Israel's Legal Right To Exist

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

OK, just a couple minor corrections here.

Nothing in the Covenant requires the Allied Powers to acquiesce in favor of the Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory.

After the Treaty of Lausanne Palestine was no longer enemy territory. It was a successor state.

Different set of rules.

(COMMENT)

• In April 1920, San Remo Agreement: The terms of the mandates in respect of the above territories will be formulated by the Principal Allied Powers and submitted to the Council of the League of Nations for approval.

"Turkey hereby undertakes, in accordance with the provisions of Article [132 of the Treaty of Sevres] to accept any decisions which may be taken in this connection."
​

• The EOTA transitioned to a Civil Administration in July 1920.

• With the Treaty of Sevres in August 1920.

• Actually, there was no actual Successor State, because there was no original state corresponding to Palestine. The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. It became the "territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Palestine Order in Council

Why does it need to be divided?

You asked the question. The Arab Palestinians want self-determination. The Jewish people want self-determination. If we divide it then they can both have it.

Now, is there a reason why it can't be divided?

That would violate the Palestinian's right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

No where, after the Ottoman Surrender at Mudros (1918) and prior to the Treaty of Lausanne (1924), do the Arab Palestinians achieve supreme authority or sovereignty; with the exception of Trans-jordan.

The "Right of Territorial Integrity" can not be exercised is the people do not have a territory they have control over (sovereignty). That is not to say that the right is not available, it just cannot be applied.

You have the "Right to Wash Your Car."
Except, you don't own a car.
No one is going to give you a car
just because you have a Right to Wash your Car.​

Having the "Right to Territorial Integrity" is meaningless if there is no territory to maintain the integrity over.

Most Respectfully,
R

Pfffft, you are grasping at straws. Only Israeli propaganda says that there was no Palestine.

 

[montelatici]

P F Tinmore, et al,

OK, just a couple minor corrections here.

Nothing in the Covenant requires the Allied Powers to acquiesce in favor of the Arab Population of the Enemy Occupied Territory.

After the Treaty of Lausanne Palestine was no longer enemy territory. It was a successor state.

Different set of rules.

(COMMENT)

• In April 1920, San Remo Agreement: The terms of the mandates in respect of the above territories will be formulated by the Principal Allied Powers and submitted to the Council of the League of Nations for approval.

"Turkey hereby undertakes, in accordance with the provisions of Article [132 of the Treaty of Sevres] to accept any decisions which may be taken in this connection."
​

• The EOTA transitioned to a Civil Administration in July 1920.

• With the Treaty of Sevres in August 1920.

• Actually, there was no actual Successor State, because there was no original state corresponding to Palestine. The High Contracting Parties agree to entrust, by application of the provisions of Article 22, the administration of Palestine, within such boundaries as may be determined by the Principal Allied Powers, to a Mandatory to be selected by the said Powers. It became the "territories to which the Mandate for Palestine applies, hereinafter described as Palestine." Palestine Order in Council

Why does it need to be divided?

You asked the question. The Arab Palestinians want self-determination. The Jewish people want self-determination. If we divide it then they can both have it.

Now, is there a reason why it can't be divided?

That would violate the Palestinian's right to territorial integrity.

(COMMENT)

No where, after the Ottoman Surrender at Mudros (1918) and prior to the Treaty of Lausanne (1924), do the Arab Palestinians achieve supreme authority or sovereignty; with the exception of Trans-jordan.

The "Right of Territorial Integrity" can not be exercised is the people do not have a territory they have control over (sovereignty). That is not to say that the right is not available, it just cannot be applied.

You have the "Right to Wash Your Car."
Except, you don't own a car.
No one is going to give you a car
just because you have a Right to Wash your Car.​

Having the "Right to Territorial Integrity" is meaningless if there is no territory to maintain the integrity over.

Most Respectfully,
R

W.C. Fields had your number Rocco. "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull." That's your debating technique. But it doesn't impress those far more clever than you.

Your post is not relevant nor accurate. It's just your usual nonsense as neither the inhabitants of any other former Turkish territory (or Jews who were in Europe) had sovereignty over any of the former Turkish territories.

Mentioning the Treaty of Sevres, however, which in Article 95 specifically applies Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations to Palestine, is called "hoisting oneself on one's own petard".

Let's review what Article 22 states in part:

"ARTICLE 22.
To those colonies and territories which as a consequence of the late war have ceased to be under the sovereignty of the States which formerly governed them and which are inhabited by peoples not yet able to stand by themselves under the strenuous conditions of the modern world, there should be applied the principle that the well-being and development of such peoples form a sacred trust of civilisation and that securities for the performance of this trust should be embodied in this Covenant.

The best method of giving practical effect to this principle is that the tutelage of such peoples should be entrusted to advanced nations who by reason of their resources, their experience or their geographical position can best undertake this responsibility, and who are willing to accept it, and that this tutelage should be exercised by them as Mandatories on behalf of the League."

Stop the bullshitting Rocco.

 

[Shusha]

What you can't do, is take an action against the wishes of a people that causes said people to lose the ability to exercise their right to self-determination.

Arab Palestinian people have not lost their right to self-determination. They have that right to this very day. Its an inherent and inviolable right.

Nor has their ability to exercise that right been removed from them. They have that right to this very day.

I just wish they would hurry up and get on with it.

 

[montelatici]

Without a military success against a far more powerful occupying force, the Palestinians have no way to exercise their right to self-determination.

 

[Shusha]

Without a military success against a far more powerful occupying force, the Palestinians have no way to exercise their right to self-determination.

Only because, like Tinmore, you can only see Arab Palestinians self-determination as the absence of Jewish self-determination. You are looking for a zero sum game. Instead of sharing the sandbox.

The Arab Palestinians don't need a military victory. They need economic development, trade agreements, water management plans, education, technological development and a functional government.

 

[montelatici]

The Israeli Jews have no intention to permit the non-Jews to establish a sovereign state. Their actions and now formal statements make that clear.

 

[Hollie]

Without a military success against a far more powerful occupying force, the Palestinians have no way to exercise their right to self-determination.

I wouldn't necessarily wait for a military success achieved by your Islamic terrorist heroes. Neighboring Arab states have no interest in waging a war with Israel. And more to the point, neighboring Arab states have little interest in Pal'istanians.

What a shame that the Islamic terrorist Pal'istanians have made every effort to avoid taking the steps required to build a functioning society and instead have chosen failure and incompetence over success and a better future.

 

[Hollie]

The Israeli Jews have no intention to permit the non-Jews to establish a sovereign state. Their actions and now formal statements make that clear.

How cute. Conspiracy theories.

 

[MJB12741]

The Israeli Jews have no intention to permit the non-Jews to establish a sovereign state. Their actions and now formal statements make that clear.

Israel met the Palestinian demand for a Jew free Gaza. And Israel got rocket missiles from Gaza for a thank you. Hey I have an idea. Let's have Israel also give the Palestinians all of the West Bank & all of Jerusalem for a lasting peace. Right Monte?

 

[Hollie]

The Israeli Jews have no intention to permit the non-Jews to establish a sovereign state. Their actions and now formal statements make that clear.

Israel met the Palestinian demand for a Jew free Gaza. And Israel got rocket missiles from Gaza for a thank you. Hey I have an idea. Let's have Israel also give the Palestinians all of the West Bank & all of Jerusalem for a lasting peace. Right Monte?

Maybe it's time to resurrect the "peace partner" slogan.

“Slice open the enemy’s chest - slice it!” - Fatah song on PA TV - PMW Bulletins

Fatah: “Slice open the enemy’s chest - slice it!”

Song on PA TV broadcast 11 times
during Seventh Fatah Conference


Or, maybe not.

 

[Shusha]

Hey, now, if we interfere with Arab Palestinian's right to kill Jews we are preventing their self-determination.

 

[montelatici]

The ability for the Muslims and Christians to exercise their self-determination and independence as a national state was stunted in 1920 by the British who elected to observe the Balfour Declaration rather than the articles of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Why anyone thinks that it is possible for the Muslims and the few Christians that haven't joined the Diaspora to achieve it now is beyond me. It's not going to happen, the Jews will not allow it.

 

[Hollie]

The ability for the Muslims and Christians to exercise their self-determination and independence as a national state was stunted in 1920 by the British who elected to observe the Balfour Declaration rather than the articles of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Why anyone thinks that it is possible for the Muslims and the few Christians that haven't joined the Diaspora to achieve it now is beyond me. It's not going to happen, the Jews will not allow it.

I certainly agree that "stunted" has defined the ability of the Arabs-Moslems to achieve self-determination and a functioning society. However, your description of "stunted" can aptly be assigned to the majority of Arab-Moslem societies which ultimately are train wrecks of social justice, women's rights and all of the values that separate western democracies from Islamist dystopias.

For all the Pom Pom flailing you do for Islamism and your Islamist paradises, it's quite apparent that you're going to remain safely ensconced in the Great Satan.

 

[montelatici]

The ability for the Muslims and Christians to exercise their self-determination and independence as a national state was stunted in 1920 by the British who elected to observe the Balfour Declaration rather than the articles of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Why anyone thinks that it is possible for the Muslims and the few Christians that haven't joined the Diaspora to achieve it now is beyond me. It's not going to happen, the Jews will not allow it.

I certainly agree that "stunted" has defined the ability of the Arabs-Moslems to achieve self-determination and a functioning society. However, your description of "stunted" can aptly be assigned to the majority of Arab-Moslem societies which ultimately are train wrecks of social justice, women's rights and all of the values that separate western democracies from Islamist dystopias.

For all the Pom Pom flailing you do for Islamism and your Islamist paradises, it's quite apparent that you're going to remain safely ensconced in the Great Satan.

But the Palestinians were Christians as well as Muslims. I only present facts and do not participate in cheer leading as you do. I'm a Christian, Extremist Islam and extremist Judaism are both disgusting sects to me.

 

[MJB12741]

The ability for the Muslims and Christians to exercise their self-determination and independence as a national state was stunted in 1920 by the British who elected to observe the Balfour Declaration rather than the articles of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Why anyone thinks that it is possible for the Muslims and the few Christians that haven't joined the Diaspora to achieve it now is beyond me. It's not going to happen, the Jews will not allow it.

I certainly agree that "stunted" has defined the ability of the Arabs-Moslems to achieve self-determination and a functioning society. However, your description of "stunted" can aptly be assigned to the majority of Arab-Moslem societies which ultimately are train wrecks of social justice, women's rights and all of the values that separate western democracies from Islamist dystopias.

For all the Pom Pom flailing you do for Islamism and your Islamist paradises, it's quite apparent that you're going to remain safely ensconced in the Great Satan.

But the Palestinians were Christians as well as Muslims. I only present facts and do not participate in cheer leading as you do. I'm a Christian, Extremist Islam and extremist Judaism are both disgusting sects to me.

How do ya like that? And here I actually believed native or indigenous Palestinians --- WERE JEWS. Amazing what we can learn from Monte.

 

[montelatici]

The ability for the Muslims and Christians to exercise their self-determination and independence as a national state was stunted in 1920 by the British who elected to observe the Balfour Declaration rather than the articles of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Why anyone thinks that it is possible for the Muslims and the few Christians that haven't joined the Diaspora to achieve it now is beyond me. It's not going to happen, the Jews will not allow it.

I certainly agree that "stunted" has defined the ability of the Arabs-Moslems to achieve self-determination and a functioning society. However, your description of "stunted" can aptly be assigned to the majority of Arab-Moslem societies which ultimately are train wrecks of social justice, women's rights and all of the values that separate western democracies from Islamist dystopias.

For all the Pom Pom flailing you do for Islamism and your Islamist paradises, it's quite apparent that you're going to remain safely ensconced in the Great Satan.

But the Palestinians were Christians as well as Muslims. I only present facts and do not participate in cheer leading as you do. I'm a Christian, Extremist Islam and extremist Judaism are both disgusting sects to me.

How do ya like that? And here I actually believed native or indigenous Palestinians --- WERE JEWS. Amazing what we can learn from Monte.

Well you also thought that Archbishops were Muslims. And, you are wrong about this too. The indigenous and native people of Palestine were the ones that lived there before the Jewish invasion from Europe, and the vast majority practiced the Muslim and Christian religions. As confirmed below.

"30 July 1921

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.


AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine.

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/349B02280A930813052565E90048ED1C

 

[MJB12741]

The ability for the Muslims and Christians to exercise their self-determination and independence as a national state was stunted in 1920 by the British who elected to observe the Balfour Declaration rather than the articles of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Why anyone thinks that it is possible for the Muslims and the few Christians that haven't joined the Diaspora to achieve it now is beyond me. It's not going to happen, the Jews will not allow it.

I certainly agree that "stunted" has defined the ability of the Arabs-Moslems to achieve self-determination and a functioning society. However, your description of "stunted" can aptly be assigned to the majority of Arab-Moslem societies which ultimately are train wrecks of social justice, women's rights and all of the values that separate western democracies from Islamist dystopias.

For all the Pom Pom flailing you do for Islamism and your Islamist paradises, it's quite apparent that you're going to remain safely ensconced in the Great Satan.

But the Palestinians were Christians as well as Muslims. I only present facts and do not participate in cheer leading as you do. I'm a Christian, Extremist Islam and extremist Judaism are both disgusting sects to me.

How do ya like that? And here I actually believed native or indigenous Palestinians --- WERE JEWS. Amazing what we can learn from Monte.

Well you also thought that Archbishops were Muslims. And, you are wrong about this too. The indigenous and native people of Palestine were the ones that lived there before the Jewish invasion from Europe, and the vast majority practiced the Muslim and Christian religions. As confirmed below.

"30 July 1921

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.


AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine.

https://unispal.un.org/DPA/DPR/unispal.nsf/0/349B02280A930813052565E90048ED1C

Archbishops are Muslims??? I didn't know that.

 

[montelatici]

The ability for the Muslims and Christians to exercise their self-determination and independence as a national state was stunted in 1920 by the British who elected to observe the Balfour Declaration rather than the articles of the Covenant of the League of Nations. Why anyone thinks that it is possible for the Muslims and the few Christians that haven't joined the Diaspora to achieve it now is beyond me. It's not going to happen, the Jews will not allow it.

I certainly agree that "stunted" has defined the ability of the Arabs-Moslems to achieve self-determination and a functioning society. However, your description of "stunted" can aptly be assigned to the majority of Arab-Moslem societies which ultimately are train wrecks of social justice, women's rights and all of the values that separate western democracies from Islamist dystopias.

For all the Pom Pom flailing you do for Islamism and your Islamist paradises, it's quite apparent that you're going to remain safely ensconced in the Great Satan.

But the Palestinians were Christians as well as Muslims. I only present facts and do not participate in cheer leading as you do. I'm a Christian, Extremist Islam and extremist Judaism are both disgusting sects to me.

How do ya like that? And here I actually believed native or indigenous Palestinians --- WERE JEWS. Amazing what we can learn from Monte.

Well you also thought that Archbishops were Muslims. And, you are wrong about this too. The indigenous and native people of Palestine were the ones that lived there before the Jewish invasion from Europe, and the vast majority practiced the Muslim and Christian religions. As confirmed below.

"30 July 1921

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.


AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine.

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

Archbishops are Muslims??? I didn't know that.

Why do you keep doing this. Is it not humiliating when I post the link to thread you started that demonstrates you believd a Muslim Archbishop was fired by a Christian. Well here is the link again. You know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.


Palestinian Archbishop Fired by Greek Orthodox Christians

 

[MJB12741]

I certainly agree that "stunted" has defined the ability of the Arabs-Moslems to achieve self-determination and a functioning society. However, your description of "stunted" can aptly be assigned to the majority of Arab-Moslem societies which ultimately are train wrecks of social justice, women's rights and all of the values that separate western democracies from Islamist dystopias.

For all the Pom Pom flailing you do for Islamism and your Islamist paradises, it's quite apparent that you're going to remain safely ensconced in the Great Satan.

But the Palestinians were Christians as well as Muslims. I only present facts and do not participate in cheer leading as you do. I'm a Christian, Extremist Islam and extremist Judaism are both disgusting sects to me.

How do ya like that? And here I actually believed native or indigenous Palestinians --- WERE JEWS. Amazing what we can learn from Monte.

Well you also thought that Archbishops were Muslims. And, you are wrong about this too. The indigenous and native people of Palestine were the ones that lived there before the Jewish invasion from Europe, and the vast majority practiced the Muslim and Christian religions. As confirmed below.

"30 July 1921

AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF

PALESTINE,

during the period
1st JULY, 1920--30th JUNE, 1921.


AN INTERIM REPORT
ON THE
CIVIL ADMINISTRATION
OF
PALESTINE.

I.--THE CONDITION OF PALESTINE AFTER THE WAR.

There are now in the whole of Palestine hardly 700,000 people, a population much less than that of the province of Gallilee alone in the time of Christ.* (*See Sir George Adam Smith "Historical Geography of the Holy Land", Chap. 20.) Of these 235,000 live in the larger towns, 465,000 in the smaller towns and villages. Four-fifths of the whole population are Moslems. A small proportion of these are Bedouin Arabs; the remainder, although they speak Arabic and are termed Arabs, are largely of mixed race. Some 77,000 of the population are Christians, in large majority belonging to the Orthodox Church, and speaking Arabic. The minority are members of the Latin or of the Uniate Greek Catholic Church, or--a small number--are Protestants.

The Jewish element of the population numbers 76,000. Almost all have entered Palestine during the last 40 years. Prior to 1850 there were in the country only a handful of Jews. In the following 30 years a few hundreds came to Palestine.

Mandate for Palestine - Interim report of the Mandatory to the League of Nations/Balfour Declaration text (30 July 1921)

Archbishops are Muslims??? I didn't know that.

Why do you keep doing this. Is it not humiliating when I post the link to thread you started that demonstrates you believd a Muslim Archbishop was fired by a Christian. Well here is the link again. You know the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.


Palestinian Archbishop Fired by Greek Orthodox Christians

This is fun. How many times must I tell you a Muslim a Muslim cannot be an archbishop. But a Palestinian can be.

 

[montelatici]

Well, it took quite a while for you to understand that a Muslim archbishop wasn't fired by the Greek Orthodox Church. See your comment below.

"Greek Orthodox Church In Jerusalem Fires Palestinian Archbishop"

Greek Orthodox Church In Jerusalem Fires Palestinian Archbishop

MJB Comments: "It is truly sad that Muslim Palestinians cannot even get along with fellow Christian Palestinians."

As in everything else, the local Zionist propagandists would have us believe that MJB's comment did not imply that MJB thought a Muslim Archbishop was fired by the Greek Orthodox Church. It's the same technique they use for every fact about the IP conflict, deny, deny, deny in a fantastic display of cognizant dissonance.

Link to MJB's thread starter:

Palestinian Archbishop Fired by Greek Orthodox Christians