Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits

[Shusha]

...
Because the Jews can,...

No. They can't. No individuals in Israel can just go build a house on state land and expect to claim it as "their" land and stay. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes communities are retroactively legalized. Sometimes Jewish communities are retroactively legalized and sometimes Arab communities are retroactively legalized. Sometimes Jewish communities are demolished and sometimes Arab communities are demolished.

Like in most countries -- building of communities and infrastructure is based on planning and building permits. First the planning. Then the infrastructure. Then the building permits. Then the homes are build and people move in. That's the way things should be done.

The Bedouins in that area are not prevented or restricted from buying homes in the community which is planned there.

The problem with both groups of people circumventing this process is the idea that this particular dunam of land is somehow "theirs". Its not.

 

[Shusha]

well yeah, but how many of the Arab Muslims refuse to become Israeli citizens ?

Most.

So why is Israel responsible for providing for non citizens ? ...

Well, yes. Exactly. Normally, of course, nations would be expected to grant certain privileges to their permanent residents (though not necessarily ALL the privileges that a citizen enjoys). My mother is a permanent resident of Canada but not a citizen. She is entitled to many, but not all, of the privileges of being a citizen.

But...there is a political aspect to this as well. The reason many Palestinians choose not to become Israeli citizens is because they refuse to recognize Israel's sovereignty. They actively reject being part of Israel while expecting to benefit and even use Israel to achieve their own political goals -- such as creating "facts on the ground" in East Jerusalem by building illegally.

But if Israel intends to keep all of Jerusalem -- and I'm quite certain she does -- she has to walk a very fine line between being fair and achieving her own political goals.

 

[Boston1]

well yeah, but how many of the Arab Muslims refuse to become Israeli citizens ?

Most.

So why is Israel responsible for providing for non citizens ? ...

Well, yes. Exactly. Normally, of course, nations would be expected to grant certain privileges to their permanent residents (though not necessarily ALL the privileges that a citizen enjoys). My mother is a permanent resident of Canada but not a citizen. She is entitled to many, but not all, of the privileges of being a citizen.

But...there is a political aspect to this as well. The reason many Palestinians choose not to become Israeli citizens is because they refuse to recognize Israel's sovereignty. They actively reject being part of Israel while expecting to benefit and even use Israel to achieve their own political goals -- such as creating "facts on the ground" in East Jerusalem by building illegally.

But if Israel intends to keep all of Jerusalem -- and I'm quite certain she does -- she has to walk a very fine line between being fair and achieving her own political goals.

In the end Israel will be forced to eject most non citizens. but regardless its not responsible for anything but security for its non citizen population. The UNWRA is responsible for everything else.

 

[Coyote]

...
Because the Jews can,...

No. They can't. No individuals in Israel can just go build a house on state land and expect to claim it as "their" land and stay. Sometimes it happens. Sometimes communities are retroactively legalized. Sometimes Jewish communities are retroactively legalized and sometimes Arab communities are retroactively legalized. Sometimes Jewish communities are demolished and sometimes Arab communities are demolished.

But they DO. And it's not just sometimes communities are retroactively legalized.

Israel legalizes hundreds of West Bank settler homes

This is just a recent example.

How many Jewish communities get demolished?
How many Arab communities get demolished?

Can you give me any examples of illegal Arab communities that are provided with government-sponsored infrastructure prior to legalization?

Like in most countries -- building of communities and infrastructure is based on planning and building permits. First the planning. Then the infrastructure. Then the building permits. Then the homes are build and people move in. That's the way things should be done.

True. But what happens when those plans get held up for political reasons? (example the plans for Jerusalem). Is that the way things "should" get done? According to the article, plans for Jewish construction are far more often given the green light than plans for Arab construction. Why?

The Bedouins in that area are not prevented or restricted from buying homes in the community which is planned there.

Why is it they must be moved but other illegal communities (even those build partly on privately owned land) can stay - with the government FIGHTING a court battle to have them stay AND stay on private land by attempting to negotiate land swaps?

The problem with both groups of people circumventing this process is the idea that this particular dunam of land is somehow "theirs". Its not.

Agree. My only quibble here is that some people are allowed to circumvent this process and other people are not.

 

[Coyote]

Why is it Israel's responsibility to provide the Arabs with infra structure ?

It is absolutely, positively, 100% Israel's responsibility to provide for quality of life and infrastructure to ALL her citizens -- with no discrimination based on ethnicity, religion, place of origin, or anything else. Come on. What are we trying to build here? We can't -- absolutely must not -- lose our humanity and our morality in the struggle. We must be better than that.

That said, it is absolutely, positively, 100% NOT Israel's responsibility to provide quality of life and infrastructure to foreign nationals or non-citizens (those who reside in areas A and B and Gaza).

And, it is entirely Israel's responsibility to control illegal building and to legalize or demolish based on the needs of the individuals involved and on the needs of Israel as a whole. And yes, part of that is the political goal of supporting and even encouraging Jewish immigration to Israel in general and to those territories in Area C which it intends to annex (probably unilaterally since a peace treaty seems to be getting farther and farther away).

And when that goal leads to discrimination and the inability of residents to expand?

 

[Coyote]

Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News

That article is pay-walled, so I'm not able to look at it. But one of the problems with discussing Jerusalem is the point I'm trying to make -- it doesn't differentiate between Arab Israeli citizens and Palestinian residents.

Even Palestinian residents - whether citizens or not, should have equal treatment in the permit process. Israel took Jerusalem and that includes the residents.

What I'e been reading suggests that building permits are granted in roughly the same percentages in both Arab and Jewish sections of Jerusalem. And actually Arab areas actually have been permits for a higher number of square feet. See here. So it seems like there is more going on here than news reports would suggest and someone is putting a spin on it.

I don't trust reporting from Camera (probably like you feel about B'tselem) - that's why I've been trying to use mainstream news sources when I can. I think Camera might be putting a spin on things.

I did post a longer portion of the article here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/13717976/Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits[/URL] (unfortunately I can't access the article as I've reached the free access allotment).

I also found more examples in other articles I posted here: Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits

It might also be of note that thousands Israeli's gave up their homes in Gaza not long ago and they did have permits. ;--)

And many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians gave up their homes...

 

[Coyote]

...

So, compare that to what happens when Jewish settlers build illegally on state land or Palestinian land and the government supplies them with infrastructure, financial backing and legal help - even to the point of retaining privately owned Palestinian land. But illegal Arab villages, from what I can tell have never been supplied with infrastructure and that is one of the reasons they end up demolished or refused permits.

The problem with the above statement is that it is only sometimes true. Sometimes, Jewish settlers building illegally on State land are supplied with infrastructure, financial backing and legal help. Sometimes, Jewish settlers are essentially ignored. Sometimes, illegal Jewish settlements are demolished.

Ageed - it's sometimes or maybe often true, though not always. The fact that the government supports and funds illegal activities like that should be disturbing.

Sometimes, Arab villages in the Negev are provided with infrastructure and legalized. Sometimes, illegal Arab villages are demolished and the residents offered land elsewhere along with compensation (such as the Umm al-Hiran case). Sometimes, new communities are built and both Jewish people and Bedouin people buy homes and live there.

Can you provide any examples of illegal Arab villages provided with infrastructure while they were still illegal?

If the plan is to build a village there, why can't the Beduoin stay and why can't it be their village? Why must they be moved out and Jews moved in? The government fought for and is still fighting for that one settlement, that is built partially on privately owned land and trying to get land swaps - but they won't do it for their Bedouin citizens?

The Bedouin pose some particular problems. Essentially, a nomadic peoples uprooted and displaced by war, and then squeezed out by increasing urbanization.

Agree.

But why, do you think the Bedouin should be able to claim land that is not theirs and build on it?

Because the Jews can, so why shouldn't the Bedouin be able to and why shouldn't they enjoy the same government support? You have often asked me why shouldn't Jews be able to, so why can't the Beduoin?

Actually, though - it's possible they have rights to some of it, I believe it's still in the courts.

Why is it Israel's responsibility to provide the Arabs with infra structure ? Its the Arabs that destroy Israeli infrastructure to the point where they can't be trusted with it.

Why can't the Arabs learn to do a few things for themselves ? Or do any Arab countries focus on infrastructure.

Here's Gazas sewage system and they've had decades and billions of dollars to set it straight.

Guaranteed it'd be the first thing I'd see fixed. So why do the Arabs leave it this way for decades ?

My bet is it was all built without permits and without proper engineering. In which case it should all be torn down except that this isn't Israel its Gaza and they're responsible for themselves.

Seems cultural to me. So again why is Israel responsible to bring the Arab Muslims up to the living standards of the civilized world ?

Because Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens.

 

[Shusha]

How many Jewish communities get demolished?
How many Arab communities get demolished?

Or, even better, what percentage of illegally built Jewish communities get demolished vs. what percentage of illegally built Arab communities get demolished? If you have access to that information, please let me in on it.

 

[Shusha]

My only quibble here is that some people are allowed to circumvent this process and other people are not.

Some people are sometimes allowed to circumvent this process -- BOTH Jewish and Arab. Is it the one more than the other? Quite probably. But again, why should Israel assist foreign nationals -- non-citizens -- in creating "facts on the ground" which are contrary to Israel's political goals?

 

[Boston1]

Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News

That article is pay-walled, so I'm not able to look at it. But one of the problems with discussing Jerusalem is the point I'm trying to make -- it doesn't differentiate between Arab Israeli citizens and Palestinian residents.

Even Palestinian residents - whether citizens or not, should have equal treatment in the permit process. Israel took Jerusalem and that includes the residents.

What I'e been reading suggests that building permits are granted in roughly the same percentages in both Arab and Jewish sections of Jerusalem. And actually Arab areas actually have been permits for a higher number of square feet. See here. So it seems like there is more going on here than news reports would suggest and someone is putting a spin on it.

I don't trust reporting from Camera (probably like you feel about B'tselem) - that's why I've been trying to use mainstream news sources when I can. I think Camera might be putting a spin on things.

I did post a longer portion of the article here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/13717976/Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits[/URL] (unfortunately I can't access the article as I've reached the free access allotment).

I also found more examples in other articles I posted here: Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits

It might also be of note that thousands Israeli's gave up their homes in Gaza not long ago and they did have permits. ;--)

And many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians gave up their homes...

So the million or so Judaic people that gave up their homes just in the immediate area kinda make up for the 100,000 or so Arabs that may have lost their homes to actual Israeli military action ?

 

[Boston1]

...

So, compare that to what happens when Jewish settlers build illegally on state land or Palestinian land and the government supplies them with infrastructure, financial backing and legal help - even to the point of retaining privately owned Palestinian land. But illegal Arab villages, from what I can tell have never been supplied with infrastructure and that is one of the reasons they end up demolished or refused permits.

The problem with the above statement is that it is only sometimes true. Sometimes, Jewish settlers building illegally on State land are supplied with infrastructure, financial backing and legal help. Sometimes, Jewish settlers are essentially ignored. Sometimes, illegal Jewish settlements are demolished.

Ageed - it's sometimes or maybe often true, though not always. The fact that the government supports and funds illegal activities like that should be disturbing.

Sometimes, Arab villages in the Negev are provided with infrastructure and legalized. Sometimes, illegal Arab villages are demolished and the residents offered land elsewhere along with compensation (such as the Umm al-Hiran case). Sometimes, new communities are built and both Jewish people and Bedouin people buy homes and live there.

Can you provide any examples of illegal Arab villages provided with infrastructure while they were still illegal?

If the plan is to build a village there, why can't the Beduoin stay and why can't it be their village? Why must they be moved out and Jews moved in? The government fought for and is still fighting for that one settlement, that is built partially on privately owned land and trying to get land swaps - but they won't do it for their Bedouin citizens?

The Bedouin pose some particular problems. Essentially, a nomadic peoples uprooted and displaced by war, and then squeezed out by increasing urbanization.

Agree.

But why, do you think the Bedouin should be able to claim land that is not theirs and build on it?

Because the Jews can, so why shouldn't the Bedouin be able to and why shouldn't they enjoy the same government support? You have often asked me why shouldn't Jews be able to, so why can't the Beduoin?

Actually, though - it's possible they have rights to some of it, I believe it's still in the courts.

Why is it Israel's responsibility to provide the Arabs with infra structure ? Its the Arabs that destroy Israeli infrastructure to the point where they can't be trusted with it.

Why can't the Arabs learn to do a few things for themselves ? Or do any Arab countries focus on infrastructure.

Here's Gazas sewage system and they've had decades and billions of dollars to set it straight.

Guaranteed it'd be the first thing I'd see fixed. So why do the Arabs leave it this way for decades ?

My bet is it was all built without permits and without proper engineering. In which case it should all be torn down except that this isn't Israel its Gaza and they're responsible for themselves.

Seems cultural to me. So again why is Israel responsible to bring the Arab Muslims up to the living standards of the civilized world ?

Because Israeli Arabs are Israeli citizens.

Yeah no

The vast majority of Arabs have refused Israeli citizenship. Which means Israel owes them nothing

 

[Shusha]

Oh, and lookie what I found:

Human rights lawyer Justus Reid Weiner, a scholar-in-residence at the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs, has just completed the first systematic study of illegal construction in Jerusalem. Based on scores of interviews from across the political spectrum - from Mayor Olmert to Sari Nusseibeh, original documents, and on-site inspections...

In the Jewish neighborhoods, illegal construction typically takes the form of additions to existing legal structures - such as closing a balcony or hollowing out under a building to create an extra room. In the Arab sector, however, illegal construction often takes the form of entire multi-floor buildings with 4 to 25 living units, built with the financial assistance of the Palestinian Authority on land that is not owned by the builder.

• Illegal construction has reached epidemic proportions. A senior Palestinian official boasted that they have built 6,000 homes without permits during the last 4 years, of which less than 200 were demolished by the city.
• This frantic pace of illegal construction continues despite the fact that the city has authorized more than 36,000 permits for new housing units in the Arab sector, more than enough to meet the needs of Arab residents through legal construction until 2020. ...

And, the piece of information I was looking for:

Looks like Jerusalem is demolishing Jewish illegal structures at a MUCH higher rate than Arab illegal structures. (Though, admittedly, this is a bit old).

 

[Shusha]

Coyote , I haven't finished reading all of this yet, but this is an exceptional article on the political reasoning behind Israel's building policy, especially about security aspects and why illegal Palestinian building is problematic for Israel. It is rather long.

Edited to add: One interesting point of the article, relevant to our discussion, is a number of possible reasons why a particular community (whether Arab or Jewish) might be retroactively legalized vs. demolished. It would depend, in part, on the planned use of that land in the future. A community built on a planned road, or a national park would likely be demolished while a community built on land planned for residential use might be permitted to stay.

All in all, I think we are generally doing a disservice to the discussion to over-simplify it.

 

[Shusha]

And, just for a little perspective on the whole discrimination angle -- how easy do you think it would be for a Jewish Israeli to get a building permit from the PA for a home in Area B?

 

[Coyote]

How many Jewish communities get demolished?
How many Arab communities get demolished?

Or, even better, what percentage of illegally built Jewish communities get demolished vs. what percentage of illegally built Arab communities get demolished? If you have access to that information, please let me in on it.

I'll look...

In the meantime, I did ask you one specific question though, that you've passed over (or maybe I missed it since the threads move fast?) - do you know of any illegal Arab communities that the state provides with infrastructure, funds, and help in winning court cases?

 

[Coyote]

And, just for a little perspective on the whole discrimination angle -- how easy do you think it would be for a Jewish Israeli to get a building permit from the PA for a home in Area B?

Unknown....I can't find any examples so it's only conjecture and a deflection. Do they even require building permits?

 

[Coyote]

Only 7% of Jerusalem building permits go to Palestinian neighborhoods - Israel News

That article is pay-walled, so I'm not able to look at it. But one of the problems with discussing Jerusalem is the point I'm trying to make -- it doesn't differentiate between Arab Israeli citizens and Palestinian residents.

Even Palestinian residents - whether citizens or not, should have equal treatment in the permit process. Israel took Jerusalem and that includes the residents.

What I'e been reading suggests that building permits are granted in roughly the same percentages in both Arab and Jewish sections of Jerusalem. And actually Arab areas actually have been permits for a higher number of square feet. See here. So it seems like there is more going on here than news reports would suggest and someone is putting a spin on it.

I don't trust reporting from Camera (probably like you feel about B'tselem) - that's why I've been trying to use mainstream news sources when I can. I think Camera might be putting a spin on things.

I did post a longer portion of the article here: http://www.usmessageboard.com/posts/13717976/Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits[/URL] (unfortunately I can't access the article as I've reached the free access allotment).

I also found more examples in other articles I posted here: Israel continues to demolish the homes built without permits

It might also be of note that thousands Israeli's gave up their homes in Gaza not long ago and they did have permits. ;--)

And many hundreds of thousands of Palestinians gave up their homes...

So the million or so Judaic people that gave up their homes just in the immediate area kinda make up for the 100,000 or so Arabs that may have lost their homes to actual Israeli military action ?

What million or so?

Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?

 

[Shusha]

In the meantime, I did ask you one specific question though, that you've passed over (or maybe I missed it since the threads move fast?) - do you know of any illegal Arab communities that the state provides with infrastructure, funds, and help in winning court cases?

Besides all the Bedouin communities that they are trying to assist and compensate with custom-built towns just for them?

 

[Shusha]

Between 1946-48, the estimate is: 711,000 Palestinian refugees forced out by the Israelis.
How many Jewish refugees were forced out by the Palestinians?

Nearly a million were forced out by the surrounding Arab nations. Straight up ethnic cleansing since there was no war going on in those nations.

 

[Coyote]

My only quibble here is that some people are allowed to circumvent this process and other people are not.

Some people are sometimes allowed to circumvent this process -- BOTH Jewish and Arab. Is it the one more than the other? Quite probably. But again, why should Israel assist foreign nationals -- non-citizens -- in creating "facts on the ground" which are contrary to Israel's political goals?

Because illegal settlements are illegal settlements, and private land, even when Palestinian IS private land that the government is actively attempting to circumvent the courts in order to obtain. I frankly don't think that is good or right, do you?

And, I still would like to know if there are any illegal Arab Israeli settlements that the government has supported with infrastructure, funding and legal help.