Zone1 Morality is natural phenomenon.

[Blues Man]

I think moral dilemmas are pretty rare actually. There is only right and wrong. And sometimes the rules have to be applied differently to do what is right.

OK so stealing is either right or wrong. There is no continuum.

Stealing is ALWAYS wrong and NEVER right.

This is your position correct?

SO let's say you come across a person who has been gravely injured and is bleeding out. You don't have a phone and there is no one else on the street with you. All the businesses are closed for the night but there is drug store on the corner. Do you break in and steal medical supplies to save the person's life or do you say "I'm sorry . Sir but stealing is always wrong and breaking into a store is always wrong so I guess I have to let you bleed to death"?

 

[ding]

Being objective is not discovering truth it is recognizing facts. It is divorcing emotion from reason

And You know I was speaking human sensory and nervous systems in that post. I think you'll find I also mentioned that when two people look at a tree they do not see the same thing

We know it is not beneficial for a child to be raped repeatedly because of the effect it has on that child's mind and body.

That is objectivity

Which you said no one can be and then changed your mind.

 

[ding]

Pot kettle Donkey

Sometimes

 

[Blues Man]

Which you said no one can be and then changed your mind.

No I did not say that.

I was referring to perception and the fact that the tree you see is not the tree I see

Ideas and perceptions do not have the same neural pathways

We can agree that it is objectively wrong to beat a child with a stick even if the bible says it's OK but we cannot objectively agree on the quality of the pain that child will actually feel

 

[Blues Man]

Sometimes

Always. You hold yourself to a different standard than everyone else.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

LOL I know what you mean Sparky. But those animals care only about themselves and their status in the pack. Probably do feel affection for their mate, their offspring, some or all in their group. But I am confident that even if they are aware about what is happening to other groups or other species, they could care less. So what is it that prompts people to volunteer to help out, who send donations to orphanages and other ministries to help people they are unlikely to ever meet or even know their names, who fund organizations like Animal Humane Association and such? I can't see rational thinking or science as the root cause of either.

There are some birds that help out other birds they are related to but not of their immediate family. But they do not lift a feather to help another bird that is not of their own genetic family even if that bird is in serious trouble. It is a phenomenon that is fascinating to watch.

Humans seem to be the only species that cares much about anything other than themselves and theirs.

You really don't have a clue.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

Among their own heirarchy yes. But do you think they think about or care about the crows in the next town or country? As the Bible says, everybody, even the evil, know how to give good gifts to their children. Caring about ourselves, our family, our group is not the same thing as caring about people or creatures that we will never meet, that will never have opportunity or perhaps inclination to reciprocate in any way. Only human beings seem to have that capacity.

You don't have pets, do you? Have you really ever spent time really watching wildlife? I already know

 

[Foxfyre]

How can we figure out that repeatedly raping a child is reprehensible behavior?

Do you need a god to tell you that? I sure as hell don't

Behaviors that do not result in the harm of other people are desirable, behaviors that harm other people are not. That is the crux of morality. Humans know this and can rationally examine human behavior and rank all behaviors in the continuum of beneficent to harmful


What were humans doing before Moses had his hallucination in front of a burning bush? They were making laws regarding the behavior of people in society.

Let me ask you this if there was a religion and their divinely given holy book said every third person would walk in darkness, would you have no opinion on this culture's blinding of every third child born because their morality was divine in origin?

I have no idea what you are saying here other than you indelicately mock religion, but it sure doesn't address anything I've said.

 

[Foxfyre]

OK so stealing is either right or wrong. There is no continuum.

Stealing is ALWAYS wrong and NEVER right.

This is your position correct?

SO let's say you come across a person who has been gravely injured and is bleeding out. You don't have a phone and there is no one else on the street with you. All the businesses are closed for the night but there is drug store on the corner. Do you break in and steal medical supplies to save the person's life or do you say "I'm sorry . Sir but stealing is always wrong and breaking into a store is always wrong so I guess I have to let you bleed to death"?

YOU say stealing is wrong and never right. And in our American culture that is mostly true. But even that is subjective depending on the circumstances. The Federation stole plans to a Death Star that the Empire could use to destroy an entire planet. They were able to therefore destroy the Death Star and save their lives and that of millions of people. Yes that was fiction but I bet not a single American enjoying the movie thought stealing those plans was wrong. Was that not very different than breaking into a drug store?

And what we consider right and wrong now was very different among many ancient people including our own American Indians. That is simple fact.

 

[Foxfyre]

You really don't have a clue.

Oh I think I do. You can show me any study in biology that disputes my take on that. But I doubt you can find any even remotely credible source that will even suggest differently.

 

[OneIsTheWord]

... And not a mandate from your "god".



Cooperation and ethics evolved naturally. Because they promote survival.

Do not be deceived: “Bad company ruins good morals Judgement.”
You shall have no other gods before me.

​

Exodus 20:3-17 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it, you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates.
For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male servant, or his female servant, or his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.”

James 2: 10-26 For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become guilty of all of it. For he who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.

Faith Without Works Is Dead​

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder! Do you want to be shown, you foolish person, that faith apart from works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works; and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness”—and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way, was not also Rahab the prostitute justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out in another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

 

[Donald H]

I'm not Catholic. So I can't speak to that, other than to say that having one foot in the world and one foot in Christianity goes clearly against the teachings of Jesus and the scriptures, going back to the beginning.

I'll translate that to mean that the CC's flock shouldn't have been granted permission to believe what they like concerning Genesis or Darwinian evolution. And of course that could never be acceptable to jesus in his time, assuming that jesus was what he's said to have been.

That's yet another topic that could be a thread of its own. Ultimately one needs to 'pick a side.' Because what the world promotes is simply not compatible with biblical Christianity.

I consider threads that deal with religion should cover all aspects of religion and Christianity. There's no clear boundaries upheld to say it shouldn't. If you're proposing some boundaries then I would like to hear your proposal.

To answer your question for me, I believe Darwinian evolution is one of the biggest lies ever perpetrated on mankind. I used to believe it, in the past. Not because I saw evidence or because it made sense to me.... simply because it was what I was taught growing up. Now I can see it for what it is.... just one of the many lies most of us grew up with.

That's pretty well how I feel about Christianity.

We can respectfully disagree but I don't think we can agree with the Catholic church's 'having one foot in the world and one foot in Christianity', as you describe their position.

If you're not familiar with their position on Genesis/evolution, ding can explain it to you, and explain how his church pretends that is conditional.

 

[Donald H]

Of course you aren't. God forbid you have to confront your false narratives with reality.

I can only conclude that his letter from the god is another story that's not to be believed as literally true. Hence, it can't be relevant to any discussion.

 

[Donald H]

OK so stealing is either right or wrong. There is no continuum.

Stealing is ALWAYS wrong and NEVER right.

This is your position correct?

SO let's say you come across a person who has been gravely injured and is bleeding out. You don't have a phone and there is no one else on the street with you. All the businesses are closed for the night but there is drug store on the corner. Do you break in and steal medical supplies to save the person's life or do you say "I'm sorry . Sir but stealing is always wrong and breaking into a store is always wrong so I guess I have to let you bleed to death"?

That's not really helpful. All that is necessary to say is that Christians can see no line between true stories and stories that can't be believed as literally true.

And the worst thing about that is that they refuse to draw a line. Hence, we don't really know if they believe in Jonah and the big fish story or not, for one example.

A lot more relevant to their beliefs than lying! They live the lies but they aren't actually lying, as opposed to not knowing that they're lying.

 

[ding]

I can only conclude that his letter from the god is another story that's not to be believed as literally true. Hence, it can't be relevant to any discussion.

No, it's an admonishment of what to do and what not to do and is therefore relevant to all discussions, thoughts, behaviors and actions. And since you haven't watched it, you don't have a clue as to why your behavior is so poor.

 

[Donald H]

No, it's an admonishment of what to do and what not to do and is therefore relevant to all discussions, thoughts, behaviors and actions. And since you haven't watched it, you don't have a clue as to why your behavior is so poor.

I watched the first minute where he claimed to have a letter from the god.

Not only was that a lie, I would think that Christians should treat it as blasphemy.

We're sp[ending far too much time discussing an imaginary letter that isn't the topic here. I'm all for an open discussion on religion but not to the point of monopolizing the topic with fantasy letters from the god.

 

[Donald H]

No, it's an admonishment of what to do and what not to do and is therefore relevant to all discussions, thoughts, behaviors and actions. And since you haven't watched it, you don't have a clue as to why your behavior is so poor.

Let me know if my behaviour offends your beliefs.

 

[ding]

I watched the first minute where he claimed to have a letter from the god.

Not only was that a lie, I would think that Christians should treat it as blasphemy.

We're sp[ending far too much time discussing an imaginary letter that isn't the topic here. I'm all for an open discussion on religion but not to the point of monopolizing the topic with fantasy letters from the god.

Thank you for proving my point. Please continue on with your poor behaviors.

 

[ding]

Let me know if my behaviour offends your beliefs.

It only harms you.

 

[buttercup]

I'll translate that to mean that the CC's flock shouldn't have been granted permission to believe what they like concerning Genesis or Darwinian evolution. And of course that could never be acceptable to jesus in his time, assuming that jesus was what he's said to have been.

No, that's not what I said or meant. Not even close. They can believe what they want. They can teach what they want. All I was saying was that biblical Christianity is not compatible with many of the ideas this world pushes, which go directly against the Scriptures. And we're not supposed to be conformed to the world. See Romans 12:2.

Why would you say something as absurd as "they shouldn't have been granted permission"? Who would grant or not grant them permission? And why on earth would you think that I would support something as dictatorial as that?

I consider threads that deal with religion should cover all aspects of religion and Christianity. There's no clear boundaries upheld to say it shouldn't. If you're proposing some boundaries then I would like to hear your proposal.

You completely missed the point. Again. I'm seeing a pattern now.

I was just saying that I think it's an interesting topic that Christianity teaches that we (Christians) are supposed to be set apart and different than the world. We're not supposed to look exactly like the world and follow the world's ways, most of which go against God's will...

And since this thread is specifically about morality being a natural as opposed to supernatural phenomenon, I was just saying that I believe that other topic could be a good thread of its own.

Why do some of you seem so opposed to new topics being created? It's like you want to pile everything into one thread. Heck, if we did that, we would have one thread on this entire site, with 10 million pages.

It makes it so much easier to search for something when threads are actually about the topic that the title says it's about.

That's all. No biggie.

That's pretty well how I feel about Christianity.

OK. Well, time will tell. I have zero doubt that one day it will become very clear who is right and who is wrong.

We can respectfully disagree but I don't think we can agree with the Catholic church's 'having one foot in the world and one foot in Christianity', as you describe their position.

If you're not familiar with their position on Genesis/evolution, ding can explain it to you, and explain how his church pretends that is conditional.

Well, I was making a statement in theory. The point was, in theory, no church or denomination is supposed to have one foot in the world and one foot in Christianity. Jesus and the scriptures going back to the beginning teach against that.

That said, I don't want to get into a discussion about the Catholic Church, but IF they are teaching that evolution is true, it wouldn't be the first time that the Catholic Church put worldly ideas above the Scriptures, they have done that with other things as well. But again, I don't want to talk about that at the moment anyway.