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And, just for a little perspective on the whole discrimination angle -- how easy do you think it would be for a Jewish Israeli to get a building permit from the PA for a home in Area B?
Unknown....I can't find any examples so it's only conjecture and a deflection. Do they even require building permits?
Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?
Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.
And, just for a little perspective on the whole discrimination angle -- how easy do you think it would be for a Jewish Israeli to get a building permit from the PA for a home in Area B?
Unknown....I can't find any examples so it's only conjecture and a deflection. Do they even require building permits?
No, its not a deflection. It is intended to illuminate whether or not you hold different standards for Jewish people vs. Arab Muslim Palestinians.
Should the PA permit non-citizens, foreign nationals, build illegally on land that is under PA jurisdiction? If those illegally built homes were to be demolished, would you consider it to be racial discrimination? Or is there something else going on here?
Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?
Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.
Because illegal settlements are illegal settlements, and private land, even when Palestinian IS private land that the government is actively attempting to circumvent the courts in order to obtain. I frankly don't think that is good or right, do you?
In the meantime, I did ask you one specific question though, that you've passed over (or maybe I missed it since the threads move fast?) - do you know of any illegal Arab communities that the state provides with infrastructure, funds, and help in winning court cases?
Besides all the Bedouin communities that they are trying to assist and compensate with custom-built towns just for them?
Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?
Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.
As per ethnic cleansing - war doesn't matter when it's civilian populations being expelled. Arab countries that expelled (as opposed to those where they fled) Jews were practicing ethnic cleansing.
Because illegal settlements are illegal settlements, and private land, even when Palestinian IS private land that the government is actively attempting to circumvent the courts in order to obtain. I frankly don't think that is good or right, do you?
I've made my position on private land very clear. (Although there are exceptions even to that -- the land emptied of Jews in Gaza was privately owned land).
But here you seem to be trying to make the issue very black-and-white -- all illegal homes and communities are illegal and shouldn't be permitted or should all be handled in the very same way. The situation is more complex than that.
There are illegal communities which essentially conform to Israel's planning for that area.
There are illegal communities which block a planned road.
There are illegal communities which are intended for the purpose of creating "facts on the ground" -- both in line with and contrary to Israel's political goals.
There are illegal communities which are built on land intended for school expansions, hospitals, nature reserves and military zones.
And dozens of other situations. They all are handled differently, because they are different.
Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?
Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.
As per ethnic cleansing - war doesn't matter when it's civilian populations being expelled. Arab countries that expelled (as opposed to those where they fled) Jews were practicing ethnic cleansing.
So badly want to respond to this, but it is so off-topic. Grin.
However - they are still illegal. Why is the government providing infrastructure, funding, and extensive legal support to fight court rulings....do illegal Arab settlements get that same support? (I can not find any examples).
...
So, compare that to what happens when Jewish settlers build illegally on state land or Palestinian land and the government supplies them with infrastructure, financial backing and legal help - even to the point of retaining privately owned Palestinian land. But illegal Arab villages, from what I can tell have never been supplied with infrastructure and that is one of the reasons they end up demolished or refused permits.
The problem with the above statement is that it is only sometimes true. Sometimes, Jewish settlers building illegally on State land are supplied with infrastructure, financial backing and legal help. Sometimes, Jewish settlers are essentially ignored. Sometimes, illegal Jewish settlements are demolished.
Ageed - it's sometimes or maybe often true, though not always. The fact that the government supports and funds illegal activities like that should be disturbing.
Sometimes, Arab villages in the Negev are provided with infrastructure and legalized. Sometimes, illegal Arab villages are demolished and the residents offered land elsewhere along with compensation (such as the Umm al-Hiran case). Sometimes, new communities are built and both Jewish people and Bedouin people buy homes and live there.
Can you provide any examples of illegal Arab villages provided with infrastructure while they were still illegal?
If the plan is to build a village there, why can't the Beduoin stay and why can't it be their village? Why must they be moved out and Jews moved in? The government fought for and is still fighting for that one settlement, that is built partially on privately owned land and trying to get land swaps - but they won't do it for their Bedouin citizens?
The Bedouin pose some particular problems. Essentially, a nomadic peoples uprooted and displaced by war, and then squeezed out by increasing urbanization.
Agree.
But why, do you think the Bedouin should be able to claim land that is not theirs and build on it?
Because the Jews can, so why shouldn't the Bedouin be able to and why shouldn't they enjoy the same government support? You have often asked me why shouldn't Jews be able to, so why can't the Beduoin?
Actually, though - it's possible they have rights to some of it, I believe it's still in the courts.
Why is it Israel's responsibility to provide the Arabs with infra structure ? Its the Arabs that destroy Israeli infrastructure to the point where they can't be trusted with it.
Why can't the Arabs learn to do a few things for themselves ? Or do any Arab countries focus on infrastructure.
Here's Gazas sewage system and they've had decades and billions of dollars to set it straight.
Guaranteed it'd be the first thing I'd see fixed. So why do the Arabs leave it this way for decades ?
My bet is it was all built without permits and without proper engineering. In which case it should all be torn down except that this isn't Israel its Gaza and they're responsible for themselves.
Seems cultural to me. So again why is Israel responsible to bring the Arab Muslims up to the living standards of the civilized world ?
Because Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens.
Yeah no
The vast majority of Arabs have refused Israeli citizenship. Which means Israel owes them nothing
However - they are still illegal. Why is the government providing infrastructure, funding, and extensive legal support to fight court rulings....do illegal Arab settlements get that same support? (I can not find any examples).
Illegally built communities of foreign nationals, of course, would not get the same support. (Duh, right?)
Illegally built communities of Israeli citizens can and do, sometimes, get that support -- Bedouin villages as examples.
And as to why the government is doing it with Jewish communities built illegally: it supports Israel's political and security goals -- ensuring a united Jerusalem that is not a border town, a security issue; ensuring swift and direct passage through to Jericho and the eastern border also for security reasons; and building in areas which Israel intends to annex.
Coyote : The PA and the EU are providing funds to Palestinians to build illegally on land under Israel's jurisdiction. Do you have any comments on that?
Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?
Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.
We're just talking about Palestine. The Palestinians aren't responsible for the actions of the other Arab nations.
But let's say you include all of them....
Palestinian Refugees:
711,000 Palestinians fled or were expelledfrom 1946-48 conflict.
280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from the 6-day war.
So that is between 991,000 - 1,036,000.
900,000 Jews fled or were expelled from Arab countries between 1948-1970's.
Now, how does that compare with Boston's claims?
And, what does it have to do with the Palestinian refugees? They aren't responsible for the actions of other countries.
Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?
Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.
As per ethnic cleansing - war doesn't matter when it's civilian populations being expelled. Arab countries that expelled (as opposed to those where they fled) Jews were practicing ethnic cleansing.
...
The problem with the above statement is that it is only sometimes true. Sometimes, Jewish settlers building illegally on State land are supplied with infrastructure, financial backing and legal help. Sometimes, Jewish settlers are essentially ignored. Sometimes, illegal Jewish settlements are demolished.
Ageed - it's sometimes or maybe often true, though not always. The fact that the government supports and funds illegal activities like that should be disturbing.
Sometimes, Arab villages in the Negev are provided with infrastructure and legalized. Sometimes, illegal Arab villages are demolished and the residents offered land elsewhere along with compensation (such as the Umm al-Hiran case). Sometimes, new communities are built and both Jewish people and Bedouin people buy homes and live there.
Can you provide any examples of illegal Arab villages provided with infrastructure while they were still illegal?
If the plan is to build a village there, why can't the Beduoin stay and why can't it be their village? Why must they be moved out and Jews moved in? The government fought for and is still fighting for that one settlement, that is built partially on privately owned land and trying to get land swaps - but they won't do it for their Bedouin citizens?
The Bedouin pose some particular problems. Essentially, a nomadic peoples uprooted and displaced by war, and then squeezed out by increasing urbanization.
Agree.
But why, do you think the Bedouin should be able to claim land that is not theirs and build on it?
Because the Jews can, so why shouldn't the Bedouin be able to and why shouldn't they enjoy the same government support? You have often asked me why shouldn't Jews be able to, so why can't the Beduoin?
Actually, though - it's possible they have rights to some of it, I believe it's still in the courts.
Why is it Israel's responsibility to provide the Arabs with infra structure ? Its the Arabs that destroy Israeli infrastructure to the point where they can't be trusted with it.
Why can't the Arabs learn to do a few things for themselves ? Or do any Arab countries focus on infrastructure.
Here's Gazas sewage system and they've had decades and billions of dollars to set it straight.
Guaranteed it'd be the first thing I'd see fixed. So why do the Arabs leave it this way for decades ?
My bet is it was all built without permits and without proper engineering. In which case it should all be torn down except that this isn't Israel its Gaza and they're responsible for themselves.
Seems cultural to me. So again why is Israel responsible to bring the Arab Muslims up to the living standards of the civilized world ?
Because Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens.
Yeah no
The vast majority of Arabs have refused Israeli citizenship. Which means Israel owes them nothing
The "vast majority"?
From Wikipedia:
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2013 was estimated at 1,658,000, representing 20.7% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins and Druze tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8][9][10][11]
Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israel's claim to sovereignty. They became permanent residents instead.[12] They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.[13]
I can't find an actual source that shows how many Arab Israeli's are citizens and how many are not.
Approximately 14% of the Arab population lives in East Jerusalem:
Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 2006, the official number of Arab residents in Israel was 1,413,500 people, about 20 percent of Israel’s population. This figure includes 209,000 Arabs (14% of the Israeli Arab population) in East Jerusalem, also counted in the Palestinian statistics, although 98 percent of East Jerusalem Palestinians have either Israeli residency or Israeli citizenship
I don't think there is a very big Arab population left in the Golan Heights - just 24,000 or so.
So...given all that - I think your claim that the "vast majority" of Arabs in Israel refused citizenship is patently false.
Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?
Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.
We're just talking about Palestine. The Palestinians aren't responsible for the actions of the other Arab nations.
But let's say you include all of them....
Palestinian Refugees:
711,000 Palestinians fled or were expelledfrom 1946-48 conflict.
280,000 to 325,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled from the 6-day war.
So that is between 991,000 - 1,036,000.
900,000 Jews fled or were expelled from Arab countries between 1948-1970's.
Now, how does that compare with Boston's claims?
And, what does it have to do with the Palestinian refugees? They aren't responsible for the actions of other countries.
Compares perfectly except you've inflated the number of Arab Muslims who ended up actually moving due to the Arab Muslim declaration of war on Israel in 1948
Most of those Arab Muslims up and moved because their own people told them too, not because of the Israeli's defending themselves.
Oh I'm sure you can find a hundred thousand or so who might have moved because of direct Israeli action but that'd be about it ;--)
;--)
Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?
Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.
As per ethnic cleansing - war doesn't matter when it's civilian populations being expelled. Arab countries that expelled (as opposed to those where they fled) Jews were practicing ethnic cleansing.
...
Ageed - it's sometimes or maybe often true, though not always. The fact that the government supports and funds illegal activities like that should be disturbing.
Can you provide any examples of illegal Arab villages provided with infrastructure while they were still illegal?
If the plan is to build a village there, why can't the Beduoin stay and why can't it be their village? Why must they be moved out and Jews moved in? The government fought for and is still fighting for that one settlement, that is built partially on privately owned land and trying to get land swaps - but they won't do it for their Bedouin citizens?
Agree.
Because the Jews can, so why shouldn't the Bedouin be able to and why shouldn't they enjoy the same government support? You have often asked me why shouldn't Jews be able to, so why can't the Beduoin?
Actually, though - it's possible they have rights to some of it, I believe it's still in the courts.
Why is it Israel's responsibility to provide the Arabs with infra structure ? Its the Arabs that destroy Israeli infrastructure to the point where they can't be trusted with it.
Why can't the Arabs learn to do a few things for themselves ? Or do any Arab countries focus on infrastructure.
Here's Gazas sewage system and they've had decades and billions of dollars to set it straight.
Guaranteed it'd be the first thing I'd see fixed. So why do the Arabs leave it this way for decades ?
My bet is it was all built without permits and without proper engineering. In which case it should all be torn down except that this isn't Israel its Gaza and they're responsible for themselves.
Seems cultural to me. So again why is Israel responsible to bring the Arab Muslims up to the living standards of the civilized world ?
Because Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens.
Yeah no
The vast majority of Arabs have refused Israeli citizenship. Which means Israel owes them nothing
The "vast majority"?
From Wikipedia:
According to Israel's Central Bureau of Statistics, the Arab population in 2013 was estimated at 1,658,000, representing 20.7% of the country's population.[2] The majority of these identify themselves as Arab or Palestinian by nationality and Israeli by citizenship.[5][6][7] Many have family ties to Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, as well as to Palestinian refugees in Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon. Negev Bedouins and Druze tend to identify more as Israelis than other Arab citizens of Israel.[8][9][10][11]
Most of the Arabs living in East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, occupied by Israel in the Six-Day War of 1967 and later annexed, were offered Israeli citizenship, but most have refused, not wanting to recognize Israel's claim to sovereignty. They became permanent residents instead.[12] They have the right to apply for citizenship, are entitled to municipal services, and have municipal voting rights.[13]
I can't find an actual source that shows how many Arab Israeli's are citizens and how many are not.
Approximately 14% of the Arab population lives in East Jerusalem:
Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
In 2006, the official number of Arab residents in Israel was 1,413,500 people, about 20 percent of Israel’s population. This figure includes 209,000 Arabs (14% of the Israeli Arab population) in East Jerusalem, also counted in the Palestinian statistics, although 98 percent of East Jerusalem Palestinians have either Israeli residency or Israeli citizenship
I don't think there is a very big Arab population left in the Golan Heights - just 24,000 or so.
So...given all that - I think your claim that the "vast majority" of Arabs in Israel refused citizenship is patently false.
Its 100% accurate. And having refused citizenship they do not enjoy the protections afforded citizens. Couldn't be any simpler.
Ok - can you give me specific examples of Arab Israeli illegal settlements getting government support in infrastructure, funding, or legal help?
In your last paragraph, are you are stating that these sort of discriminatory actions by the government between Jewish Israeli's and Arab Israeli's are defensible? We're talking about citizens.
