Israel's "Right to Exist"?

[irosie91]

The only EXTANT people who have a connection to NABLUS aka NEOPOLIS aka SHECHEM are the SAMARITANS sorry----they are not arabs and they stopped living in nablus decades ago sorry saigon

 

[ima]

You are projecting again, Boy.
It is clear you have no connection to and precious little understanding of the conflict and the issues involved but come here just to vent your hateful spleen.
I'm surprised your head doesn't explode.

I think Loin is quite correct here - a very key point in extremist positions supporting
Israel is the desire not to understand Palestinian history or legitimacy.

We also see a lot of what I could call hate speech posted here against Muslims in general, and it is this urge to denigrate and dehumanize Palestinians and Muslims which preclude any possible understanding of the history.

If people do not understand why Palestinians feel Nalbus is "theirs" after 2,500 years of living there, I suggest that they are not trying terribly hard to understand it.

There is not a shred of evidence that any of the arabs living in Nablus have a connection to that city for "2500 years" In fact 2500 years ago the city was not named NABLUS and was not even NEOPOLIS which the romans who refurbished it and rebuilt it LATER NAMED IT Those romans spoke LATIN not arabic are there romans living in nablus now? Nablus was stolen from the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE when the dogs or arabia invaded My guess is that the christians living there at the time LEFT The original name of nablus---before the romans took it was SHECHEM It is probably true that jews did not live in Shechem lately There is nothing about shechem that is particularly historically attractive to jews other than the fact that it is a biblical city----it certainly is not an "ARAB CITY" until quite recently after arabs invaded. Even when jews were scattered around living in virtual hiding from the "HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE" people I doubt that they went to shechem, neopolis, nablus but I am not sure

I think the Jewish god must not be as strong as the other ones, He keeps dropping them right in the middle of hell. What's up with that? Do you think that their own god could cut them a break?

 

[irosie91]

I think Loin is quite correct here - a very key point in extremist positions supporting
Israel is the desire not to understand Palestinian history or legitimacy.

We also see a lot of what I could call hate speech posted here against Muslims in general, and it is this urge to denigrate and dehumanize Palestinians and Muslims which preclude any possible understanding of the history.

If people do not understand why Palestinians feel Nalbus is "theirs" after 2,500 years of living there, I suggest that they are not trying terribly hard to understand it.

There is not a shred of evidence that any of the arabs living in Nablus have a connection to that city for "2500 years" In fact 2500 years ago the city was not named NABLUS and was not even NEOPOLIS which the romans who refurbished it and rebuilt it LATER NAMED IT Those romans spoke LATIN not arabic are there romans living in nablus now? Nablus was stolen from the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE when the dogs or arabia invaded My guess is that the christians living there at the time LEFT The original name of nablus---before the romans took it was SHECHEM It is probably true that jews did not live in Shechem lately There is nothing about shechem that is particularly historically attractive to jews other than the fact that it is a biblical city----it certainly is not an "ARAB CITY" until quite recently after arabs invaded. Even when jews were scattered around living in virtual hiding from the "HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE" people I doubt that they went to shechem, neopolis, nablus but I am not sure

I think the Jewish god must not be as strong as the other ones, He keeps dropping them right in the middle of hell. What's up with that? Do you think that their own god could cut them a break?

you touch on an issue that interests those of us who have brains In islamic theology --ALLAH is far more IN CONTROL OF ALL EVENTS than is G-d in jewish theology In fact if you someday learn how to read ----you might read the first book of the bible. It very clearly rejects the concept of PREDESTINATION and embraces the concept of MAN's FREE WILL blaming war on G-d does not actually work as well in Judaism as it does in Islam
It is true that some jews tend to a more fatalistic approach----but to me they are not taking the first five books to wit THE TORAH at its word The books CLEARLY state that MAN DECIDES a nice poetic example of the MAN DECIDES idea is the fact that the "RIGHT OF THE FIRST BORN" a kind of religious custom thruout the world is so frequently discarded by the leaders Abraham discards it, Isaac (with the interference of his wife) discards it and Jacob (aka Israel) --discards it King Saul is not a first born and Neither is David and Neither is Solomon For those days doing away with the FATED right of the first born was very innovative-----even the British royalty cannot get away from it-------Elizabeth is afraid to die-------because of it in any case doing it back then was a rejection of FATE and PRE-DESTINATION As to a "weak" G-d----it seems as if he VOLUNTARILY gave up the right to impose destiny and gave it up to Man--(and woman, of course) can't blame HIM that the romans were -----uhm---born on the wrong side of the mattress

 

[Saigon]

The only EXTANT people who have a connection to NABLUS aka NEOPOLIS aka SHECHEM are the SAMARITANS sorry----they are not arabs and they stopped living in nablus decades ago sorry saigon

Census information, 1850.

Nablus:
Jewish familes 14
Muslim 1,356

Nablus Countryside:
Jewish: 0
Muslim: 13,022

Demographics of Palestine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


And yes, those people are very definitely Arabs.

 

[Hossfly]

the only extant people who have a connection to nablus aka neopolis aka shechem are the samaritans sorry----they are not arabs and they stopped living in nablus decades ago sorry saigon

census information, 1850.

Nablus:
Jewish familes 14
muslim 1,356

nablus countryside:
Jewish: 0
muslim: 13,022

demographics of palestine - wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


and yes, those people are very definitely arabs.

bfd

 

[ima]

There is not a shred of evidence that any of the arabs living in Nablus have a connection to that city for "2500 years" In fact 2500 years ago the city was not named NABLUS and was not even NEOPOLIS which the romans who refurbished it and rebuilt it LATER NAMED IT Those romans spoke LATIN not arabic are there romans living in nablus now? Nablus was stolen from the HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE when the dogs or arabia invaded My guess is that the christians living there at the time LEFT The original name of nablus---before the romans took it was SHECHEM It is probably true that jews did not live in Shechem lately There is nothing about shechem that is particularly historically attractive to jews other than the fact that it is a biblical city----it certainly is not an "ARAB CITY" until quite recently after arabs invaded. Even when jews were scattered around living in virtual hiding from the "HOLY ROMAN EMPIRE" people I doubt that they went to shechem, neopolis, nablus but I am not sure

I think the Jewish god must not be as strong as the other ones, He keeps dropping them right in the middle of hell. What's up with that? Do you think that their own god could cut them a break?

you touch on an issue that interests those of us who have brains In islamic theology --ALLAH is far more IN CONTROL OF ALL EVENTS than is G-d in jewish theology In fact if you someday learn how to read ----you might read the first book of the bible. It very clearly rejects the concept of PREDESTINATION and embraces the concept of MAN's FREE WILL blaming war on G-d does not actually work as well in Judaism as it does in Islam
It is true that some jews tend to a more fatalistic approach----but to me they are not taking the first five books to wit THE TORAH at its word The books CLEARLY state that MAN DECIDES a nice poetic example of the MAN DECIDES idea is the fact that the "RIGHT OF THE FIRST BORN" a kind of religious custom thruout the world is so frequently discarded by the leaders Abraham discards it, Isaac (with the interference of his wife) discards it and Jacob (aka Israel) --discards it King Saul is not a first born and Neither is David and Neither is Solomon For those days doing away with the FATED right of the first born was very innovative-----even the British royalty cannot get away from it-------Elizabeth is afraid to die-------because of it in any case doing it back then was a rejection of FATE and PRE-DESTINATION As to a "weak" G-d----it seems as if he VOLUNTARILY gave up the right to impose destiny and gave it up to Man--(and woman, of course) can't blame HIM that the romans were -----uhm---born on the wrong side of the mattress

But if your own god hates you and keep putting you in situation where you could get wiped out, why should anyone else like you folks?

 

[irosie91]

I think the Jewish god must not be as strong as the other ones, He keeps dropping them right in the middle of hell. What's up with that? Do you think that their own god could cut them a break?

you touch on an issue that interests those of us who have brains In islamic theology --ALLAH is far more IN CONTROL OF ALL EVENTS than is G-d in jewish theology In fact if you someday learn how to read ----you might read the first book of the bible. It very clearly rejects the concept of PREDESTINATION and embraces the concept of MAN's FREE WILL blaming war on G-d does not actually work as well in Judaism as it does in Islam
It is true that some jews tend to a more fatalistic approach----but to me they are not taking the first five books to wit THE TORAH at its word The books CLEARLY state that MAN DECIDES
a nice poetic example of the MAN DECIDES idea is the fact that the "RIGHT OF THE FIRST BORN" a kind of religious custom thruout the world is so frequently discarded by the leaders Abraham discards it, Isaac (with the interference of his wife) discards it and Jacob (aka Israel) --discards it King Saul is not a first born and Neither is David and Neither is Solomon For those days doing away with the FATED right of the first born was very innovative-----even the British royalty cannot get away from it-------Elizabeth is afraid to die-------because of it in any case doing it back then was a rejection of FATE and PRE-DESTINATION As to a "weak" G-d----it seems as if he VOLUNTARILY gave up the right to impose destiny and gave it up to Man--(and woman, of course) can't blame HIM that the romans were -----uhm---born on the wrong side of the mattress

But if your own god hates you and keep putting you in situation where you could get wiped out, why should anyone else like you folks?

The prognosis for your recovery from the KLUVER BUCY status is hopeless
You will be spending the rest of your live snarling and flinging bits of
feces at the bars of your cage

 

[georgephillip]

Actually, Israel should have been formed 20 odd years earlier as the British Mandate called for a Jewish State and a "Palistinian" state. Trans Jordan was created to be the parent nation of the Palestinian State.

Actually, all citizens of voting age in 1948 Mandate Palestine should have decided their fates at the ballot box. Instead, one-third of the citizens inflicted a Jewish State by force of arms upon the majority.
This was done largely to facilitate western control of Arab oil resources and stimulate arms sales, primarily in the US and UK.

You seem to be admitting that in 1948 we acted in what we saw to be our best interests while simultaneously complaining that we did so.

Define "our best interests" if you can.

Specifically, how was it in the "best interests" of 90% of Americans in the 1950s to control the allocation of Arab oil to much of the rest of the world, i.e., what George Kenan and other US planners referred to as the Grand Area?

"From 1939 to 1945, extensive studies were conducted by the Council on Foreign Relations and the State Department. One group was called the War-Peace Studies Group, which met for six years and produced extensive geopolitical analyses and plans. The Council on Foreign Relations is essentially the business input to foreign policy plainning. These groups also involved every top planner in the State Department, with the exception of the Secretary of State.

"The conception that they developed is what they called 'Grand Area' planning.

"The Grand Area was a region that was to be subordinated to the needs of the American economy. As one planner put it, it was to be the region that is 'strategically necessary for world control.'

"The geopolitical analysis held that the Grand Area had to include at least the Western Hemisphere, the Far East, and the former British Empire, which we were then in the process of dismantling and taking over ourselves.

"This is what is called 'anti-imperialism' in American scholariship. The Grand Area was also to include western and southern Europe and the oil-producing regions of the Middle East; in fact, it was to include everything, if that were possible.

"Detailed plans were laid for particular regions of the Grand Area and also for international institutions that were to organize and police it, essentially in the interests of this subordination to U.S. domestic needs."

American Foreign Policy, by Noam Chomsky (Talk delivered at Harvard University)

 

[irosie91]

If the partition of Sudan had been put to a vote as georgie suggests ----then by now there would be another million rapes ----scores more children enslaved and at least another million southern sudanese dead in the mud to georgie's delight

the assassination of his hero OSAMA should have been put to a vote in islamabad-----what right did we have to INFLICT an assassination on pakistan?

 

[Saigon]

If the partition of Sudan had been put to a vote

It was put to a vote.

The people of South Sudan voted to become an independent country in 2011.

 

[irosie91]

If the partition of Sudan had been put to a vote

It was put to a vote.

The people of South Sudan voted to become an independent country in 2011.

right and KHARTOUM did not vote If the jews of the middle east had voted on the issue regarding the establishment of Israel in 1948----the vote would have been IN FAVOR EAST AND WEST pakistan were once ONE COUNTRY-----if the entire country had voted on partition-----in 1971-----Bangla desh would not exist

your sophistry regarding the issue of DISTRIBUTION of populations is somthing like gerrymandering-------it is oldest trick in the cynical book of sociopathic manipulator imperialist pigs In the USA its most interesting history involves the issue of the struggle to maintain slavery

 

[Saigon]

EAST AND WEST pakistan were once ONE COUNTRY-----if the entire country had voted on partition-----in 1971-----Bangla desh would not exist

Well, partition was actually in 1948.

What I think you mean was that Bangladesh was formed from the ashes of the West & East Pakistan concept, which lasted from 1948 - 1971. I don't think there is much question that most Bangladeshis overwhelmingly favoured independence from West Pakistan, if only to be free of the 'Butcher of Bengal'.

What this has to do with Israel or the Sudan I have no idea.

 

[ima]

If the partition of Sudan had been put to a vote

It was put to a vote.

The people of South Sudan voted to become an independent country in 2011.

right and KHARTOUM did not vote If the jews of the middle east had voted on the issue regarding the establishment of Israel in 1948----the vote would have been IN FAVOR EAST AND WEST pakistan were once ONE COUNTRY-----if the entire country had voted on partition-----in 1971-----Bangla desh would not exist

your sophistry regarding the issue of DISTRIBUTION of populations is somthing like gerrymandering-------it is oldest trick in the cynical book of sociopathic manipulator imperialist pigs In the USA its most interesting history involves the issue of the struggle to maintain slavery

Not to worry, global warming will take care of Bangladesh.

So every minority in the world has a right to take whatever land they want? Or does your fictitious god first have to give it to you?

 

[irosie91]

It was put to a vote.

The people of South Sudan voted to become an independent country in 2011.

right and KHARTOUM did not vote If the jews of the middle east had voted on the issue regarding the establishment of Israel in 1948----the vote would have been IN FAVOR EAST AND WEST pakistan were once ONE COUNTRY-----if the entire country had voted on partition-----in 1971-----Bangla desh would not exist

your sophistry regarding the issue of DISTRIBUTION of populations is somthing like gerrymandering-------it is oldest trick in the cynical book of sociopathic manipulator imperialist pigs In the USA its most interesting history involves the issue of the struggle to maintain slavery

Not to worry, global warming will take care of Bangladesh.

So every minority in the world has a right to take whatever land they want? Or does your fictitious god first have to give it to you?

Minority groups have a right to struggle for their own survival. "GOD" has nothing to do with it Large groups such as yours which claim the right to Pillage, conquor, rape, murder and ultimately conrol and exploit and oppress will always face resistence. The ultimate re-establishment of Israel was assured when Constantine took over "holy roman" empire-------and a few hundred years later when the dogs of arabia entered Jerusalem-------historically the resistence to your aggressonis there have been going on since that time

 

[Saigon]

Large groups such as yours which claim the right to Pillage, conquor, rape, murder and ultimately conrol and exploit and oppress will always face resistence. The ultimate re-establishment of Israel was assured when Constantine took over "holy roman" empire-------and a few hundred years later when the dogs of arabia entered Jerusalem-------historically the resistence to your aggressonis there have been going on since that time

Interesting you don't mention the Crusades, which would probably be considered genocidal by most people these days.

You mention rape, pillage, murder...all tactics favoured by the Christians at the time.

Strange to find the "aggression" was something Muslims favoured...

btw, Constantine didn't "take over" the holy Roman empire - ho converted to Christianity only on his death bed.

 

[irosie91]

Large groups such as yours which claim the right to Pillage, conquor, rape, murder and ultimately conrol and exploit and oppress will always face resistence. The ultimate re-establishment of Israel was assured when Constantine took over "holy roman" empire-------and a few hundred years later when the dogs of arabia entered Jerusalem-------historically the resistence to your aggressonis there have been going on since that time

Interesting you don't mention the Crusades, which would probably be considered genocidal by most people these days.

You mention rape, pillage, murder...all tactics favoured by the Christians at the time.

Strange to find the "aggression" was something Muslims favoured...

btw, Constantine didn't "take over" the holy Roman empire - ho converted to Christianity only on his death bed.

you are deflecting again typical of the islamo nazi approach Your comment regarding the Crusades is silly I did not mention LOTS OF AGGRESSION in the history of the world I am fully aware of the nature of islamo nazi revisionist history which is generally "NOBLE MUSLIMS SAVE THE WORLD" and VICIOUS CRUSADERS FIGHT NOBLE MUSLIMS" I learned that version from scores of muslims I encountered in my youth-----you professionals in the US for -----continued professional training They were all TOP NOTCH students from their countries and had learned the islamic version of history TO PERFECTION Do you have pictures of noble scimitar bearing MUJAJADEEN astride horses decorating the walls of your living room?

if you wish to talk about the crusades-----go right ahead----I might join the conversation

No one is really sure when or even if CONSTANTINE converted to christianity His mother HELENE was the ardent christian and his grandson codified the oppressive laws that governened anyone who resisted conversion to christianity and which are the model for both DHIMMIA and THE NUREMBURG CODE try to learn some real history

 

[rebclick]

Actually, Shechem (now Nablus) has a huge presence in Jewish History. Shechem is the location of the original sacrifice Avraham made when he entered into convenant with G-d. Shechem is the first capital of ancient Israel after the people crossed the Jordan from fleeing Egypt and wandering in the dessert for 40 years. Shechem is where the Tent of Meeting was set up before King David danced before the ark when he moved the Tent to Jerusalem. Shechem was a Jewish city from around 1000 bce until around the fall of the temple circa 580 bce. Prior inhabitants were Caananites - not related in any manner to the current "Palestinians". Interesting to note that since "Palestine" is the name of the region associated with the Ottoman-Turk Empire and later taken over by the British Empire.. both Jew and NonJew were called Palestinian until 1967 when Yassar Arafat created the mentality that this was an "arab only" designation. Jewish Holy sites in Shechem (now Nablus) i.e. Joseph's tomb is usually a source of hostility between the local Muslims and Jewish pilgrims wanting to visit and honor their ancestors. If you do a Google Search using the words "Violence at Joseph's Tomb" you'll find that consistently Jews are prevented from visiting, chased off, attacked and otherwise abused for attempting to recognize their own holy site.

 

[Hossfly]

Actually, Shechem (now Nablus) has a huge presence in Jewish History. Shechem is the location of the original sacrifice Avraham made when he entered into convenant with G-d. Shechem is the first capital of ancient Israel after the people crossed the Jordan from fleeing Egypt and wandering in the dessert for 40 years. Shechem is where the Tent of Meeting was set up before King David danced before the ark when he moved the Tent to Jerusalem. Shechem was a Jewish city from around 1000 bce until around the fall of the temple circa 580 bce. Prior inhabitants were Caananites - not related in any manner to the current "Palestinians". Interesting to note that since "Palestine" is the name of the region associated with the Ottoman-Turk Empire and later taken over by the British Empire.. both Jew and NonJew were called Palestinian until 1967 when Yassar Arafat created the mentality that this was an "arab only" designation. Jewish Holy sites in Shechem (now Nablus) i.e. Joseph's tomb is usually a source of hostility between the local Muslims and Jewish pilgrims wanting to visit and honor their ancestors. If you do a Google Search using the words "Violence at Joseph's Tomb" you'll find that consistently Jews are prevented from visiting, chased off, attacked and otherwise abused for attempting to recognize their own holy site.

Very good and welcome to this forum.

 

[irosie91]

I am fascinated I did not know that shechem was all that significant other than the fact that one of my ancestors caused a fuss there over his sister Dina

I assumed that shechem was----a place not particularly important to ----uhm standard jews because it was a place ----I think ---where samaritins (karaites) lived I am amazed, however, that anyone would claim it had "ARAB" inhabitants for 2500 years -----quite a psychotic idea

 

[georgephillip]

Chumpsky makes a vald point (even a blind squirel stumbles across the occasional berry) but as is his penchant, adds an anti-American twist.
In this case, "America's oil interests" is made to sound like "evil America" when the fact is the world depends on a steady stream of affordable oil. Protecting the Mideast conduit falls on the US because nobody else on the planet can do it and if we can use Israel in any way, we should do so.

Do you know enough History to realize that when Chomsky was a young man Zionism meant opposition to a Jewish state? That it wasn't until 1942 that the Zionist movement came out officially in favor of a Jewish state?

"America's oil interests" refers to US control over who receives Middle East oil and how much they are entitled to. This has been true since the 1950s when the US supplied all its own domestic oil needs.

Those like Chomsky realized a Jewish state would be used as a cop on the beat to enforce "America's oil interests", and such a state would be discriminatory and racist.

I need to know where you get the crack you've been smokin'.
BTW, you do realize that those hapless "Palestinians didn't become "Palestinians" until 1964 and when registering those would-be "Palestinians" as refugees in 1948 the UN only required proof of 2 years of residency, right Princess?

History of Zionism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

'Zionism as an organized movement is generally considered to have been fathered by Theodor Herzl in 1897; however the history of Zionism began earlier and related to Judaism and Jewish history. The Hovevei Zion, or the Lovers of Zion, were responsible for the creation of 20 new Jewish settlements in Palestine between 1870 and 1897.[1]

Before the Holocaust the movement's central aims were the creation of a Jewish National Home and cultural centre in Palestine by facilitating Jewish migration. After the Holocaust, the movement focussed on creation of a "Jewish state" (usually defined as a secular state with a Jewish majority), attaining its goal in 1948 with the creation of Israel.'

"QUESTION: Does Zionism have anything to do with the fate of the Palestinians?

CHOMSKY: This is a very complex problem. It depends on what you mean by Zionism. I was a Zionist activist in my youth. For me, Zionism meant opposition to a Jewish state. The Zionist movement did not come out officially in favor of a Jewish state until 1942.

"Before this it was merely the intent of the Zionist leadership..."

Israel in Global Context, Noam Chomsky interviewed by Ludwig Watzal

Hundreds of thousands of "hapless Palestinians" saw their homes, businesses and bank accounts stolen by the Zionists in 1948. Some of those Palestinians had deeds to land that had been in their families for generations.

Simple self-determination required all eligible voters of Mandate Palestine to decide if they wanted to live in a Jewish State. The only reason that didn't happen is that elites in the US and UK wanted a strategic asset loyal to western corporate interests in the heart of Arab oil.