Let's be Just Like The Netherlands!!

[dilloduck]

Do you take aspirin for a headache? If you have a toothache, do you go to the dentist for relief? If suffering is this wonderful gift in order to get into heaven, then why bother to treat people at all? Let's just shut down all the hospitals, kill all the doctors (painfully, so they too can benefit from suffering) and just let nature run it's course in all matters.

I have never said that we should not do what we can to stop suffering or pain. On the contrary, I feel it to be one my primary goals in life. I have simply argued that killing the person whose pain we cannot control has nothing to do with dignity. It has everything to do with mans' inability to cope with pain.

 

[MissileMan]

LOL, there is quite a difference to taking an aspirin or medication to help oneself feel better, and having a doctor help to kill a patient. I don't expect anyone to understand this, especially those who don't believe in an afterlife, so Im not getting into it with you, it would be pointless. Of course no one wants to see anyone suffer, and It is God that gives doctors and science it's sucess, another concept lost on those that don't beleive......Anyway from my perspective there is no dignity in unnatural death unless you are giving your life for someone else. How about instead of death with dignity, it's called pity killing.

Try for just a moment to look at it like this; Suppose someone did something/s really shitty in their life, and they are suffering for that later on in that life because God wants every one of us to get to heaven. So in that suffering they find God, they give their family courage, and when they do die, they get unimaginable happiness. When you kill them you may be taking away their last opportunity to get that?
That's all Im saying??

One last question? What if the day after you kill someone out of pity, they find a cure for what that person had and now, oh well too late! You would probably say that's too improbable huh?

If someone's life is maintained or extended through artificial means, you say doctors are acting to fulfill God's will. If someone's life is shortened through artificial means you say that doctors are defying God's will. You want to have it both ways.

The real pity is that you believe a deity would have to resort to duress in order to extort faith.

The answer to your last question is obvious...if the person died the day before a cure was found, it must have been God's will.

 

[dilloduck]

If someone's life is maintained or extended through artificial means, you say doctors are acting to fulfill God's will. If someone's life is shortened through artificial means you say that doctors are defying God's will. You want to have it both ways.

The real pity is that you believe a deity would have to resort to duress in order to extort faith.

The answer to your last question is obvious...if the person died the day before a cure was found, it must have been God's will.

Discipline creates growth. Do you even believe in a diety or do you only do what feels good?

 

[manu1959]

if you truley belive in gods will....then you will accept whatever happens

 

[dilloduck]

if you truley belive in gods will....then you will accept whatever happens

I happen to believe that it's not our purpose to sit and watch. We should do all that is humanly possible to relieve suffering but there is much suffering that we are as of yet unable to assuage. You want to help people kill themselves at this point. I would continue to try to help and accept the results knowing I did all that I could. If the person died in pain I would certainly not resort to calling it "undignified".

 

[MissileMan]

Discipline creates growth. Do you even believe in a diety or do you only do what feels good?

Are those my only 2 choices?

 

[Said1]

Are those my only 2 choices?

LOL. :teeth:

 

[dilloduck]

Are those my only 2 choices?

:teeth: No, pick away--this is America ! Which diety is it that promises no pain?

 

[MissileMan]

:teeth: No, pick away--this is America ! Which diety is it that promises no pain?

Actually, the answer was no to both of your choices, hence why I asked for others.

 

[dilloduck]

Actually, the answer was no to both of your choices, hence why I asked for others.

This ain't multiple choice here---if you want to explain to me how you make it thru life without suffering, I'm all ears.

 

[MissileMan]

This ain't multiple choice here---if you want to explain to me how you make it thru life without suffering, I'm all ears.

When did I suggest that?

 

[dilloduck]

When did I suggest that?

The real pity is that you believe a deity would have to resort to duress in order to extort faith.

Since suffering is a reality, those that believe in a diety usually have an explaination for it's existence and a method for coping with it. I was simply asking if you knew of some other way to cope since you have pity on those who feel it to be a reality that must be dealt with in some manner. Killing those who suffer seems to be the suggestion of some who have posted here.

 

[MissileMan]

Since suffering is a reality, those that believe in a diety usually have an explaination for it's existence and a method for coping with it. I was simply asking if you knew of some other way to cope since you have pity on those who feel it to be a reality that must be dealt with in some manner. Killing those who suffer seems to be the suggestion of some who have posted here.

I know there are some factions of Christianity who believe in atonement or believe in purgatory, I'm questioning the belief that suffering is cleansing to one's soul. What is the purpose of six months of endless agony if a person has no great sin to atone for? Do you really believe that a deity passes out these individual punishments to strengthen people's faith? If you do, please explain why great suffering is leveled on innocent children around the world every day. What is their crime...what great sins have they committed?

Other than the original post that talked about Dutch doctors, this has been a discussion about assisted suicide for the terminally ill.

 

[dilloduck]

I know there are some factions of Christianity who believe in atonement or believe in purgatory, I'm questioning the belief that suffering is cleansing to one's soul. What is the purpose of six months of endless agony if a person has no great sin to atone for? Do you really believe that a deity passes out these individual punishments to strengthen people's faith? If you do, please explain why great suffering is leveled on innocent children around the world every day. What is their crime...what great sins have they committed?

Other than the original post that talked about Dutch doctors, this has been a discussion about assisted suicide for the terminally ill.

Legal, ethical and moral arguments have been made on this thread . I personally have no idea why there is suffering. I simply question assisted suicide being answer to the problem. I'm all for easing suffering but looking for an easy way out of it by condoning suicide seems morally lazy and ethically wrong.

 

[no1tovote4]

I happen to believe that it's not our purpose to sit and watch. We should do all that is humanly possible to relieve suffering but there is much suffering that we are as of yet unable to assuage. You want to help people kill themselves at this point. I would continue to try to help and accept the results knowing I did all that I could. If the person died in pain I would certainly not resort to calling it "undignified".

Pain is not what makes an "undignified" death. It is when the mind is lost, the loss of all substantive control of bodily function.

For each person the point may be different, but when they beg for death from family members and friends who come in hope that they may give comfort, for some they have reached a point beyond dignity.

As they feel their savings suctioned away by the impersonal machinery that keeps them alive and the inheritance they worked so hard to be able to give flushed so that others can tell them they must learn to live with their pain. As they look on with horror they see the pity of those that mean the most to them as they wither, frail beyond measure they get to hear from those that are there to make their suffering ease throughout their life, but can no longer relieve even the remotest pain, that this too is a lesson that they must learn. No longer strong enough to effect their own surcease they beg it from any whom they see only to be rebuffed because they have not yet suffered enough.

Decrepit and humbled they leave this place in agony as they came in with no recourse other than to hope they code and signed their DNR before they came as they are no longer able to be determined capable to sign it now. They no longer hold the keys to their own soul, but others make the choice that it must be clean we will not allow you to end this.

This is a nightmare that I hope I will never have to live through, nor would wish on any other soul. An ending that I doubt I could withstand. It would not be the pain that would end it for me but the loss of my faculties and the end of control over my own soul, that no choices are left to me but to live and watch as all I planned and worked for is lost to the altar of medicine.

 

[dilloduck]

Pain is not what makes an "undignified" death. It is when the mind is lost, the loss of all substantive control of bodily function.

For each person the point may be different, but when they beg for death from family members and friends who come in hope that they may give comfort, for some they have reached a point beyond dignity.

As they feel their savings suctioned away by the impersonal machinery that keeps them alive and the inheritance they worked so hard to be able to give flushed so that others can tell them they must learn to live with their pain. As they look on with horror they see the pity of those that mean the most to them as they wither, frail beyond measure they get to hear from those that are there to make their suffering ease throughout their life, but can no longer relieve even the remotest pain, that this too is a lesson that they must learn. No longer strong enough to effect their own surcease they beg it from any whom they see only to be rebuffed because they have not yet suffered enough.

Decrepit and humbled they leave this place in agony as they came in with no recourse other than to hope they code and signed their DNR before they came as they are no longer able to be determined capable to sign it now. They no longer hold the keys to their own soul, but others make the choice that it must be clean we will not allow you to end this.

This is a nightmare that I hope I will never have to live through, nor would wish on any other soul. An ending that I doubt I could withstand. It would not be the pain that would end it for me but the loss of my faculties and the end of control over my own soul, that no choices are left to me but to live and watch as all I planned and worked for is lost to the altar of medicine.

So would you recommend assisted suicide to all who want it so that they may avoid pain and save money?

 

[freeandfun1]

So would you recommend assisted suicide to all who want it so that they may avoid pain and save money?

The other thing these advocates seem to ignore is the fact that what is "painful" to one person is "tolerant" to another. How does one determine how much pain one really is in? How do you determine how much pain is too much? I understand Manu's experience with his uncle and such, but what about the guy that is not nearly as bad off but says, "the pain is too much for me"?

Is a broken heart enough pain? I mean, to some, a broken heart is enough to kill themselves over. So should we allow them to go to a doc to get help in their suicide so they can feel it is a more "dignified" manner of killing themselves? I just think all this euthenasia stuff is a slippery slope that can be very dangerous.

 

[no1tovote4]

So would you recommend assisted suicide to all who want it so that they may avoid pain and save money?

So they may still have the right to choices that effect their own soul if that is their wish...

My point in that post is it was not the pain, at least for me, that would take my dignity it goes far deeper than that. I was not purporting assisted suicide per se, but more describing that it was deeper than pain in that particular scenario. That the loss was more than just their mind, or due to pain, it was the loss of what they had built and worked for, their legacy. They watch as the story they worked so hard to write is erased. It could be the loss of free will, and any ability to effect their destiny in a positive or negative way as they would choose. The very thing that makes them human has been taken from them and they can no longer care for their own soul, whether for good or bad others have taken that from them.

There are many different things that individual people may determine would be the loss of their dignity, but in your post you had limited it only to pain. To relieve their suffering...

My only goal was to show that it may go deeper than just the pain or the personal agony. It may be a strike at their very soul.

 

[dilloduck]

The other thing these advocates seem to ignore is the fact that what is "painful" to one person is "tolerant" to another. How does one determine how much pain one really is in? How do you determine how much pain is too much? I understand Manu's experience with his uncle and such, but what about the guy that is not nearly as bad off but says, "the pain is too much for me"?

Is a broken heart enough pain? I mean, to some, a broken heart is enough to kill themselves over. So should we allow them to go to a doc to get help in their suicide so they can feel it is a more "dignified" manner of killing themselves? I just think all this euthenasia stuff is a slippery slope that can be very dangerous.

Slippery in many aspects too---- if we truly believe we can eradicate suffering, this leaves us having to make an incredibly subjective decision which may ultimately deprive some who are in actually more pain suffer longer because they do not fit the criteria.

 

[no1tovote4]

The other thing these advocates seem to ignore is the fact that what is "painful" to one person is "tolerant" to another. How does one determine how much pain one really is in? How do you determine how much pain is too much? I understand Manu's experience with his uncle and such, but what about the guy that is not nearly as bad off but says, "the pain is too much for me"?

Is a broken heart enough pain? I mean, to some, a broken heart is enough to kill themselves over. So should we allow them to go to a doc to get help in their suicide so they can feel it is a more "dignified" manner of killing themselves? I just think all this euthenasia stuff is a slippery slope that can be very dangerous.

Once again the level at which such help would be available was described earlier in the thread. It was discussed that it would take the same level that a person needs in order to enter a Hospice. This would definitely not suffice, however many people have engineered their own means of death for less than that and many more will in the future at that point they have the means to determine the future of their own soul by their action. They can make the choice to end it in myriad ways without assistance.

And once again, you are limiting it to pain only, and my sole intention in my previous post was not to convince you that assisted suicide is right but to inform that it may not be the pain...