palestinians not wanting any of the settlements to remain, you posed that as an issue of discrimmination.

What is the difference between Palestinians not wanting to support hostile foreign nationals and Israeli's not wanting to support hostile foreign nationals?
 
Why wouldn't Israel legalize ALL Judaic communities ? EVERYTHING west of the Jordan is open to the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

If the goal is a two (actually four) state solution -- and I think it should be for all sorts of reasons -- Israel doesn't want or need everything. She doesn't want the demographics or the stabbings. She wants to give the semblance of Palestinian nationhood -- even if the Palestinians can't bring themselves to take it. She wants to distance and protect herself from the craziness which is developing with the extremist Islamists.

There are some communities in Area C which just aren't viable to keep (not as many as you would think). Those communities should be immediately and routinely demolished. Its just not possible to provide security for them in a two (four) state solution. And its better to prevent their implantation and growth than to have to demolish them later.

Now, if you are in favour of a one state solution, and I think you are, you would want to keep and legalize as many Jewish communities as possible while encouraging their growth.

According to Oslo, which you have cited to support Israel's legality, Israel is supposed to withdraw to 61% of Area C. Is it's development reflected in that?
 
Why wouldn't Israel legalize ALL Judaic communities ? EVERYTHING west of the Jordan is open to the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

If the goal is a two (actually four) state solution -- and I think it should be for all sorts of reasons -- Israel doesn't want or need everything. She doesn't want the demographics or the stabbings. She wants to give the semblance of Palestinian nationhood -- even if the Palestinians can't bring themselves to take it. She wants to distance and protect herself from the craziness which is developing with the extremist Islamists.

There are some communities in Area C which just aren't viable to keep (not as many as you would think). Those communities should be immediately and routinely demolished. Its just not possible to provide security for them in a two (four) state solution. And its better to prevent their implantation and growth than to have to demolish them later.

Now, if you are in favour of a one state solution, and I think you are, you would want to keep and legalize as many Jewish communities as possible while encouraging their growth.

I'd call it a three state solution. Gaza Israel and Jordan

But I'd not give up another inch of Israel to the hostile Arab Muslims

I think its a minor point we disagree on here. I'd say once the non protected persons are removed from the disputed territories that the rest should be able to integrate relatively easily. Israel has proven itself a very good place to be a Muslim. So really I think in the end it would work out well.

Its jsut that the initial application of the Geneva Conventions would meet with some resistance.

But from a legal point of view its perfectly justifiable even if there's been some significant passage of time.
 
It looks like what is happening is Jewish settlers are given legal and illegal incentives to settle and become "facts on the ground"....

It is in Israel's interest to annex certain sections of Area C -- for security purposes primarily. "Facts on the ground" assist with this goal. And these considerations come into play. So, no, I do not have a problem with Israel retroactively legalizing some communities. Nor do I have a problem with Israel giving priority to the Jewish people.

If Israel gives priority to it's Jewish citizens over Arab citizens then that is the definition of discrimination.

but Palestinians are discriminated from the same process and their attempt to expand naturally, with population growth is severely restricted by Israel.

Their attempt to expand into Area C, for purposes of sometimes population growth and often creating their own "facts on the ground". Why should Israel support enemy foreign nationals against Israel's own interests?

39% of Area C is supposed to go to the Palestinians.


Israel should simply annex it, give citizenship and be done with it.
[

I don't disagree. Israel should annex it, offer compensation to those Palestinians willing to leave voluntarily, grant citizenship to those who remain and remove citizenship from anyone who acts in any way against Israel's best interests or violates the peace, dropping them and all their dependants off at the border.
[/QUOTE]

They should not remove citizenship from any citizen. That would be a violation of international law since they would then have no citizenship and no country is under abt obligation to take them.
 
Why wouldn't Israel legalize ALL Judaic communities ? EVERYTHING west of the Jordan is open to the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

If the goal is a two (actually four) state solution -- and I think it should be for all sorts of reasons -- Israel doesn't want or need everything. She doesn't want the demographics or the stabbings. She wants to give the semblance of Palestinian nationhood -- even if the Palestinians can't bring themselves to take it. She wants to distance and protect herself from the craziness which is developing with the extremist Islamists.

There are some communities in Area C which just aren't viable to keep (not as many as you would think). Those communities should be immediately and routinely demolished. Its just not possible to provide security for them in a two (four) state solution. And its better to prevent their implantation and growth than to have to demolish them later.

Now, if you are in favour of a one state solution, and I think you are, you would want to keep and legalize as many Jewish communities as possible while encouraging their growth.

According to Oslo, which you have cited to support Israel's legality, Israel is supposed to withdraw to 61% of Area C. Is it's development reflected in that?

The Oslo accords are a nonstarter, Israel withdrew from Gaza and the Gazans imediately militarized and started shooting. Obviously in violation of the accords 1 or 2.

There is no Oslo accords anymore. Its a dead deal.

IE contract law does not require one party to uphold the letter of a contract once the other has failed to uphold their obligations.

Basic contract law. Both international and national. I work with contracts right and left and these kinda things are express performance.
 
Why wouldn't Israel legalize ALL Judaic communities ? EVERYTHING west of the Jordan is open to the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

If the goal is a two (actually four) state solution -- and I think it should be for all sorts of reasons -- Israel doesn't want or need everything. She doesn't want the demographics or the stabbings. She wants to give the semblance of Palestinian nationhood -- even if the Palestinians can't bring themselves to take it. She wants to distance and protect herself from the craziness which is developing with the extremist Islamists.

There are some communities in Area C which just aren't viable to keep (not as many as you would think). Those communities should be immediately and routinely demolished. Its just not possible to provide security for them in a two (four) state solution. And its better to prevent their implantation and growth than to have to demolish them later.

Now, if you are in favour of a one state solution, and I think you are, you would want to keep and legalize as many Jewish communities as possible while encouraging their growth.

According to Oslo, which you have cited to support Israel's legality, Israel is supposed to withdraw to 61% of Area C. Is it's development reflected in that?

The Oslo accords are a nonstarter, Israel withdrew from Gaza and the Gazans imediately militarized and started shooting. Obviously in violation of the accords 1 or 2.

There is no Oslo accords anymore. Its a dead deal.

IE contract law does not require one party to uphold the letter of a contract once the other has failed to uphold their obligations.

Basic contract law. Both international and national. I work with contracts right and left and these kinda things are express performance.

You guys can't have your cake and eat it too. You can say on one hand that Oslo grants Israel the right to create settlements in Area C and then state on the other hand, that Oslo doesn't matter when it comes to how much of Area C Israel is entitled to.
 
The example I gave was for Umm al-Hiran.

But, see, this is why it is important to understand these issues on a case-by-case basis rather than making broad, sweeping statements. Umm al-Hiran is atypical.

To my understanding, the people of Umm al-Hiran have refused relocation and compensation with both land and money. They have refused offers homes within the new community of Hiran.

Personally, for this particular village, my inclination would be to leave them where they are and build Hiran around them. Hook them up to the infrastructure. Provided that security does not become problematic.

Of course, this leaves them in the same position they are now -- unable to expand or build new homes without the appropriate permits and no legal title to the land.

Let's say this is what happens -- would you, twenty years from now, support the demolition of homes built there without a permit?


From the way I see it - they've been there for what, 60 years, they've been forceably moved twice now. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) - Hiran didn't enter the plans until 2012?

Why not give them legal title to the land, or at least treat them the same way Jews are treated when they build on state lands and are legalized. Legalize them, connect them to infrastructure, and redesign Hiran. At least give them the CHOICE.
 
Why wouldn't Israel legalize ALL Judaic communities ? EVERYTHING west of the Jordan is open to the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

If the goal is a two (actually four) state solution -- and I think it should be for all sorts of reasons -- Israel doesn't want or need everything. She doesn't want the demographics or the stabbings. She wants to give the semblance of Palestinian nationhood -- even if the Palestinians can't bring themselves to take it. She wants to distance and protect herself from the craziness which is developing with the extremist Islamists.

There are some communities in Area C which just aren't viable to keep (not as many as you would think). Those communities should be immediately and routinely demolished. Its just not possible to provide security for them in a two (four) state solution. And its better to prevent their implantation and growth than to have to demolish them later.

Now, if you are in favour of a one state solution, and I think you are, you would want to keep and legalize as many Jewish communities as possible while encouraging their growth.

According to Oslo, which you have cited to support Israel's legality, Israel is supposed to withdraw to 61% of Area C. Is it's development reflected in that?

The Oslo accords are a nonstarter, Israel withdrew from Gaza and the Gazans imediately militarized and started shooting. Obviously in violation of the accords 1 or 2.

There is no Oslo accords anymore. Its a dead deal.

IE contract law does not require one party to uphold the letter of a contract once the other has failed to uphold their obligations.

Basic contract law. Both international and national. I work with contracts right and left and these kinda things are express performance.

You guys can't have your cake and eat it too. You can say on one hand that Oslo grants Israel the right to create settlements in Area C and then state on the other hand, that Oslo doesn't matter when it comes to how much of Area C Israel is entitled to.

Oslo didn't grant Israel the right to create settlements.

Actually Israel didn't create settlements. Its nation building.

The failed Arab League war gave Israel the right to build a nation on the lands it won through the failed Arab attempt at genocide. Also the UN granted everything west of the Jordan to Israel in the last legally binding instrument. The mandate and the Jordan memorandum.

Israel won the area by conquest and it wasn't until much later when the Arab nation dominated UN passed a non-binding resolution against land acquisition by conquest that the issue even came up.

Israel has every right to everything west of the Jordan. Check the Jordan Memorandum.

Its a no brainer, Israel can't be occupying land both granted to is in the Jordan memorandum and by right of conquest.

Israel isn't settling, Israel is nation building
 
Why wouldn't Israel legalize ALL Judaic communities ? EVERYTHING west of the Jordan is open to the creation of a national Jewish homeland.

If the goal is a two (actually four) state solution -- and I think it should be for all sorts of reasons -- Israel doesn't want or need everything. She doesn't want the demographics or the stabbings. She wants to give the semblance of Palestinian nationhood -- even if the Palestinians can't bring themselves to take it. She wants to distance and protect herself from the craziness which is developing with the extremist Islamists.

There are some communities in Area C which just aren't viable to keep (not as many as you would think). Those communities should be immediately and routinely demolished. Its just not possible to provide security for them in a two (four) state solution. And its better to prevent their implantation and growth than to have to demolish them later.

Now, if you are in favour of a one state solution, and I think you are, you would want to keep and legalize as many Jewish communities as possible while encouraging their growth.

According to Oslo, which you have cited to support Israel's legality, Israel is supposed to withdraw to 61% of Area C. Is it's development reflected in that?

The Oslo accords are a nonstarter, Israel withdrew from Gaza and the Gazans imediately militarized and started shooting. Obviously in violation of the accords 1 or 2.

There is no Oslo accords anymore. Its a dead deal.

IE contract law does not require one party to uphold the letter of a contract once the other has failed to uphold their obligations.

Basic contract law. Both international and national. I work with contracts right and left and these kinda things are express performance.

You guys can't have your cake and eat it too. You can say on one hand that Oslo grants Israel the right to create settlements in Area C and then state on the other hand, that Oslo doesn't matter when it comes to how much of Area C Israel is entitled to.

Oslo didn't grant Israel the right to create settlements.

Actually Israel didn't create settlements. Its nation building.

The failed Arab League war gave Israel the right to build a nation on the lands it won through the failed Arab attempt at genocide. Also the UN granted everything west of the Jordan to Israel in the last legally binding instrument. The mandate and the Jordan memorandum.

Israel won the area by conquest and it wasn't until much later when the Arab nation dominated UN passed a non-binding resolution against land acquisition by conquest that the issue even came up.

Israel has every right to everything west of the Jordan. Check the Jordan Memorandum.

Its a no brainer, Israel can't be occupying land both granted to is in the Jordan memorandum and by right of conquest.

Israel isn't settling, Israel is nation building

But it's "nation building" seems restricted to only one ethnic group among a citizenry composed of multiple ethnic groups.

Discrimmination?
 
When you posed the question of Palestinians not wanting any of the settlements to remain, you posed that as an issue of discrimmination.

What is the difference between Palestinians not wanting to support hostile foreign nationals and Israeli's not wanting to support hostile foreign nationals?

Actually, I think I posed it as an issue of ethnic cleansing.

In my mind, I'm being fair and reasonable and applying my criteria equally to both sides. When an agreement comes to be negotiated and implemented (let alone before) there should be no ethnic cleansing on either side. (Though, having said that, pragmatically, I think the Jews remaining in a Palestinian State wouldn't survive the week and therefore would encourage ethnic cleansing of Jews from the nascent Palestine. I know, its ugly. And I know I may not be giving the Palestinians enough credit, but there it is).

In the meantime, neither Israel nor Palestine should be obligated to support the interests of the enemy nationals within territory under its jurisdiction. In other words, its perfectly fair for both sides to create facts on the ground to support their own interests. (Though the Palestinians should realize that this gives very distinct advantages to Israel. For this reason I also support holding Israel to a higher standard than Palestinians in only creating facts on the ground in territory it intends to annex. A bit of an honor system, but I think Israel can manage it.)

The charge levied against Israel that it "discriminates" based on ethnicity and that it must not discriminate just doesn't take into consideration any of these political realities. Nor does it consider the same "discrimination" on the other side.
 
Why not give them legal title to the land, or at least treat them the same way Jews are treated when they build on state lands and are legalized. Legalize them, connect them to infrastructure, and redesign Hiran. At least give them the CHOICE.

They have been given the choice. And I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you in this particular case. They were moved there by Israel and have been there for 60 years. Israel needs to deal with them.

But let's say we legalize them. Let's say we give them legal title to the land they are using. Let's say we connect them to infrastructure. And let's say we build Hiran around them.

What happens, twenty years from now, when someone wants to build a house or an animal shed without a permit? Do we tear it down or not?
 
You guys can't have your cake and eat it too.
Sure we can.

You can't say on one hand that Oslo grants Israel the right to create settlements in Area C
Oslo is not the only thing which grants Israel those rights. Its just the most recent and most clear, and thus the easiest to argue.

and then state on the other hand, that Oslo doesn't matter when it comes to how much of Area C Israel is entitled to.
Ah, but Oslo does not demarcate territory for a final settlement. It doesn't create borders. Borders still have to be negotiated.
 
If the goal is a two (actually four) state solution -- and I think it should be for all sorts of reasons -- Israel doesn't want or need everything. She doesn't want the demographics or the stabbings. She wants to give the semblance of Palestinian nationhood -- even if the Palestinians can't bring themselves to take it. She wants to distance and protect herself from the craziness which is developing with the extremist Islamists.

There are some communities in Area C which just aren't viable to keep (not as many as you would think). Those communities should be immediately and routinely demolished. Its just not possible to provide security for them in a two (four) state solution. And its better to prevent their implantation and growth than to have to demolish them later.

Now, if you are in favour of a one state solution, and I think you are, you would want to keep and legalize as many Jewish communities as possible while encouraging their growth.

According to Oslo, which you have cited to support Israel's legality, Israel is supposed to withdraw to 61% of Area C. Is it's development reflected in that?

The Oslo accords are a nonstarter, Israel withdrew from Gaza and the Gazans imediately militarized and started shooting. Obviously in violation of the accords 1 or 2.

There is no Oslo accords anymore. Its a dead deal.

IE contract law does not require one party to uphold the letter of a contract once the other has failed to uphold their obligations.

Basic contract law. Both international and national. I work with contracts right and left and these kinda things are express performance.

You guys can't have your cake and eat it too. You can say on one hand that Oslo grants Israel the right to create settlements in Area C and then state on the other hand, that Oslo doesn't matter when it comes to how much of Area C Israel is entitled to.

Oslo didn't grant Israel the right to create settlements.

Actually Israel didn't create settlements. Its nation building.

The failed Arab League war gave Israel the right to build a nation on the lands it won through the failed Arab attempt at genocide. Also the UN granted everything west of the Jordan to Israel in the last legally binding instrument. The mandate and the Jordan memorandum.

Israel won the area by conquest and it wasn't until much later when the Arab nation dominated UN passed a non-binding resolution against land acquisition by conquest that the issue even came up.

Israel has every right to everything west of the Jordan. Check the Jordan Memorandum.

Its a no brainer, Israel can't be occupying land both granted to is in the Jordan memorandum and by right of conquest.

Israel isn't settling, Israel is nation building

But it's "nation building" seems restricted to only one ethnic group among a citizenry composed of multiple ethnic groups.

Discrimmination?

Not at all. Israel has offered citizenship to all the Arab Muslims in Israel. They refuse it.

Can't blame Israel for that

You also can't blame them for trying to segregate combatants. Security is an internationally accepted right. So again Israel is well within its rights to ensure a safe environment for its people.

Thats not racism, thats security.
 
But it's "nation building" seems restricted to only one ethnic group among a citizenry composed of multiple ethnic groups.

Well, that's an interesting discussion, isn't it? Aren't we trying to build two (four) nations here based on principles of self-determination and self-identification and national ethnicity? What is the point, if we do not discriminate (as in differentiate) between one and the other?

Should nations not be permitted to build a nation based around their own ethnicity and culture?
 
But it's "nation building" seems restricted to only one ethnic group among a citizenry composed of multiple ethnic groups.

Well, that's an interesting discussion, isn't it? Aren't we trying to build two (four) nations here based on principles of self-determination and self-identification and national ethnicity? What is the point, if we do not discriminate (as in differentiate) between on and the other?

Should nations not be permitted to build a nation based around their own ethnicity and culture?

When you have a nation with a citizenship of multiple ethnicities - should you favor one or some over others in treatment and opportunity and why?
 

Forum List

Back
Top