Zone1 Mary's sinlessness

[Procrustes Stretched]

2 Timothy 2:23-26, 2 Timothy 2:14, Matthew 12:25, Matthew 18:15-16, Romans 14:1-23, Romans 16:17-18, 1 Corinthians 3:3, 1 Corinthians 13:1-2, 1 John 4:20-21, Proverbs 6:16-19, Proverbs 28:25, Galatians 5:15, Galatians 5:19-21, Titus 3:10, Jude 1:19, Ephesians 4:3-6, Ephesians 4:31-32, Colossians 3:12-14, 1 Corinthians 12:25, 1 Peter 3:8, Philippians 2:1-2, John 17:20-23, Mark 3:24-25, Luke 11:17 and James 3:16.

Wow II!

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Maryology -- look it up. And most of the guys there -- whew!

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

I have a connection to Seton, not the school or...

but the person that spawned the order? ?

Elizabeth Ann Bayley Seton SC (August 28, 1774 – January 4, 1821) was a Catholic religious sister in the United States and an educator, known as a founder of the country's parochial school system. Born in New York and reared as an Episcopalian, she married and had five children with her husband William Seton. Two years after his death, she converted to Catholicism in 1805.

Seton established the first Catholic girls' school in the nation in Emmitsburg, Maryland. There she also founded the first American congregation of religious sisters, the Sisters of Charity.

After her death, Seton was the first person born in what would become the United States to be canonized by the Catholic Church (September 14, 1975).

Assuming it’s Explicit​

The assumption (no pun intended!) casually made by those who argue in this way is the notion: “all doctrines believed by Christians must be explicitly mentioned in Scripture.” This is a key aspect of the Protestant foundational belief in sola Scriptura (Scripture is the only infallible authority or rule of faith).

But the Bible, in fact, never teaches this idea (nor sola Scriptura itself). Protestants can’t prove it from Scripture. Moreover, there are other doctrines held by Protestants, too, based on no biblical indications at all. One clear example is the canon of Scripture. The Bible never lists its own books. The “Table of Contents” comes entirely from Christian Tradition. Yet Protestants accept it (minus seven books); and this is contrary to sola Scriptura. Despite all this, we are unreasonably asked to prove everything we believe as Catholics, from explicit biblical passages.

Catholics believe that all Catholic and Christian doctrines must be in harmony with Scripture; must not contradict it; also, that some doctrines are able to be supported only indirectly, implicitly, or by deduction from other related Bible passages.

All Catholic doctrines have scriptural support in some sense (this is my main specialty as an apologist). We also believe in Sacred Tradition: itself always in harmony with Scripture. Sometimes (as in the present case), a doctrine is “stronger” in Tradition.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Is MARY SINLESS?​

Even with the best intention's one cannot prove... from the Bible...

Correct. No proof required.

 

[hobelim]

Is MARY SINLESS?​

Even with the best intention's one cannot prove Mary is sinless from the Bible. The Word of God gives a different story than the traditions the Roman Catholic church uses to validate their dogma of the Immaculate conception. Eve was the only sinless woman who ever existed, until she sinned.But Eve was not born but created from Adam. In Luke 1:34 when the angel Gabriel first appeared to her and announced the savior would be conceived in her womb, she responded, “ how can this be since I do not know a man.” Mary asked the angel what manner of greeting is this. If she was sinless certainly she would have known and understood the things of God, but Mary could not understand why she had been selected for this honor. In Luke 2:49-50 When Mary and Joseph after a day's journey found out that Jesus was missing from their company they went back to find Him. After two more days they found Him teaching in the temple teaching. Mary then asks Jesus why he did not leave with them, they looked high and low for him? His response is, why did you look all over for me? Did you not know that I must be about my fathers business (work)?”

Lk.2 “But they (both Mary and Joseph) did not understand the words he spoke to them.” Notice in both accounts Mary does not understand the things of God. Someone who is sinless would know God’s ways and not need a explanation. It is sin that corrupts ones understanding of spiritual things. What did they not understand? That Jesus would be about His Fathers business. In this account we see Mary equal with Joseph in not understanding.

Nowhere does the Bible says Mary was sinless or the exception to sin passed on from each generation. For such a miraculous event the Bible surely would have spoken to this issue. Catholics do not find this doctrine from the context of Scripture but from making a pretext out of the Scripture from their Church tradition (which happens to be written down). But again it is not apostolic tradition. If Mary was conceived without sin then her parents would have certainly known and would have assumed she was to bare the Messiah. The Catholics say she became sinless later in life. This would mean God took someone who has the nature of sin and completely change them to be sinless like Jesus Christ--without a virgin birth. Certainly such a miracle would be mentioned in the Scripture, but it is not! The Bible has no hint of such a thing to occur and actually says the very opposite in no uncertain terms in Romans 3. Accusing all of humanity to be under sin except for one, the God/man with the virgin birth.

There is not one Scripture given in context to show Mary is without sin. However, there is much to show the opposite. In Luke 1:46-47: After she visits Elizabeth and she is blessed she exalts the Lord saying “ My soul magnifies the Lord, and my spirit has rejoiced in God my savior.' Here Mary is saying that God is her personal savior, only sinners need a savior. In vs. 48 Mary states “ Henceforth all generations will call me blessed for He (God) has done great things for me and Holy is His name and His mercy is on those who fear Him.” Notice she says, God is Holy not herself, that He will have mercy upon her. Mercy is withheld punishment, only a sinner needs the mercy of God. It wasn’t until 1850 that the Catholic church endorsed Mary's sinlessness. Luke records by the Holy Spirit that Mary said she is a sinner by her admission in needing a savior, but the Pope says she does not. So then the Bible would be wrong and a man called the Pope is right, it can't be both.

She also states God has done great things for her, yet in Catholic theology today it is more the opposite. She has done great things for God! How clear is the Bible to speak to today’s current trends of religion.

“And it happened, as He spoke these things, that a certain woman from the crowd raised her voice and said to Him, "Blessed is the womb that bore You, and the breasts which nursed You!” Here they extolling Jesus’ mother (as the Catholic Church does today), notice what Jesus’ reaction is v.28 But He said, “More than that, blessed are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” (Luke 11:27-28). The WORD of God was what Jesus said was more important, even than His earthly mother.

In the Catholic translation of the Bible ( Douay Rheims) it reads in Luke 1:28 “ the angel said to her: Hail Mary full of grace the Lord is with thee.” Unanimously in all the other translations which are from the Greek, not the Latin. They instead say, “ Rejoice, highly favored one the Lord is with you, blessed are you among women.” At first we notice she is blessed among women not exalted above them. She is chosen in preference to all the women upon earth, not men. The word for grace is what is being disputed. Roman Catholics state that this grace is a special measure to Mary only, but this does not fit the Biblical record. This word in the Greek is Kechari tomene (a perfect participle in the verb form, an omega verb) it means the one who God has graced, to give undue favor; only sinful people need God's grace. She is being chosen in preference to all the women upon earth, favoured above all the daughters of the house of David to be the mother of the Messiah in the flesh. This refers to one who is a recipient of God's favor, not the source of grace. This word for grace is from the root word Charitoo in Ephesians 1:6 it is also used of the believers in that church, “graced us.” A. T. Robertson, the Greek scholar states it is a late verb charitoo (from charis, grace), in the New Testament attracted to case of antecedent charitos only here and Luke 1:28 (Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament).

This term is also used of Stephen in Acts 6:8 yet no one would claim that he too is without original sin. This is the same used for all who have been graced by God. Mary was no different in this respect. It was grace given to her to conceive without the aid of man and care for Jesus.

(The later part of Luke 1:28 “blessed art thou among women.” according to Strong's concordance are inserted words; This word was added by the translators for better readability in the English. There is no actual word in the Greek text. The word may be displayed in italics, or in parentheses or other brackets, to indicate that it is not in the original text.)
V.30 And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God.” This grace means endued with special honor: she was honored with the blessing to birth the Messiah. Again this is the same word for grace as to believers in the New Testament. Where does it say the virgin will be without sin? It doesn’t, it does not say she is sinless but full of Grace which really is highly favored. If full of grace means without sin than what of the grace given to believers, God’s grace is promised to all the believers collectively? Mary didn’t have grace from birth but when she was going to be with child. But the Catholic Church insists Mary was preserved from all stain of original sin from the first instant of her conception. (The Doctrine of the Immaculate Conception Catechism of the Catholic Church, 490-492).

The Greek reads like this in Luke 1:28 of the Interlinear Transliterated Bible

eípen Chaíre kecharitooménee ho Kúrios metá soú

said, Hail, ( thou that art) highly favoured, the Lord (is) with thee:

Besides it says “blessed are you among women!” Not among men and woman. This is significant because Catholics claim she was without sin, singled out among all mankind. The whole theology of Mary’s sinlessness is based on this one passage that says nothing of the sort.

How does anyone get this to mean without sin when the bible says only God is without sin is beyond belief. John 1:14 “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. V.15-17 6 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace.”

pleérees cháritos

full of grace

Full is the from the word it means to “fill” (literally or figuratively [imbue, influence, supply (Interlinear Transliterated Bible ) To have grace does not mean one is sinless it means God's favor toward that person.
Eph 1:6: “to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved.” In Eph 1:6, grace has the meaning of being “made... accepted.” The believers are made accepted by the same grace that Mary enjoyed. (Go to article on the virgin birth) If the term cháritos means "sinlessness," then it would have to be applied the elect of God, to be sinless as well. In other words one cannot be inconsistent in its usage unless they can find a serious reason for it. In Lk.1:42 Elizabeth's words were “you are most blessed of all women” Does not mean Mary was the holiest of all women, but blessed because she carried the savior.

Luke 1:30 Do not be afraid, Mary, for you have found favor (grace) with God. Many others found the same grace from God. Gen. 6:8 “But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.” Ex. 33:12 “Yet You have said, 'I know you by name, and you have also found grace in My sight.” Ezra 9:8 “And now for a little while grace has been shown from the LORD our God.” Ps. 84:11 “The LORD will give grace and glory; No good thing will He withhold From those who walk uprightly.” 2 Cor. 9:8 “And God is able to make all grace abound toward you, that you, always having all sufficiency in all things, may have an abundance for every good work.” Rom 6:15: “we are not under law but under grace?”

Furthermore there are other things that cannot be ignored. Mary brought a sacrifice of two turtledoves in accord to Jewish law in Leviticus chapter 12. One was for a burnt offering, the other was for a sin offering. This couldn’t have been for the child who was the Holy one, the sinless spotless lamb of God. This must have been for her own uncleanness. Mary's conformity to the law is an admission she was a sinner needing to be restored by cleansing, only sinners need cleansing.

Another point of contention with the Scripture-- If Mary is the woman of Revelation 12 as Roman Catholics say, it describes her with birth pains which according to the Bible is a judgment on sinners (Gen. 3:15-16).

At the wedding feast of Cana, Mary realizes the wine has run out. She makes Jesus aware of the need, He replies “woman what do I have to do with you, my hour has not yet come.” Jesus felt she was going to reveal who He was before the right time and manner. He let her know He is not subordinate to a persons request, He is not subject to another person's will, not even His own earthly mother, only His Fathers who is in heaven. She had no say in his ministry. Jesus obeyed the law to honor both His Father and his mother, but he would not allow her to choose the time of his disclosure. She receives this correction and then proceeds to tell everyone to listen to her son. Jesus obeyed the commandments of God perfectly as it states “to honor your father and Mother.” In Luke 2:51 we see Jesus was subject to His parents, not Mary alone.

The wages of sin is death, all who sin die. If Mary was sinless she could not have died. Which is what modern Mariology says in Roman Catholicism. What are the ramifications of Mary being sinless? She would be the first human being without sin since Adam. She would qualify to be our substitute just as Jesus, since only a sinless being could redeem mankind. There would have been no need for Jesus. The Bible is clear only God is holy in this way. 1 Sam.2:2 says, “there is no one holy as the Lord,” in Rev.15:4 we see the redeemed singing the song of the lamb in heaven “You alone are Holy.” They are not singing this to Mary! If you are without sin, you are Deity! (this of course means after Eve sinned and before the resurrection where all believers will be changed together to have a completely new nature not having sin). Jesus said of which sin do you accuse me of…He had no accusers, Mary could never say this.

The Bible teaches that whenever God necessitates an exception to a rule or standard He will always state it clearly. For example marriage is a life long bond, Jesus taught that there was one exception. The exception to this commitment which was either death or adultery (Mt.9:19) which gave the one offended a way out if they so chose. We see the rule of sin in mankind is to all people, no exceptions. “All have fallen short of the glory of God” (Rom.3:23). All who have sinned and fall short or deprived of the glory of God. For one to be sinless as Mary is claimed to be means they have the glory of God. Yet God himself states “my glory I will not give another.” The only one who shares in this glory is Jesus (Jn.17:5), Mary did not have God’s glory, only Jesus did. Rom.5:12 tells us sin entered the world through one man and spread to all as death reigned. The only exception is the holy one from all eternity. It took nothing short than deity to accomplish sinlessness in the flesh via the virgin birth. The virgin birth was the vehicle but not a source for his sinlessness. Romans 3:10-12 “As it is written, There is NONE righteous, no, NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth, there is NONE that seeketh after God. They are ALL gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is NONE that doeth good, no, NOT ONE.”

If Mary ascended to heaven like Jesus, this incredible act of someone raised in a resurrection or never dying would certainly be recorded in Scripture. Yet it is suspiciously omitted from John’s writings, the one who she was entrusted to be looked after by Jesus. John’s last book the Revelation was written 85-90 A.D. Neither John nor any historian of the early church records this. This is an unknown doctrinal event that evolved until it was ratified in 1854. Roman Catholic tradition has made speculation into doctrine with Mary being guarded from actual sin by becoming sinless. This concept was around from about the twelfth century, and was developed into a papal decree of December 8, 1854. On November 1, 1950, the bull Munificentissimus Deus declared the dogma of the Assumption of Mary. This dogma asserts “that the Virgin Mary, the Immaculate Mother of God, when the course of her life was finished, was taken up, body and soul, into the glory of heaven” (Acta Apostolicae Sedis, 32 [1950], pp. 753-73).
Where does Scripture say Mary is perfect (sinless) in her body without a resurrection? The resurrection is the very event we need to become sinless. Mary's body rests in the ground with the rest of the saints waiting for the resurrection. There are no personal raptures until the first resurrection occurs. That will be when the whole church both the living and the dead are transformed and raised.

Mary waited in the upper room for the Holy Spirit with the rest of the apostles and disciples. Mary was not numbered among the apostles nor is she exalted in any way above their ministry as the 12 pillars of the churches foundation. She is not mentioned in heaven as the apostles are the foundation for the new Jerusalem. Nowhere do we find the apostles conferring with Mary in doctrine. Nor are there any miracles attributed to her as are with the apostles.

Marys sinlessness

Is mary immacualte, did she need to be sinless to have the sinless son of God, did she listen to her son, what do their own scholars say.

www.letusreason.org

Damn.

that was a lot of words ignoring the story where some guy came to the window of a 14 year old virgin claiming to be an angel sent by God because she was chosen to give birth to the messiah.

Thats why when he parents confronted her pregnancy and asked, "what man did this" she replied, "I was never with a man. I was with an angel." Imagine the look on her parents faces!

Hence the claim of her being "parthenos" which means virgin but can also imply being gullible.

 

[Procrustes Stretched]

Damn.

that was a lot of words ignoring the story where some guy came to the window of a 14 year old virgin claiming to be an angel sent by God because she was chosen to give birth to the messiah.

Thats why when he parents confronted her pregnancy and asked, "what man did this" she replied, "I was never with a man. I was with an angel." Imagine the look on her parents faces!

Hence the claim of her being "parthenos" which means virgin but can also imply being gullible.

Do you want to claim that superstitious-Jews-of-old didn't believe in Angels?

 

[ding]

Wow II!

Apparently there are a lot of verses about the importance of being polite.

 

[ding]

I have a connection to Seton, not the school or...

but the person that spawned the order? ?

Elizabeth Ann Bayley Seton SC (August 28, 1774 – January 4, 1821) was a Catholic religious sister in the United States and an educator, known as a founder of the country's parochial school system. Born in New York and reared as an Episcopalian, she married and had five children with her husband William Seton. Two years after his death, she converted to Catholicism in 1805.

Seton established the first Catholic girls' school in the nation in Emmitsburg, Maryland. There she also founded the first American congregation of religious sisters, the Sisters of Charity.

After her death, Seton was the first person born in what would become the United States to be canonized by the Catholic Church (September 14, 1975).

Assuming it’s Explicit​

The assumption (no pun intended!) casually made by those who argue in this way is the notion: “all doctrines believed by Christians must be explicitly mentioned in Scripture.” This is a key aspect of the Protestant foundational belief in sola Scriptura (Scripture is the only infallible authority or rule of faith).

But the Bible, in fact, never teaches this idea (nor sola Scriptura itself). Protestants can’t prove it from Scripture. Moreover, there are other doctrines held by Protestants, too, based on no biblical indications at all. One clear example is the canon of Scripture. The Bible never lists its own books. The “Table of Contents” comes entirely from Christian Tradition. Yet Protestants accept it (minus seven books); and this is contrary to sola Scriptura. Despite all this, we are unreasonably asked to prove everything we believe as Catholics, from explicit biblical passages.

Catholics believe that all Catholic and Christian doctrines must be in harmony with Scripture; must not contradict it; also, that some doctrines are able to be supported only indirectly, implicitly, or by deduction from other related Bible passages.

All Catholic doctrines have scriptural support in some sense (this is my main specialty as an apologist). We also believe in Sacred Tradition: itself always in harmony with Scripture. Sometimes (as in the present case), a doctrine is “stronger” in Tradition.

My turn to say... Wow!!!!

 

[hobelim]

Do you want to claim that superstitious-Jews-of-old didn't believe in Angels?

Well, no. I read the Dead Sea scrolls and saw that at least this sect kept many things secret from the Jewish laity, especially the hidden meaning of the Law, but in the war scroll they wrote they expected the messiah to appear with fiery angels from the sky to defeat the kittim oppressors.

Not unlike many Christians today who expect Jesus to come down from the sky to toss those hated unbelievers, especially those peace loving hippie pinko commie fags, right into fire lake.

Others more sober minded believed in angels but knew an angel was a metaphor for a human being just like demons are, both terms reflecting the heights and depths of human potential.

So I guess they all "believed". Some "beliefs" were sane, others not so much.

 

[Cougarbear]

no, provide the etched tablets claimed by the liar moses - to prove your point ... their false commandments used as heavenly personification that never existed.

mary is the repudiation of judaism from the beginning of the 1st century events, chosen by the heavens as their representative.

Either or... Why do I have to produce the tablets? You stole them.

 

[playtime]

if she was human, then she has sinned.

 

[JustAGuy1]

Yes.



Mother May was not forced to be good - she was good. The decision to become the mother of god is only able to be a 100% free decision. Sin makes unfree. So she was without sin.

Sorry, no.

 

[BreezeWood]

Either or... Why do I have to produce the tablets? You stole them.

they have never existed is why you can not prove your beliefs made for you by the liar moses.

 

[Cougarbear]

they have never existed is why you can not prove your beliefs made for you by the liar moses.

Absence of evidence is never evidence of absence. Just plain faulty logic and reasoning. Have you ever lost your keys? Your kids or dog hid them? They still exist even though they are absent. The fact we have manuscripts of the past existence is good enough. One day, God will let you see them if you are a good boy.

 

[zaangalewa]

Just telling the truth. You can’t handle the truth?

So if you are not a liar then you are an an astonishing stupid "Christian". What is your real intention with the nonsense which you say?

 

[zaangalewa]

“A” retarded caveman… there have been disabilities all along the way. But, I was suggesting your communication was worse than an uneducated caveman.

You used the wrong picture "caveman" on reason to attack my person by waking pictures from a 19th century "knowledge". I prefer to see something else in "caveman".

 

[zaangalewa]

Like I said, retarded caveman. I’ve never said I was a secular atheist.

My mistake. Sorry.

I’m a very strong believer in Jesus Christ.

You think you believe in Jesus the Christ? Which one? This one called Donald Trump worshipped at self-made desert altars?

I believe in present day prophets

In what? Name of your "prophet" please.

and prophecy-revelation.

Eh? You believe in the creator god "destructive fake-chaos"?

 

[BreezeWood]

They still exist even though they are absent ... is good enough.

for the desert religions ...

they are absent because they never existed, moses is a liar ... and are used by the crucifiers to persecute and victimize the innocent - c bear.

mary was afraid of neither moses or his phony commandments and is why she, jesus, joseph and mary magdalene where chosen by the heavens to lead the 1st century events - the repudiation of judaism.

 

[zaangalewa]

for the desert religions ...

they are absent because they never existed, moses is a liar ... and are used by the crucifiers to persecute and victimize the innocent - c bear.

mary was afraid of neither moses or his phony commandments and is why she, jesus, joseph and mary magdalene where chosen by the heavens to lead the 1st century events - the repudiation of judaism.

What a stupid nonsense. Jesus, Joseph, Mary from Magdala and nearly all others in the bible had been Jews. When you read negative statements from whomever in the bible then you read about conflicts between Jews before it had been clear that a new religion had been born. Since this was clear existed no problems between Jews and Christians on religious reasons. Persecution of Jews started in Europe with the first crusade about 1200 years later. It had specially something to do with the Brits and Normans - (and the Seljuks - a turkish tribe or nation - who had conquered Jerusalem and Mekka a short time before the crusades (="Frankonian wars") had happened).

 

[BreezeWood]

if she was human, then she has sinned.

another crucifier looking for a victim, mary. ... what has human have to do with the subject.

moses did not just lie about the commandments ...

Then they said, “Let us make life in our image, in our likeness, the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky the livestock and all the wild animals, and all the creatures that move along the ground.”

they lied about creation that the heavens chose mankind any differently than all other living beings - all being equal to not be sinners and admission to the everlasting.