Krugman Poll on Canadian Healthcare

[PoliticalChic]

Any aspect of America is a target for such boors. Do you count yourself among them?

You people seriously believe that the entire rest of the world is out to get us, don't you?

Wow. Is everyone on the right a paranoid schizophrenic, or just you?

you are not able to avow that the WHO does collect its own data

Who cares if they collect their own data? Why would any country try to manufacture false health care data?

You seriously think that the entire world is conspiring to make the United States look bad, in the health care industry? What could possibly be gained from such a far-fetched plot?

Wait, now I understand, you're still locked in Cold-War propaganda thinking. This is not the USA vs the USSR anymore. If this is truly what you believe, and you are not just playing Devil's advocate, than there is something seriously wrong with you. Have you smoked a lot of pot or something to make you this paranoid?



Now that's funny, because the lol was a laugh at your utter lack of understanding of human nature.

A bit of self-aggrandizement

Look who's talking:

imitation is the sincerest of flattery. Complements on your good taste.

self-aggrandizement at it's finest. But again, you did warn us in point 1. of your original bit of projection that you would be accusing others of what you are guilty of.

I fully expected, and understand your precipitous retreat.

So, we are agreed that the WHO accepts what any nation pretends is the data on their healthcare system.

Based on your acceptance of my information, I expect that, as an honest poster, you will no longer post the bogus WHO figure as fact, but only for comic relief.

1."... believe that the entire rest of the world is out to get us..."

Clearly the majority of the world population feels quite the opposite, as documented by immigration numbers.

Remember the Teachers’ Union bumper sticker, ‘If you can read, thank a teacher,’? In your case, you can sue a teacher. Here, let me give you another chance to comprehend the passage I posted:
“The United States is comically bad at making its own case,” Maddox writes in the book’s opening pages. This observation will ring true to those Americans who wonder how their country—which welcomes more immigrants than any other, is more generous in its foreign aid than any other, and whose culture is so popular—could be loathed by so many. It will sound even more spot-on to those non-Americans, like Maddox, who consider themselves friends of the United States. For years, overseas admirers of the U.S. have had to endure witless editorials and boorish dinner companions ranting about how Uncle Sam is the root of all evil. Unfortunately, the government of the United States has failed miserably at defending itself in the court of world opinion.
Maddox makes the case for American indispensability. “American values are Western values,” she titles her third chapter. She stresses to her non-American readers that whatever differences they might have with America, they would do well to understand that the United States ultimately stands for individual rights, political freedom, and the free exchange of goods—all distinctly Western ideas."
CJ Mobile

But, not trusting you abilities, the point is that while many appreciate the United States, there are those "witless editorials and boorish dinner companions ranting about how Uncle Sam is the root of all evil."

See, that would include those whose "witless editorials " and the [WHO] fictional data you imbibe. Get it?

2. " Why would any country try to manufacture false health care data?"
When I see this kind of -what-passes-for-thinking, I can only fear that just talking to you drops my IQ .
I know you mean to retract that question.

Please, I don't want to be cruel to you if you are, as it appear, below the age of seven. Tell me now.


3. " This is not the USA vs the USSR anymore. If this is truly what you believe, and you are not just playing Devil's advocate, than there is something seriously wrong with you. Have you smoked a lot of pot or something..."

So, claiming ignorance is your modus operandi? In the American tradition, the sanctity of the individual, his freedom, and his life come before any political institution. In Thoreau’s "On the duty of Civil Disobedience", he states: “ There will never be a really free and enlightened State until the State comes to recognize the individual as a higher and independent power, from which all of its own power and authority are derived.”

The USSR reference seems to imply that you are unaware that the left, and certainly the current administration believe not in the individual, and his right to make choices, including about his healthcare, but in the collective, and the 'one plan for all'...along the lines of 'from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.' Do you see the connection yet?

And, as far as 'smoking pot,' no, never.

And the '...or something..' How indicative of your writing skills. As is the so creative and original "Look who's talking."

I understand your wish to 'play with the big boys,' but you are really out of your league.
Arguing with you is like playing tennis against the drapes.

 

[Jay Canuck]

[SIZE=+1]New Rule: Everything In America doesn't have to Make a Profit [/SIZE]
by Bill Maher
Link Excerpt:
It used to be that there were some services and institutions so vital to our nation that they were exempt from market pressures. Some things we just didn't do for money. The United States always defined capitalism, but it didn't used to define us. But now it's becoming all that we are. Did you know, for example, that there was a time when being called a "war profiteer" was a bad thing? But now our war zones are dominated by private contractors and mercenaries who work for corporations. There are more private contractors in Iraq than American troops, and we pay them generous salaries to do jobs the troops used to do for themselves ­-- like laundry. War is not supposed to turn a profit, but our wars have become boondoggles for weapons manufacturers and connected civilian contractors. Prisons used to be a non-profit business, too.

 

[PoliticalChic]

[SIZE=+1]New Rule: Everything In America doesn't have to Make a Profit [/SIZE]
by Bill Maher
Link Excerpt:
It used to be that there were some services and institutions so vital to our nation that they were exempt from market pressures. Some things we just didn't do for money. The United States always defined capitalism, but it didn't used to define us. But now it's becoming all that we are. Did you know, for example, that there was a time when being called a "war profiteer" was a bad thing? But now our war zones are dominated by private contractors and mercenaries who work for corporations. There are more private contractors in Iraq than American troops, and we pay them generous salaries to do jobs the troops used to do for themselves *-- like laundry. War is not supposed to turn a profit, but our wars have become boondoggles for weapons manufacturers and connected civilian contractors. Prisons used to be a non-profit business, too.

An absurd as well as untrue cartoon.

For Conservatives, data is important. How about you?

"Also, it’s worth noting that while these figures sound like a lot of money — and few would dispute the fact that health insurance company CEOs make healthy salaries — these numbers represent a very small fraction of total health care spending in the U.S. In 2007, national health care expenditures totaled $2.2 trillion. Health insurance profits of nearly $13 billion make up 0.6 percent of that. CEO compensation is a mere 0.005 percent of total spending."
FactCheck.org: Pushing for a Public Plan

And:
"There is a great deal of misconception among the public regarding excessive versus appropriate nonprofit salaries. To equip donors in evaluating the appropriateness of an individual charity’s CEO compensation in relation to its location, size, mission and overall performance, Charity Navigator has conducted an annual study on nonprofit CEO pay. With an average salary of roughly $160,000, this year’s findings prove that the majority of CEOs are not excessively compensated. Access our report to determine if the paycheck of your favorite charity’s CEO is reasonable, inadequate or excessive."
Charity Navigator - 2009 CEO Compensation Study


The real extra costs are due to the defensive actions of the healthcare professionals. The cost of extra tests and insurance to protect against lawsuits is fifteen time the amount of profit in the industry. That is 15 times.

Documentation:
While malpractice litigation accounts for only about 0.6 percent of U.S. health care costs, the fear of being sued causes U.S. doctors to order more tests than their Canadian counterparts. So-called defensive medicine increases health care costs by up to 9 percent, Medicare's administrator told Congress in 2005. "
Canada keeps malpractice cost in check - St. Petersburg Times


Let me do the math for you. Nine percent, the cost of defensive medicine, is fifteen time the six tenths of one percent which is the health insurance profits.

So, unless you dispute and can document that these figures are inaccurate, it would be dishonest of you to trumpet that healthcare is 'stealing' money.

I hope you realize that the idea was put in your head by a political ideology which thrives on class warfare and covetousness.

 

[Jay Canuck]

An absurd as well as untrue cartoon.

really... so why are the insurance companies in business - for profit or to help U.S citizens out?

 

[Jay Canuck]

 

[Vast LWC]

I fully expected, and understand your precipitous retreat.

Ahh, another attempt to declare victory when no surrender has been offered. An interesting strategy, but predictable.

So, we are agreed that the WHO accepts what any nation pretends is the data on their healthcare system.

We are not. WHO puts forward said information as data they collected. Therefore, unless proven otherwise, I assume that they are telling the truth, as they have no hidden agenda and receive their funding primarily from the United States. The data was collected during the Bush administration, so if any political agenda existed within WHO, it would probably be one opposite to what you suggest.

Based on your acceptance of my information, I expect that, as an honest poster

Since my acceptance was never offered, or implied, I expect you, as a dishonest poster, to continue to imply that it was.

As for the article you post from, it is an review of a opinion piece (in book form) based on the premise that the rest of the world hates America. Thus the title of the article: "Tough Love: Bronwen Maddox makes the case against Anti-Americanism", and the title of the book: "In Defense of America, by Bronwen Maddox".

In what reality does a review of an opinion piece constitute any kind of proof that the data from the World Health Organization is faulty?

When I see this kind of -what-passes-for-thinking, I can only fear that just talking to you drops my IQ .

And in a classic Coulterian move, you try to paint your political opponent as a fool because they don't agree with your point of view. Providing no data at all to support said point of view.

Which of course makes you look the fool...

So, claiming ignorance is your modus operandi?

Ignorance of what? You have still not provided anything to support your insinuations except your opinion and the opinion of someone who agrees with you.

Let me explain this, in terms you can understand.

There is opinion, and there is data.

The World Heath Organization has provided data, which you can interpret as you will.

You have provided your opinion, which I am free to ignore, as you have provided no data to back it up.

Now, please, enough of your pseudo-intellectual BS. You attempts to rationalize yourself out of the hole you've dug are pitiful.
You should just admit you made an unsubstantiated accusation and move on.

 

[PoliticalChic]

An absurd as well as untrue cartoon.

really... so why are the insurance companies in business - for profit or to help U.S citizens out?

Let's not obfuscate.

Article was about profit.

The cartoon was untrue and misleading.

The idea of profitless-society, the emblem of leftist thinking is remarkable in that you
1. do not understand human nature

2. fail to see capitalism as the locomotive that has moved civilization from feudalism to modern societies and democracy.

3. probably still believe "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" even though it has failed and led to heinous systems everywhere it has been tried

4. probably have not studied the Stakhanovite Movement of 1935, in which the Soviet systme found that rewarding extra work was far more efficient than the "from each...." system.

And "for profit or to help U.S citizens" is one of those "have you stopped beating your wife" questions. It does both.

The larger question: do you deny that 1. Governement estimates of costs historically go to 8 to 10 times in cost overruns, 2. universal healthcare systems are famous for rationing of care and reducing access.

 

[Jay Canuck]

 

[Toro]

Most polls are fairly accurate? - neato!..... and that's good enough for you but for me I don't have the proof that media polls are conducted using scientific methodologies . Oh and at least in my experience the people who agree with the accuracy of the media polls are the ones who agree with the conclusions.

Statisticians and mathematicians verify the soundness of methodologies of pollsters. Polls generally are pretty simple constructs. When the polls are released, they are usually accompanied by the study and the methodologies. The ABC/Washington Post polls are considered to be fairly rigorous.

Its generally been my experience that people without a background in statistics and who disagree with the conclusions are the ones who question the polls. That is to be expected. Usually the people who disagree with polls are on the Right and think the mainstream media is conspiring against them. They generally agree with the likes of Glen Beck. That is whom you are casting your lot with, FWIW.

It is also my experience talking to Americans about this issue over the years that the poll is a fairly accurate reflection of how Americans feel about health care.

 

[Vast LWC]

Oh, and:

Do you see the connection yet?

Between an oppressive, secretive totalitarian regime and a democratically elected, perhaps slightly socialist-minded, open-book administration?

No, there is no connection.

But, like all your right-wing nut-job buddies, you will continue to imply that Mr Obama is a Communist, and a Facist, that is when you're not implying that he's a Muslim or a Terrorist.

Once again showing a tendency toward paranoid schizophrenia.

You should really get that looked at. It seems to be contagious among the far-right. Kind of like a political STD.

 

[Vast LWC]

The cartoon was untrue and misleading.

Unsurprisingly I agree with Jay.

The cartoon was wholly accurate. Health Care cost in the United States are out-of-control.
Free-market competition has not stopped the cost of health care from continuing to rise.

None of your points disprove this, they only attack other points.

 

[Vast LWC]

So-called defensive medicine increases health care costs by up to 9 percent, Medicare's administrator told Congress in 2005.

Medicare's administrator at the time? Mark McClellan, a Bush political appointee.

Congress passed tort reform a few years ago. Medical costs continue to rise unabated.

 

[mskafka]

How many Americans don't have healthcare at all?
How many Americans are happy with the healthcare they have?

Among insured Americans, 82 percent rate their health coverage positively. Among insured people who've experienced a serious or chronic illness or injury in their family in the last year, an enormous 91 percent are satisfied with their care, and 86 percent are satisfied with their coverage.
ABCNEWS.com : U.S. Health Care Concerns Increase

“…when one digs deep enough, one finds that only 8 million folks can be classified as "chronically uninsured;" that's still a problem, of course, but a much more manageable one, and puts the lie to the canard that our system is irretrievably broken.”
InsureBlog: Vindicated!

“Once you whittle it down, you start to realize that the number of hard-core uninsured who are citizens is in fact fairly small — perhaps half the reported 47 million or less. (about 7.6%)”
IBDeditorials.com: Editorials, Political Cartoons, and Polls from Investor's Business Daily -- The '47 Million Uninsured' Myth


Enlightened?

Chic, who are the "hard-core" uninsured? What are the characteristics of a hard-core uninsured individual?

Persons under age 65
Number uninsured at the time of interview: 43.6 million (2008)
cdc.gov

I have a feeling that I know what your rebuttal will be, so let me have it.

 

[Jay Canuck]

Most polls are fairly accurate? - neato!..... and that's good enough for you but for me I don't have the proof that media polls are conducted using scientific methodologies . Oh and at least in my experience the people who agree with the accuracy of the media polls are the ones who agree with the conclusions.

Statisticians and mathematicians verify the soundness of methodologies of pollsters. Polls generally are pretty simple constructs. When the polls are released, they are usually accompanied by the study and the methodologies. The ABC/Washington Post polls are considered to be fairly rigorous.

Its generally been my experience that people without a background in statistics and who disagree with the conclusions are the ones who question the polls. That is to be expected. Usually the people who disagree with polls are on the Right and think the mainstream media is conspiring against them. They generally agree with the likes of Glen Beck. That is whom you are casting your lot with, FWIW.

It is also my experience talking to Americans about this issue over the years that the poll is a fairly accurate reflection of how Americans feel about health care.

Quite honestly I don't give a fuck about your experience, your opinion, what you think about people who usually disagree with media polling or who you have talked to. You see I can make my own mind up about what I trust and think and if you don't like what that happens to be I guess you'll just have to suffer through my posts or use your own intiative and not read them.....either way you're not going to change my mind with your blather

 

[Vast LWC]

Quite honestly I don't give a fuck about your experience, your opinion, what you think about people who usually disagree with media polling or who you have talked to.

Wow, that was rude, but more importantly counter-productive. Shame on you Jay.

 

[mskafka]

An absurd as well as untrue cartoon.

really... so why are the insurance companies in business - for profit or to help U.S citizens out?

Let's not obfuscate.

Article was about profit.

The cartoon was untrue and misleading.

The idea of profitless-society, the emblem of leftist thinking is remarkable in that you
1. do not understand human nature

2. fail to see capitalism as the locomotive that has moved civilization from feudalism to modern societies and democracy.

3. probably still believe "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" even though it has failed and led to heinous systems everywhere it has been tried

4. probably have not studied the Stakhanovite Movement of 1935, in which the Soviet systme found that rewarding extra work was far more efficient than the "from each...." system.

And "for profit or to help U.S citizens" is one of those "have you stopped beating your wife" questions. It does both.

The larger question: do you deny that 1. Governement estimates of costs historically go to 8 to 10 times in cost overruns, 2. universal healthcare systems are famous for rationing of care and reducing access.

1. "You do not understand human nature." Communism is not the answer. If it were, it wouldn't have failed so miserably so many times. There is no incentive to do anything better than the next person. So what is there to understand about capitalism and human nature? That greed will inevitably cloud one's judgement, ethics, and conscience?

2. Capitalism has definitely made our country great. And back in the days when the majority of business men and women weren't predatory, capitalism worked well without interference. This was before a lot of fine print, and 1,000 page contracts, meant to confuse a consumer into signing something that he or she really doesn't understand. When capitalism comes in this form, it is bad.

I like the system in the middle, or the "Third Way". Not exactly Centrism, but similar. Just like in politics...imo leaning too far one way or the other upsets the balance.

 

[Jay Canuck]

Most polls are fairly accurate? - neato!..... and that's good enough for you but for me I don't have the proof that media polls are conducted using scientific methodologies . Oh and at least in my experience the people who agree with the accuracy of the media polls are the ones who agree with the conclusions.

Statisticians and mathematicians verify the soundness of methodologies of pollsters. Polls generally are pretty simple constructs. When the polls are released, they are usually accompanied by the study and the methodologies. The ABC/Washington Post polls are considered to be fairly rigorous.

Its generally been my experience that people without a background in statistics and who disagree with the conclusions are the ones who question the polls. That is to be expected. Usually the people who disagree with polls are on the Right and think the mainstream media is conspiring against them. They generally agree with the likes of Glen Beck. That is whom you are casting your lot with, FWIW.

It is also my experience talking to Americans about this issue over the years that the poll is a fairly accurate reflection of how Americans feel about health care.

An absurd as well as untrue cartoon.

really... so why are the insurance companies in business - for profit or to help U.S citizens out?

Let's not obfuscate.

Article was about profit.

The cartoon was untrue and misleading.

The idea of profitless-society, the emblem of leftist thinking is remarkable in that you
1. do not understand human nature

2. fail to see capitalism as the locomotive that has moved civilization from feudalism to modern societies and democracy.

3. probably still believe "from each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" even though it has failed and led to heinous systems everywhere it has been tried

4. probably have not studied the Stakhanovite Movement of 1935, in which the Soviet systme found that rewarding extra work was far more efficient than the "from each...." system.

And "for profit or to help U.S citizens" is one of those "have you stopped beating your wife" questions. It does both.

The larger question: do you deny that 1. Governement estimates of costs historically go to 8 to 10 times in cost overruns, 2. universal healthcare systems are famous for rationing of care and reducing access.

so I take it that you will no longer need these services - mail, garbage collection, library, school, police and firemen since they are not for profit either?

 

[Jay Canuck]

Quite honestly I don't give a fuck about your experience, your opinion, what you think about people who usually disagree with media polling or who you have talked to.

Wow, that was rude, but more importantly counter-productive. Shame on you Jay.

just being honest I don't appreciate being compared to the likes of Glenn Beck because someone disagrees with my opinion.

 

[Vast LWC]

so I take it that you will no longer need these services

Don't forget the big one. The Military!

 

[Vast LWC]

I like the system in the middle, or the "Third Way".

This I agree with completely.

But this confuses me a bit:

And back in the days when the majority of business men and women weren't predatory, capitalism worked well without interference.

What period are you referring to exactly?