Israeli soldiers are killing themselves

[ForeverYoung436]

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families.

Okay. So you acknowledge that Israel is under attack. And you acknowledge that she has a right to defend herself from these attacks. Yes? So far so good, right?

Your argument is in the scope of her response is morally incorrect. So, paint a picture for me. Tell me what you think the appropriate response should be.

I believe there is very little I can tell you. Also, books and learned journal articles have been written on the disproportionate "response" of the Israeli military to virtually harmless crude firecrackers launched by rogues. Collective and massive punishment of Palestinian families for the antics of some hooligans is completely shocking and immoral. This deserves a thread of its own.

I tried to relate your post to the OP by saying that it must play on a young soldier's mind after he gets involved in such mayhem. I am not an expert; I do not know what research has been done on this. Some IDF might be among those who committed wrong acts when maintaining the occupation and became suicidal. The point is, the release of the IDF document did not tell us of the investigations, if any, into the causes of the suicides or the data relating to depression among IDF conscripts. I suspect they want to keep this Top Secret.

In general, Israelis are a tough breed, but surely the amount of responsibility thrust upon them at such a young age is probably detrimental to their mental health. I was a baby at 18, but my 8 cousins (now 7 of them) were drafted at that age. One 18-year-old cousin of mine was given a huge tank to drive and accidentally drove into an Arab woman's house, while at the same age, here in America, I was given a ticket for clumsy parking--big difference! Also, most of my cousins were secular and didn't care about protecting Abraham's, Rachel's, and Joseph's tombs from the Arabs, frankly. But they came out stronger from the experience--well, except for Amichai.

 

[Eloy]

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families.

Okay. So you acknowledge that Israel is under attack. And you acknowledge that she has a right to defend herself from these attacks. Yes? So far so good, right?

Your argument is in the scope of her response is morally incorrect. So, paint a picture for me. Tell me what you think the appropriate response should be.

I believe there is very little I can tell you. Also, books and learned journal articles have been written on the disproportionate "response" of the Israeli military to virtually harmless crude firecrackers launched by rogues. Collective and massive punishment of Palestinian families for the antics of some hooligans is completely shocking and immoral. This deserves a thread of its own.

I tried to relate your post to the OP by saying that it must play on a young soldier's mind after he gets involved in such mayhem. I am not an expert; I do not know what research has been done on this. Some IDF might be among those who committed wrong acts when maintaining the occupation and became suicidal. The point is, the release of the IDF document did not tell us of the investigations, if any, into the causes of the suicides or the data relating to depression among IDF conscripts. I suspect they want to keep this Top Secret.

In general, Israelis are a tough breed, but surely the amount of responsibility thrust upon them at such a young age is probably detrimental to their mental health. I was a baby at 18, but my 8 cousins (now 7 of them) were drafted at that age. One 18-year-old cousin of mine was given a huge tank to drive and accidentally drove into an Arab woman's house, while at the same age, here in America, I was given a ticket for clumsy parking--big difference! Also, most of my cousins were secular and didn't care about protecting Abraham's, Rachel's, and Joseph's tombs from the Arabs, frankly. But they came out stronger from the experience--well, except for Amichai.

Stronger because of the occupation I do not understand. Harder, I do.

 

[Phoenall]

Your implication that the stress on a young conscript in the IDF raiding and ransacking Palestinian homes in Hebron in the dead of night is less than the average Israeli, say a boy of 7 in a Haifa primary school or a scientist in a Tel Aviv laboratory strikes me as complacent -- an attitude not conducive to recognizing the problem of suicide in the IDF and a determination to prevent it.

Actually, if you had read the entirety of the link you posted, you would see that Israel does quite a bit to prevent it. You would also know that Israel has been extremely successful at lowering its suicide rate throughout society in the past ten years. AND you would know that even the re-introduction of permitting soldiers to take their weapons home when on leave did not raise the suicide rate.

What your true intent was for this thread was to demonize Israeli soldiers and Israeli society.

Of course I read the article I cited and noted the glaring absence of any analysis of the cause of Israeli soldiers who continue to kill themselves despite being allowed to take their assault weapons home and other interventions.
I suggested one cause which is one more than was offered by the IDF, namely, the depressing dehumanizing operations which IFD soldiers are ordered to do to maintain the brutal occupation of their nearest neighbors, the Palestinian people.
Please have the courtesy to quit inventing motivations for my posts which are products of your own suspicious mind.

I ask again what brutal occupation ?

Using emotive words does your cause no favours and actually reduces it by a large factor. Next you will be claiming that the occupation is illegal ( shown to be legal by the ICC ) and does not meet the criteria laid down in the Geneva conventions.
So please do the board the courtesy to quit LYING about Israel and inventing facts that you know can never be proven, which are nothing more than figments of your brainwashed and influenced brain.

 

[Phoenall]

Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

I think being an Israeli soldier is challenging and difficult. (Of course, being neither an Israeli nor a soldier, I don't know, I can only imagine). But I think you misunderstand the "societal expectations". The primary expectation of soldiers, both externally from society and as an internal motivation, is to protect innocent citizens from harm. That is their job. That is what they do.

They wouldn't be forced to DO that job if Israel wasn't under near daily attack from those wishing to bring harm upon her innocent citizens. That's the circus within which the IDF is playing.

The false thinking that is demonstrated time and time again on this board is the idea that Israel is somehow required not to respond to threats and actions against her and her innocent citizens. Here's an idea: why don't we instead require people to stop attacking Israel and Israel's innocent citizens?

The other false thinking is the idea that appeasement of Arab Muslim demands will lead to peace. There is absolutely no evidence that this is true -- and in fact there are plenty of examples that instead, appeasement only fortifies the Arab Muslims belief that continued violence will bring them more of whatever it is they decide to demand.

The way through this is to stop falsely accusing Israel of "brutal polices" and start recognizing Israel's response to constant threat is both legally and morally correct (with some exceptions) and largely measured and restrained. The way through this is to require Arab Palestinians to immediately cease all forms of violence against Israel and her citizens.

Some of us have not swallowed the Israeli bogus claim that their repression of the invaded and massacred Palestinian people has to do with self defense. It is not. Rather the military operations of the IDF are designed to demoralize, destroy, and keep under the Israeli occupation and blockade their nearest neighbors, the Palestinian people.

And the evidence freely available calls you a liar and a fool. Prior to the seperation barrier the numbers of suicide bombing increased to a level that unsustainable for Israeli's, after the barriers were put in place the numbers dropped to zero.

 

[Phoenall]

It is reported by The Times of Israel that the top cause of death among the Israel Defense Force (IDF) in 2016 was suicide. "Fifteen IDF soldiers — all of them male — committed suicide last year, the same number as the year before and the year before that, according to a senior official in the IDF’s Manpower Directorate."
Suicide was top cause of death for IDF soldiers in 2016
No explanation for these suicides was offered by the IDF but it stands to reason that some young soldiers might find themselves conscripted and expected to enforce a brutal occupation of of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and this must cause considerable stress especially on those who struggle to resist being dehumanized in the process. Consider that: "Of the soldiers who committed suicide, for instance, 12 were conscripts, two were career soldiers, and one was a reservist."

All soldiers everywhere suffer from higher than normal suicide rates.

Part of the reason is due to the stress from the separation cause by duty.

Part is due to having been taught to solve problems in combat with a gun.

And in some cases it is Susie sending him her Dear John letter.

Your list is not exhaustive, principally by omitting the one I proposed in the case of the IDF's occupation of Palestine.

Which is not a factor as they would face much worse if palestine was not occupied. And palestine would be a crumbling pile of debris as a result of the lifting of the occupation. You would see Syria and Lebanon all over again if that was to happen

 

[Phoenall]

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families.

Okay. So you acknowledge that Israel is under attack. And you acknowledge that she has a right to defend herself from these attacks. Yes? So far so good, right?

Your argument is in the scope of her response is morally incorrect. So, paint a picture for me. Tell me what you think the appropriate response should be.

I believe there is very little I can tell you. Also, books and learned journal articles have been written on the disproportionate "response" of the Israeli military to virtually harmless crude firecrackers launched by rogues. Collective and massive punishment of Palestinian families for the antics of some hooligans is completely shocking and immoral. This deserves a thread of its own.

I tried to relate your post to the OP by saying that it must play on a young soldier's mind after he gets involved in such mayhem. I am not an expert; I do not know what research has been done on this. Some IDF might be among those who committed wrong acts when maintaining the occupation and became suicidal. The point is, the release of the IDF document did not tell us of the investigations, if any, into the causes of the suicides or the data relating to depression among IDF conscripts. I suspect they want to keep this Top Secret.

In general, Israelis are a tough breed, but surely the amount of responsibility thrust upon them at such a young age is probably detrimental to their mental health. I was a baby at 18, but my 8 cousins (now 7 of them) were drafted at that age. One 18-year-old cousin of mine was given a huge tank to drive and accidentally drove into an Arab woman's house, while at the same age, here in America, I was given a ticket for clumsy parking--big difference! Also, most of my cousins were secular and didn't care about protecting Abraham's, Rachel's, and Joseph's tombs from the Arabs, frankly. But they came out stronger from the experience--well, except for Amichai.

Stronger because of the occupation I do not understand. Harder, I do.

And that is where you fall down, as you cant see the truth even when it is in your face

 

[Phoenall]

Please have the courtesy to quit inventing motivations for my posts which are products of your own suspicious mind.

You are accusing me of inventing motivations? How utterly ironic.

The rate of suicide in the Israeli military forces is exactly on par with the rate of suicide in the general population despite easy, immediate access to an effective method of committing suicide. There is no need to establish any kind of "special" motivation for suicide in the IDF. Its the same as would be found generally in the population.

Please reply to my argument which is that your generalizing from the entire population is a misunderstanding of valid statistics. Sub populations such as conscripted IDF soldiers are under more stress that the "average" Israeli which is why I mentioned a small schoolboy or a lab researcher. I spelled it out for you but you continue to use a statistical fallacy.

In other words stop using facts against me that you know I cant counter, you are making me look a complete fool

 

[Phoenall]

Some of us have not swallowed the Israeli bogus claim that their repression of the invaded and massacred Palestinian people has to do with self defense. It is not.

So wait, what?

Are you claiming that Israel, and her citizens are not actually being attacked?

Or are you claiming that Israel and her citizens are being attacked but have no right to defend themselves?

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families. You are into statistics a bit. You know the numbers dead and wounded, and the amount of mayhem. No. No reasonable human being believes these are actions of self defence.

What decent IDF soldier could live with himself after this, it must be wondered.

Going on your posts if one of these high explosive charges went of 100 yards from you we would be looking for clean trousers for you. They are deadly because of their payload, something you refuse to accept. Many are biological/Chemical in origin, and include W.P. 6 years after it was banned, Flechets, warfarin, rotten meat and a whole host of other illegal products.

What decent American could live with themselves after supporting and defending the violence dream up by islamonazi terrorists, it must be wondered what suicidal thoughts they must be having after partying hard to the results of the palestinians attacks on children.

Did yu hear about the tunnels dug by hamas into Israel that were packed with high explosives, they ended under schools in Israel

 

[Phoenall]

Neither.
When the Israelis want to periodically massacre Palestinian people in Gaza, they will respond to some ineffective fireworks from a few rogues with a whole-scale pulverization of the people, their homes, schools, hospitals, and infrastructure by Israeli military, bombardment by artillery, air force rockets, navy shelling and disproportionate grief on innocent children and their families.

Okay. So you acknowledge that Israel is under attack. And you acknowledge that she has a right to defend herself from these attacks. Yes? So far so good, right?

Your argument is in the scope of her response is morally incorrect. So, paint a picture for me. Tell me what you think the appropriate response should be.

I believe there is very little I can tell you. Also, books and learned journal articles have been written on the disproportionate "response" of the Israeli military to virtually harmless crude firecrackers launched by rogues. Collective and massive punishment of Palestinian families for the antics of some hooligans is completely shocking and immoral. This deserves a thread of its own.

I tried to relate your post to the OP by saying that it must play on a young soldier's mind after he gets involved in such mayhem. I am not an expert; I do not know what research has been done on this. Some IDF might be among those who committed wrong acts when maintaining the occupation and became suicidal. The point is, the release of the IDF document did not tell us of the investigations, if any, into the causes of the suicides or the data relating to depression among IDF conscripts. I suspect they want to keep this Top Secret.

Lifted directly from the hate sites that constantly claim that qassams are just firecrackers.

Here are your firecrackers, go and buy some from your local shop

And what they do

 

[rylah]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

 

[rylah]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

I think I saw You referring to my experience

However it's not that relevant to this discussion.
All I did was calmly deny to serve, read and slept through my short time there and got on with my life. I was a working musician and had a family to support.

All I'm saying, I guess, is that like in any modern country there's a variety of perfectly lawful and well known tools to use when dealing with any organization. They even gave me a free lawyer who helped me present my case, and that was enough for them.

 

[Eloy]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

I was unaware that the requirement to serve in the Israeli military could be dropped should someone prefer to serve in Bet'selem and other NGOs. I am supposing then that service in an NGO will gain the same privileges afterwards as a demobilized soldier. I am also supposing that a good deal of pro-IDF propaganda is given to children in secondary school in order to encourage participation as something patriotic and an expected norm of society.

 

[rylah]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

I was unaware that the requirement to serve in the Israeli military could be dropped should someone prefer to serve in Bet'selem and other NGOs. I am supposing then that service in an NGO will gain the same privileges afterwards as a demobilized soldier. I am also supposing that a good deal of pro-IDF propaganda is given to children in secondary school in order to encourage participation as something patriotic and an expected norm of society.

The privileges are different of course. A soldier to be can acquire a technical degree with certain relevant privileges before enlisting and use the experience in the army to continue in the h-tech industry, security, defense, govt, medicine.... or whatever he wishes to do well.

On the other hand , a civil servant can study political sciences, medicine, journalism, accounting...You see where I'm going.

In other words, one wouldn't expect a civil servant to work well in the military complex as well as an engineer to go organize demonstrations or work in an ambulance.

As for discrimination, it really depends on the person as in any issue.
Anyway the civil worker, the soldier and the one who didn't serve at all- they all can find a boss if they're willing to put the effort. Or develop a business.

At the end of the day Israelis are practical people, it's called a "startup nation" for a reason- Israeli young generation has a wide variety of options and tools to succeed.

 

[Eloy]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

I was unaware that the requirement to serve in the Israeli military could be dropped should someone prefer to serve in Bet'selem and other NGOs. I am supposing then that service in an NGO will gain the same privileges afterwards as a demobilized soldier. I am also supposing that a good deal of pro-IDF propaganda is given to children in secondary school in order to encourage participation as something patriotic and an expected norm of society.

The privileges are different of course. A soldier to be can acquire a technical degree with certain relevant privileges before enlisting and use the experience in the army to continue in the h-tech industry, security, defense, govt, medicine.... or whatever he wishes to do well.

On the other hand , a civil servant can study political sciences, medicine, journalism, accounting...You see where I'm going.

In other words, one wouldn't expect a civil servant to work well in the military complex as well as an engineer to go organize demonstrations or work in an ambulance.

As for discrimination, it really depends on the person as in any issue.
Anyway the civil worker, the soldier and the one who didn't serve at all- they all can find a boss if they're willing to put the effort. Or develop a business.

At the end of the day Israelis are practical people, it's called a "startup nation" for a reason- Israeli young generation has a wide variety of options and tools to succeed.

Although your post is informative, I fear you have strayed from the topic of the OP which is suicide among IDF soldiers.

 

[rylah]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

I was unaware that the requirement to serve in the Israeli military could be dropped should someone prefer to serve in Bet'selem and other NGOs. I am supposing then that service in an NGO will gain the same privileges afterwards as a demobilized soldier. I am also supposing that a good deal of pro-IDF propaganda is given to children in secondary school in order to encourage participation as something patriotic and an expected norm of society.

As for the IDF propaganda, again by calling it propaganda it doesn't turn the same old tradition of triggering the young generation to want to serve in the army. It occurs in Your country as well as in the US, UK, Russia, China and any modern state. This is actually the essence of govt- to protect its' people.

We see the same Hollywood movies and have the same open Internet.
And again instead of IDF one can serve in some pro Palestinian NGO, what more that that do You need to have a freedom to think and act?

 

[rylah]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

I was unaware that the requirement to serve in the Israeli military could be dropped should someone prefer to serve in Bet'selem and other NGOs. I am supposing then that service in an NGO will gain the same privileges afterwards as a demobilized soldier. I am also supposing that a good deal of pro-IDF propaganda is given to children in secondary school in order to encourage participation as something patriotic and an expected norm of society.

The privileges are different of course. A soldier to be can acquire a technical degree with certain relevant privileges before enlisting and use the experience in the army to continue in the h-tech industry, security, defense, govt, medicine.... or whatever he wishes to do well.

On the other hand , a civil servant can study political sciences, medicine, journalism, accounting...You see where I'm going.

In other words, one wouldn't expect a civil servant to work well in the military complex as well as an engineer to go organize demonstrations or work in an ambulance.

As for discrimination, it really depends on the person as in any issue.
Anyway the civil worker, the soldier and the one who didn't serve at all- they all can find a boss if they're willing to put the effort. Or develop a business.

At the end of the day Israelis are practical people, it's called a "startup nation" for a reason- Israeli young generation has a wide variety of options and tools to succeed.

Although your post is informative, I fear you have strayed from the topic of the OP which is suicide among IDF soldiers.

So what do You suggest, we open all borders and send soldiers home because someone there is waving a slogan of "brutal occupation"?

 

[Phoenall]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

The UK had a similar system during WW2 when people could elect to do war work like mining or shipbuilding rather than go to war

 

[Eloy]

I had a 19-year-old cousin who was found dead a few months after being drafted into the IDF. Most likely it was a suicide, but my devastated uncle and aunt would not allow a formal investigation. The thing is that in Israel people look at you cross-eyed if you never did the Army. Additionally, besides being looked upon as weird, many career opportunities are lost to you. Therefore, not only did my uncle and aunt not try to prevent him from being drafted, although it was clear beforehand that he had major issues, but they actually did all they could to insure he was drafted. They hoped it would "make a man out of him." But he was a delicate boy and there was one drill sargeant who was especially harsh with him. I believe rylah once commented here that he was put in jail for refusing to join the IDF. That is also a consideration in Israel. rylah was very brave in that regard.

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

I was unaware that the requirement to serve in the Israeli military could be dropped should someone prefer to serve in Bet'selem and other NGOs. I am supposing then that service in an NGO will gain the same privileges afterwards as a demobilized soldier. I am also supposing that a good deal of pro-IDF propaganda is given to children in secondary school in order to encourage participation as something patriotic and an expected norm of society.

As for the IDF propaganda, again by calling it propaganda it doesn't turn the same old tradition of triggering the young generation to want to serve in the army. It occurs in Your country as well as in the US, UK, Russia, China and any modern state. This is actually the essence of govt- to protect its' people.

We see the same Hollywood movies and have the same open Internet.
And again instead of IDF one can serve in some pro Palestinian NGO, what more that that do You need to have a freedom to think and act?

Of the 28 European Union states only 5 have conscription and visits of military to schools is the exception. In fact, there is an outreach to schools by anti-military groups in several EU countries.
Mandatory military service in Europe - SWI swissinfo.ch
Counter-Recruitment and the Campaign to Demilitarize Public Schools
It is altogether different from the programming of Israeli students by the IDF.

 

[Eloy]

It saddened me to read of your cousin's death. Some people are sensitive and they are better because of it. They act as a reminder to the rest of us if what constitutes human values.
Being conscripted for military service in Israel must be a nightmare for anyone who does not share the societal expectations and approval of the brutal policies enforced by the occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem.
I believe a rethink is needed by the Israeli people about what they want Israel to represent in today's world for themselves and their neighbors.

Again let me explain the situation a bit clearer.
In Israel there're 2 was to serve the country- either through a) IDF or b) Civil Service.

In the 1st option there're many possibilities of employment.
However the 2nd option gives You the ability to serve in the Ambulance or work in any of the available organizations.
You would be SHOCKED to see the most pro- Palestinian NGO's on the list of option b). Organizations like Bet'selem and other 'Israeli sympathizers'.

I think there's a full list somewhere, of NGO's that people can serve in instead of IDF, and many do.
Otherwise where do You think anti-semites take their info from?
Exactly from such organizations that reside and work in Israel, financed by the Israeli taxpayer and foreign support (PA, EU, US, Qatar).

I was unaware that the requirement to serve in the Israeli military could be dropped should someone prefer to serve in Bet'selem and other NGOs. I am supposing then that service in an NGO will gain the same privileges afterwards as a demobilized soldier. I am also supposing that a good deal of pro-IDF propaganda is given to children in secondary school in order to encourage participation as something patriotic and an expected norm of society.

The privileges are different of course. A soldier to be can acquire a technical degree with certain relevant privileges before enlisting and use the experience in the army to continue in the h-tech industry, security, defense, govt, medicine.... or whatever he wishes to do well.

On the other hand , a civil servant can study political sciences, medicine, journalism, accounting...You see where I'm going.

In other words, one wouldn't expect a civil servant to work well in the military complex as well as an engineer to go organize demonstrations or work in an ambulance.

As for discrimination, it really depends on the person as in any issue.
Anyway the civil worker, the soldier and the one who didn't serve at all- they all can find a boss if they're willing to put the effort. Or develop a business.

At the end of the day Israelis are practical people, it's called a "startup nation" for a reason- Israeli young generation has a wide variety of options and tools to succeed.

Although your post is informative, I fear you have strayed from the topic of the OP which is suicide among IDF soldiers.

So what do You suggest, we open all borders and send soldiers home because someone there is waving a slogan of "brutal occupation"?

I suggest that young Israelis would be subject to less pressure were the IDF to return to behind the 1967 border which they have been instructed to do according to international law.

 

[RoccoR]

Eloy, et al,

Ah, that is a just one of several questions.

I suggest that young Israelis would be subject to less pressure were the IDF to return to behind the 1967 border which they have been instructed to do according to international law.

(COMMENT)

Just which "International Law" actually says that?

• Security Council Resolution 242 According to its Drafters

Lord Caradon (Hugh M. Foot) was the permanent representative of the United Kingdom to the United Nations, 1964-1970, and chief drafter of Resolution 242.

Eugene Rostow, a legal scholar and former dean of Yale Law School, was US Undersecretary of State for Political Affairs, 1966-1969. He helped draft Resolution 242.

Arthur J. Goldberg was the United States representative to the United Nations, 1965-1968, and before that a U.S. Supreme Court justice. He helped draft Resolution 242.

Baron George-Brown (George A. Brown) was the British Foreign Secretary from 1966 to 1968. He helped draft Resolution 242.

J. L. Hargrove was Senior Adviser on International Law to the United States Mission to the United Nations, 1967-1970:​

On 31 July 1988, King Hussein announced the severance of all administrative and legal ties with the occupied West Bank; known by the Hashemite Kingdom as the "Disengagement from the West Bank." Accordingly, electoral districts were redrawn to represent East Bank constituencies only. What governmental authroty was in place on 1 August 1988.

Q What are the modes of acquiring territorial sovereignty?

There mere act of discovery by one state is not enough to confer a title by occupation. There are two requirements

• (i) the territory subject to claim must not be under the sovereignty of nay state ( terra nullius)
• (ii) the state must have effectively occupied the territory.

Finally, ther is the question of the Oslo Accords and the 1994 Treaty with Jordan that finally end the War of Independence with Jordan. In that Treaty, the International Boundary is stipulated in Article 3 - International Boundary.

It is not so easy to just say --- in accordance with International Law. You cannot use UNSC Resolution 242 (according to the authors), you cannot ignore the Jordanian territorial abandonment, and you cannot ignore the written word between Israel (the Occupation Power) and Jordan (the Sovereign Power) by Treaty.

If it was just one single piece of evidence that was questionable, that would be different. But in this case, you have four pieces of evidence.

• Testimony by the Authors.
• Jordanian abandonment
• Oslo Accords
• Treaty outline of International Boundary
​

What does the anti-semitic side have.

Remember that the act to make such law as to deny the Jewish State of Israel such rights as to jeopardize the safety of the sovereignty of the people and the nation is essentially word and puts Israel in a position to defend itself. The generation of a mask to obscure, under the color of law, the true reason for the lack of protection (Jewish minority 'vs' the overwhelming numbers in the Arab League) and to give the appearance that there is some basis in law to put the Jewish People and nation at risk is pure subterfuge of the first order in magnitude. It becomes a means to extort territory from the Israelis at the risk of regional security.

Most Respectfully,
R