Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

How do the people exercise sovereignty.

As you can see, in each case, the intension of the Sovereign Power (Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic) was to surrender/renounce the Title and Rights of the territory in favor of the Allied Powers.

Indeed, and they held the territory in trust on behalf of the inhabitants. It is the people who have the right to sovereignty.

Look it up.

(COMMENT)

The Allied Powers had both the Title and Rights. Whatever the Allied Powers did (or did not do) was an internal issue -- to be interpreted and settled between the Allied Powers. The Covenant was a product of the Allied Powers. They can interpret it any way they want. It was not up to the Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory either then or now.

In 1920, the Allied Powers had determined that a Jewish National Home (JNH) would be established in the Mandate for Palestine which they crafted (San Remo). The Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory where not a party to or an author of, the intent or implementation of the Mandate; either then or now. The agreements, between the signatories of the Covenant, were matters of consideration for the signatories of the Covenant. It was not a matter for consideration place before the Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

How do the people exercise sovereignty.

As you can see, in each case, the intension of the Sovereign Power (Ottoman Empire/Turkish Republic) was to surrender/renounce the Title and Rights of the territory in favor of the Allied Powers.

Indeed, and they held the territory in trust on behalf of the inhabitants. It is the people who have the right to sovereignty.

Look it up.

(COMMENT)

The Allied Powers had both the Title and Rights. Whatever the Allied Powers did (or did not do) was an internal issue -- to be interpreted and settled between the Allied Powers. The Covenant was a product of the Allied Powers. They can interpret it any way they want. It was not up to the Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory either then or now.

In 1920, the Allied Powers had determined that a Jewish National Home (JNH) would be established in the Mandate for Palestine which they crafted (San Remo). The Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory where not a party to or an author of, the intent or implementation of the Mandate; either then or now. The agreements, between the signatories of the Covenant, were matters of consideration for the signatories of the Covenant. It was not a matter for consideration place before the Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory.

Most Respectfully,
R

You do have a problem understanding popular sovereignty.

Recognizing​

that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,

Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237​

 

[montelatici]

The Allied Powers could not interpret the Covenant any way they wanted. Words have meaning and express legal concepts. The Christian and Muslim "inhabitants" of Palestine had the right to self-determination as did the inhabitants of the other former Turkish territories that came under the tutelage (not sovereignty) of the various Mandatories. These rights did not accrue to people living in Europe, regardless want a prior agreement stated.

Any prior agreements that ran contrary to the Covenant, as the Balfour Declaration were to have abrogated by signatories of the Covenant pursuant to article 20 of the Covenant, to wit:

"ARTICLE 20.
The Members of the League severally agree that this Covenant is accepted as abrogating all obligations or understandings inter se which are inconsistent with the terms thereof, and solemnly undertake that they will not hereafter enter into any engagements inconsistent with the terms thereof.

In case any Member of the League shall, before becoming a Member of the League, have undertaken any obligations inconsistent with the terms of this Covenant, it shall be the duty of such Member to take immediate steps to procure its release from such obligations.'

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Allied Powers could not interpret the Covenant any way they wanted. Words have meaning and express legal concepts. The Christian and Muslim "inhabitants" of Palestine had the right to self-determination as did the inhabitants of the other former Turkish territories that came under the tutelage (not sovereignty) of the various Mandatories. These rights did not accrue to people living in Europe, regardless want a prior agreement stated.

Any prior agreements that ran contrary to the Covenant, as the Balfour Declaration were to have abrogated by signatories of the Covenant pursuant to article 20 of the Covenant, to wit:

"ARTICLE 20.
The Members of the League severally agree that this Covenant is accepted as abrogating all obligations or understandings inter se which are inconsistent with the terms thereof, and solemnly undertake that they will not hereafter enter into any engagements inconsistent with the terms thereof.

In case any Member of the League shall, before becoming a Member of the League, have undertaken any obligations inconsistent with the terms of this Covenant, it shall be the duty of such Member to take immediate steps to procure its release from such obligations.'

Israel is the child of power politics in contravention of legal concepts.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, you are trying to make decisions about how things occurred.

Who (and when) did the Jewish People take the Title and Rights from?

When did the Jews get title and rights?

Link?

(COMMENT - PLEASE PAY ATTENTION)

Just like there is such a thing as a "Cascade Failure," there is also a "Cascade Successes."

The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, underwent the "Tutelage" (which the Arab Palestinians declined) by the Mandatory.
The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, underwent the assisted "Step Preparatory for Independence" (which the Arab Palestinians declined) with the UN Palestine Commission.
The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, coordinated the establishment of a Provisional Government (which the Arab Palestinians did not do).
The Provisional State Council of the Provisional Government stated: "WE HEREBY DECLARE that as from the termination of the Mandate at midnight, this night of the 14th and 15th May, 1948,"

The Provision Government extended is absolute control over the Recommended Territory; establishing "Sovereignty." Absent objection by the UNPC (the successor government to the Mandatory), the State of Israel was created.
The integrity of the territorial sovereignty was successfully defended against foreign aggressors that breached their frontier --- creating an International Armed Conflict (IAC).
​

Done. The establishment elements necessary for the self-governing authority over the territory is the very definition of sovereignty.

Most Respectfully,
R​

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, you are trying to make decisions about how things occurred.

Who (and when) did the Jewish People take the Title and Rights from?

When did the Jews get title and rights?

Link?

(COMMENT - PLEASE PAY ATTENTION)

Just like there is such a thing as a "Cascade Failure," there is also a "Cascade Successes."

The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, underwent the "Tutelage" (which the Arab Palestinians declined) by the Mandatory.
The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, underwent the assisted "Step Preparatory for Independence" (which the Arab Palestinians declined) with the UN Palestine Commission.
The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, coordinated the establishment of a Provisional Government (which the Arab Palestinians did not do).
The Provisional State Council of the Provisional Government stated: "WE HEREBY DECLARE that as from the termination of the Mandate at midnight, this night of the 14th and 15th May, 1948,"

The Provision Government extended is absolute control over the Recommended Territory; establishing "Sovereignty." Absent objection by the UNPC (the successor government to the Mandatory), the State of Israel was created.
The integrity of the territorial sovereignty was successfully defended against foreign aggressors that breached their frontier --- creating an International Armed Conflict (IAC).
​

Done. The establishment elements necessary for the self-governing authority over the territory is the very definition of sovereignty.

Most Respectfully,
R​

And what does all that verbosity have to do with my post?

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Again, you are trying to make decisions about how things occurred.

Who (and when) did the Jewish People take the Title and Rights from?

When did the Jews get title and rights?

Link?

(COMMENT - PLEASE PAY ATTENTION)

Just like there is such a thing as a "Cascade Failure," there is also a "Cascade Successes."

The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, underwent the "Tutelage" (which the Arab Palestinians declined) by the Mandatory.
The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, underwent the assisted "Step Preparatory for Independence" (which the Arab Palestinians declined) with the UN Palestine Commission.
The Jewish Agency for the Jewish People, coordinated the establishment of a Provisional Government (which the Arab Palestinians did not do).
The Provisional State Council of the Provisional Government stated: "WE HEREBY DECLARE that as from the termination of the Mandate at midnight, this night of the 14th and 15th May, 1948,"

The Provision Government extended is absolute control over the Recommended Territory; establishing "Sovereignty." Absent objection by the UNPC (the successor government to the Mandatory), the State of Israel was created.
The integrity of the territorial sovereignty was successfully defended against foreign aggressors that breached their frontier --- creating an International Armed Conflict (IAC).
​

Done. The establishment elements necessary for the self-governing authority over the territory is the very definition of sovereignty.

Most Respectfully,
R​

Rocco is of the "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit" school.

The Christians and Muslims did not decline anything. The British declined to recognize the Palestinian leadership. The British failed to provide the tutelage mandated by the Mandate to the Christians and Muslims and elected to provide tutelage only to the Jews, whose leadership the British recognized. Quit bullshitting Rocco, we see through your bullshit.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Go back to the drawing board.

How do the people exercise sovereignty.

You do have a problem understanding popular sovereignty.

Recognizing
that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,

Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237​

(COMMENT)

The Jewish State of Israel extends it absolute control of territory that creates it border of sovereignty. It is actually a physical thing. It is a perimeter that is protected on the interior side by the Israel Defense Force.

Just like the Arab Palestinian has the RIGHT to have a million dollars (less taxation); no one is just going to run up and give the Arab Palestinian that million dollars. The RIGHT to self-determination independence and sovereignty is no different...

External Interference: Arab League forces launching coordinated attacks against Israel.
National Independence: By declaration in 1988.
Sovereignty: Gaza Strip and Area "A" of the West Bank (possibly).

Nothing was denied the Arab Palestinian.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

It answers the question.

And what does all that verbosity have to do with my post?

(COMMENT)

It is the path that brought us to the ground truth of today.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

Go back to the drawing board.

How do the people exercise sovereignty.

You do have a problem understanding popular sovereignty.

Recognizing
that the Palestinian people is entitled to self-determination in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations,

Expressing its grave concern that the Palestinian people has been prevented from enjoying its inalienable rights, in particular its right to self-determination,

Guided by the purposes and principles of the Charter,

Recalling its relevant resolutions which affirm the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination,

1. Reaffirms the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people in Palestine, including:

(a) The right to self-determination without external interference;

(b) The right to national independence and sovereignty;

UN General Assembly Resolution 3236 and UN General Assembly Resolution 3237​

(COMMENT)

The Jewish State of Israel extends it absolute control of territory that creates it border of sovereignty. It is actually a physical thing. It is a perimeter that is protected on the interior side by the Israel Defense Force.

Just like the Arab Palestinian has the RIGHT to have a million dollars (less taxation); no one is just going to run up and give the Arab Palestinian that million dollars. The RIGHT to self-determination independence and sovereignty is no different...

External Interference: Arab League forces launching coordinated attacks against Israel.
National Independence: By declaration in 1988.
Sovereignty: Gaza Strip and Area "A" of the West Bank (possibly).

Nothing was denied the Arab Palestinian.

Most Respectfully,
R

Everything was denied the Christians and Muslims of Palestine.

1. Tutelage, including the protection of the borders of Palestine from external interference, i.e. the mass transfer of a foreign population into the land inhabited by the Christian and Muslim natives was not only not prevented, it was encouraged.
2. Constitution- The British withheld the right to a secular and democratic constitution from the Christians and Muslim inhabitants of Palestine.
3. Self-determination- One third of the Christian and Muslim population was separated from the rest of the native inhabitants, that with the Bedouin made up a non-Jewish majority, to be ruled in perpetuity by Jews that created a Jewish state notwithstanding a non-Jewish majority, prior to the expulsion of the non-Jews.

The Arab League, like internatinal organizations often do, intervened to prevent the mass murder and ethnic cleansing of the non-Jews by the Jews. Recently declassified British intelligence reports confirm this fact, Mr. Propaganda.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory where not a party to or an author of, the intent or implementation of the Mandate;

In contravention of Article 22 of the LoN Covenant.

 

[P F Tinmore]

External Interference: Arab League forces launching coordinated attacks against Israel.

Unsubstantiated Israeli talking point.

 

[P F Tinmore]

The Jewish State of Israel extends it absolute control of territory

Indeed, their belligerent occupation of Palestinian land.

 

[Hollie]

The Jewish State of Israel extends it absolute control of territory

Indeed, their belligerent occupation of Palestinian land.

Indeed, the Jewish people were able to establish sovereignty and self-determination while the Arab-Moslem squatters could not.

 

[montelatici]

The Christians and Muslims you mean. But they were prevented from establishing sovereignty and exercising their right to self-determination by the British, while the invading Jews from Europe were assisted by the British, the U.S. and others.

 

[Hollie]

The Christians and Muslims you mean. But they were prevented from establishing sovereignty and exercising their right to self-determination by the British, while the invading Jews from Europe were assisted by the British, the U.S. and others.

Actually no. The Arab-Moslem squatters did not possess the skills or abilities to establish self-determination.

Why have many others been able to determine their futures without the cheap excuses you need to account for ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Arab-Moslem squatters?

 

[Shusha]

NO, I don't see a problem. No, the Israelis don't see a problem.

Of course the thieves do not see a problem.

No, wait. Go back to what you asked. You stated Arab Palestinians want self-determination. You stated the Jewish people want self-determination. And you wanted to know if that was a problem.

Its a big enough sandbox for everyone. Everyone is already there in the sandbox. Give me one good reason why the sandbox can NOT be divided.

Don't give me a narrative -- give me a reason.

 

[Shusha]

No, the problem is the Jews have never considered the possibility of two sandboxes, and never will. The Zionists always intended to remove the non-Jews from all of Palestine.

Monte, methinks you doth project too much.

Israel has never intended to remove non-Jews from Israel or Palestine. Evidence is simple enough. Arabs still live in both those areas. (Jews have been ethnically cleansed from all the surrounding ME nations).

 

[montelatici]

The Christians and Muslims you mean. But they were prevented from establishing sovereignty and exercising their right to self-determination by the British, while the invading Jews from Europe were assisted by the British, the U.S. and others.

Actually no. The Arab-Moslem squatters did not possess the skills or abilities to establish self-determination.

Why have many others been able to determine their futures without the cheap excuses you need to account for ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Arab-Moslem squatters?

Honey, the squatters are the Jews that went to Palestine from Europe. They lived on another continent. The Christians and Muslims lived in Palestine they were the native inhabitants. Try to understand that complex, for you, dynamic.

Let's see if you can understand this statement to the Palestinian Delegation from the British Colonial Office in response to the Palestinian's request to allow them to exercise their self-determination and sovereignty through the constitution the Christians and Muslims drafted and agreed to. I know it's complicated for you dear, but give it a shot.

"the position is that His Majesty's Government are bound by a pledge which is antecedent to the Covenant of the League of Nations, and they cannot allow a constitutional position to develop in a country for which they have accepted responsibility to the Principal Allied Powers, which may make it impracticable to carry into effect a solemn undertaking given by themselves and their Allies..."

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

 

[Hollie]

The Christians and Muslims you mean. But they were prevented from establishing sovereignty and exercising their right to self-determination by the British, while the invading Jews from Europe were assisted by the British, the U.S. and others.

Actually no. The Arab-Moslem squatters did not possess the skills or abilities to establish self-determination.

Why have many others been able to determine their futures without the cheap excuses you need to account for ineptitude and incompetence on the part of Arab-Moslem squatters?

Honey, the squatters are the Jews that went to Palestine from Europe. They lived on another continent. The Christians and Muslims lived in Palestine they were the native inhabitants. Try to understand that complex, for you, dynamic.

Let's see if you can understand this statement to the Palestinian Delegation from the British Colonial Office in response to the Palestinian's request to allow them to exercise their self-determination and sovereignty through the constitution the Christians and Muslims drafted and agreed to. I know it's complicated for you dear, but give it a shot.

"the position is that His Majesty's Government are bound by a pledge which is antecedent to the Covenant of the League of Nations, and they cannot allow a constitutional position to develop in a country for which they have accepted responsibility to the Principal Allied Powers, which may make it impracticable to carry into effect a solemn undertaking given by themselves and their Allies..."

UK correspondence with Palestine Arab Delegation and Zionist Organization/British policy in Palestine: "Churchill White Paper" - UK documentation Cmd. 1700/Non-UN document (excerpts) (1 July 1922)

Yes, yes. That is the same cut and paste article you dump into many threads.

If you were to acquaint yourself with the history of the former Turkish holding, research the treaties and actions of the Brits who were in charge of the mandate, you might be able to write a bit more intelligently vs. mindlessly cutting and pasting the same articles.