Zone1 Morality is natural phenomenon.

[Donald H]

No, that's not what I said or meant. Not even close. They can believe what they want. They can teach what they want. All I was saying was that biblical Christianity is not compatible with many of the ideas this world pushes, which go directly against the Scriptures.

To be fair, you have to admit that the analogy was vague.

Why would you say something as absurd as "they shouldn't have been granted permission"?

It's not absurd in my opinion. The CC has done irreparable damage to Christianity by not remaining silent on the fact (that I believe) Those facts of evolution that you don't believe. I see why you call it absurd.

Who would grant or not grant them permission?

Their church in fact did grant the permission.

And why on earth would you think that I would support something as dictatorial as that?

You're not a Catholic and so I wouldn't expect that you would support it. Dog knows, it compromises all their beliefs. Permission to accept Darwinian evolution while necessarily rejecting creation, seems to leave them with nothing to believe as pertaining to their bibles. Do you agree?

You completely missed the point. Again. I'm seeing a pattern now.

I was just saying that I think it's an interesting topic that Christianity teaches that we (Christians) are supposed to be set apart and different than the world. We're not supposed to look exactly like the world and follow the world's ways, most of which go against God's will...

I haven't argued against that. I've only said that your meaning was vague and suggested that you would be fair about that.

And since this thread is specifically about morality being a natural as opposed to supernatural phenomenon, I was just saying that I believe that other topic could be good for a thread of its own.

Why do some of you seem so opposed to new topics being created? It's like you want to pile everything into one thread. Heck, if we did that, we would have one thread on this entire site, with 10 million pages.

I'm not opposed to new topics. I'm opposed to ding's and others dishonest attempts t censor others by claiming something is off topic. Otherwise, I'll trust in moderator decisions.

It makes it so much easier to search for something when threads are actually about the topic that the title says it's about.

That's all. No biggie.

That can hardly apply to this forum. We should be able to agree on that. In fact, we're both engaged in off topic discussion right now! Let's not waste our time arguing what is and what isn't.

OK. Well, time will tell. I have zero doubt that one day it will become very clear who is right and who is wrong.

I agree in that I would suggest that has already happened.

Well, I was making a statement in theory. The point was, in theory, no church or denomination is supposed to have one foot in the world and one foot in Christianity. Jesus and the scriptures going back to the beginning teach against that.

If you want me to understand that, you're going to have to stop being vague. I tried once already to understand it and you told me I had it wrong. I'll try again even though I shouldn't. I think you mean that religion and science need to be separated.

That said, I don't want to get into a discussion about the Catholic Church, but IF they are teaching that evolution is true, it wouldn't be the first time that the Catholic Church put worldly ideas above the Scriptures, they have done that with other things as well, but again, that's off topic and I don't really want to talk about it at the moment anyway.

The Catholic church did permit their flock to believe in Darwinian evolution. I don't agree with that being off-topic. It's a repudiation of all Christian beliefs. It's void of morality and therefore immoral from a Christian's POV.

 

[Meriweather]

I don't want to get into a discussion about the Catholic Church, but IF they are teaching that evolution is true

The Catholic Church teaches nothing about evolution. The Church only teaches the spiritual aspects of Genesis and other books of the Bible. The Church could not care less whether a Catholic believes that God created all in a literal six days of 24-hours each, or whether a Catholic believes God created the world over a timeline of millions of years. Doesn't matter how God created; what matters is the belief God created our world and our existence. We are focused on the spiritual aspects of our lives.

 

[Meriweather]

It's a repudiation of all Christian beliefs.

It is not. Christians are not focused on the physical aspects of the world. Christians are focused on spirituality and right behaviors.

 

[Donald H]

It is not. Christians are not focused on the physical aspects of the world. Christians are focused on spirituality and right behaviors.

You can try to convince buttercup, not me.

Does The Catholic Church Accept Evolution?

To summarize my series of articles on evolution, let’s ask: Does the Catholic Church accept the validity of the theory of evolution. The answer to this question is both yes and no. While there has been no binding statement of faith issued by the magisterium on this question, several popes and...

www.catholic365.com

Note that there's a yes and a no answer.

Which is the truth and which is a lie can be determined by you and buttercup.

That is, unless one or both of you runs for cover?

Several Popes:

First, there is no inherent opposition between faith and the scientific evidence that life evolved from lower forms to higher forms over many millions of years.

A slamdunk!

 

[Meriweather]

You can try to convince buttercup, not me.

There is a difference between making the effort to share or to convince. My purpose is to share, not to convince. People are perfectly able to make up their own minds based on their own reasoning.

 

[Donald H]

There is a difference between making the effort to share or to convince. My purpose is to share, not to convince. People are perfectly able to make up their own minds based on their own reasoning.

Alright I can accept that. Your track record of being honest with yourself deserves a few free passes. Otherwise, I'll wait to see how buttercup handles this thing of the CC's acceptance of evolution.
I'm beginning to think she probably won't.

 

[buttercup]

It's not absurd in my opinion. The CC has done irreparable damage to Christianity by not remaining silent on the fact (that I believe) Those facts of evolution that you don't believe. I see why you call it absurd.

"Science" in today's world is agenda-driven. So many lies are taught that you clearly have fallen for, hook line and sinker.

There is no "fact" of Darwinian evolution. Does some form of "evolution" occur? Yes, but it's just adaptation.

All life, in its amazing variety, beauty and design did not come from one amoeba in a primordial pond scum.

And like I said, I don't want to get into a controversial discussion about the CC, but I will say this.... you are partially correct. I believe that the CC has done a lot of damage to Christianity, but not for the reason you stated. It's the exact opposite. By teaching false ideas and doing things that go against God, the CC has damaged Christianity because too many people wrongly assume that the CC represents Christianity. And it doesn't.

Their church in fact did grant the permission.

You're not a Catholic and so I wouldn't expect that you would support it. Dog knows, it compromises all their beliefs. Permission to accept Darwinian evolution while necessarily rejecting creation, seems to leave them with nothing to believe as pertaining to their bibles. Do you agree?

Well, I hope it's clear by now that I wholeheartedly disagree with the CC encouraging people to believe things that clearly go against scripture. But that said, Christianity is about more than just the creation account. You act as if that's all there is.

If they teach other things as well that go against scripture, which I believe they do, then in my view they are just showing that they aren't Spirit-led. That's why I never went back to the Catholic church as an adult once I became a believer. (I was raised going to Catholic church as a child, and it caused me to become an unbeliever for many years.)

I haven't argued against that. I've only said that your meaning was vague and suggested that you would be fair about that.

I think I've been clear, but if not, I'll try to be more specific and even more clear in the future. I don't like misunderstandings.

I'm not opposed to new topics. I'm opposed to ding's and others dishonest attempts t censor others by claiming something is off topic. Otherwise, I'll trust in moderator decisions.

That can hardly apply to this forum. We should be able to agree on that. In fact, we're both engaged in off topic discussion right now! Let's not waste our time arguing what is and what isn't.

Ok.

I agree in that I would suggest that has already happened.

That's only because you believe the lies you've been taught. And aren't you from socialist godless Canada? So it's not surprising you hold the views you do. lol.

But I do partially agree, but of course with the opposite conclusion. As time goes on, pretty much everything the Bible said would happen is actually happening, right now.

For example, the Bible talks about a future one-world government that will be evil.... and I believe it's getting increasingly obvious that we ARE heading toward world government. The powers-that-shouldn't-be don't even hide their plans anymore, they're becoming more and more open about it.

If you want me to understand that, you're going to have to stop being vague. I tried once already to understand it and you told me I had it wrong. I'll try again even though I shouldn't. I think you mean that religion and science need to be separated.

You're putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say anything about religion and science needing to be separated. I didn't say anything for or against that.

When I say that the Bible teaches against having one foot in the world and one foot in Christianity, that can apply to a number of different things. Not just what the Bible says about creation. But many topics.

It just means that God wants us to make a choice. Who are we going to follow... God and God's way, or this fallen corrupt world and the misguided ways of this world? I've made my choice, and it was the best decision I ever made.

Is everything I'm saying still unclear to you? lol

The Catholic church did permit their flock to believe in Darwinian evolution. I don't agree with that being off-topic. It's a repudiation of all Christian beliefs. It's void of morality and therefore immoral from a Christian's POV.

Again, you're barking up the wrong tree. Take that up with Meriweather, she is very Catholic.

 

[Donald H]

"Science" in today's world is agenda-driven. So many lies are taught that you clearly have fallen for, hook line and sinker.

There is no "fact" of Darwinian evolution. Does some form of "evolution" occur? Yes, but it's just adaptation.

All life, in its amazing variety, beauty and design did not come from one amoeba in a primordial pond scum.

And like I said, I don't want to get into a controversial discussion about the CC, but I will say this.... you are partially correct. I believe that the CC has done a lot of damage to Christianity, but not for the reason you stated. It's the exact opposite. By teaching false ideas and doing things that go against God, the CC has damaged Christianity because too many people wrongly assume that the CC represents Christianity. And it doesn't.

Im good with that.

Well, I hope it's clear by now that I wholeheartedly disagree with the CC encouraging people to believe things that clearly go against scripture. But that said, Christianity is about more than just the creation account. You act as if that's all there is.

And that too!

If they teach other things as well that go against scripture, which I believe they do, then in my view they are just showing that they aren't Spirit-led. That's why I never went back to the Catholic church as an adult once I became a believer. (I was raised going to Catholic church as a child, and it caused me to become an unbeliever for many years.)




I think I've been clear, but if not, I'll try to be more specific and even more clear in the future. I don't like misunderstandings.

You know you weren't being clear.

Ok.



That's only because you believe the lies you've been taught. And aren't you from socialist godless Canada? So it's not surprising you hold the views you do. lol.

But I do partially agree, but of course with the opposite conclusion. As time goes on, pretty much everything the Bible said would happen is actually happening, right now.

Could be, or it could be coincidental, or even an attempt to match realities up with prophesies.

For example, the Bible talks about a future one-world government that will be evil.... and I believe it's getting increasingly obvious that we ARE heading toward world government. The powers-that-shouldn't-be don't even hide their plans anymore, they're becoming more and more open about it.

I don't know of anything that suggests one world government is obvious, nor do I know who you imagine to be the powers. I wouldn't argue much with the notion of a two-polar world. However, there is no clear divide going to take place to for Christianity being exclusive to one side.

You're putting words in my mouth again. I didn't say anything about religion and science needing to be separated. I didn't say anything for or against that.

It was one of my guesses on account of your 'two feet' statement being so vague.

When I say that the Bible teaches against having one foot in the world and one foot in Christianity, that can apply to a number of different things. Not just what the Bible says about creation. But many topics.

I didn't suggest it was exclusively about creation, I suggested that the Catholics were in the process of taking down all Christian beliefs with them accepting Darwinian evolution. They should have ignored the issue but they obviously felt that it had come to be impossible to ignore.

It just means that God wants us to make a choice. Who are we going to follow... God and God's way, or this fallen corrupt world and the misguided ways of this world? I've made my choice, and it was the best decision I ever made.

Yes, you made your choice to leave the Catholic church and I wouldn't say it was a bad decision. But that does too depend on where else you went for religion?

Is everything I'm saying still unclear to you? lol

No, it's never been unclear to me, except a minor issue on your meaning of the two feet' .......................?

Again, you're barking up the wrong tree. Take that up with Meriweather, she is very Catholic.

I'm not barking up a tree, I'm using you for the purpose of making my points to this forum. And I'm not suggesting that I'm using you in an insulting way. I'm satisfied that you have served my purpose as it relates to the evil of the CC.

 

[ding]

I'm satisfied that you have served my purpose as it relates to the evil of the CC.

 

[ding]

I don't think it's possible for the Catholic Church to receive a better endorsement than a militant atheist calling it evil.

 

[buttercup]

The apologetics never end.

Oh you stupid people don't understand that the slavery in the Iron Age was a kinder gentler slavery than in later times.

In addition to speaking for believers, which is one of your favorite pastimes, you also love to put words in people's mouths.

You ignored everything I said and you're once again proving my point that you don't understand the Bible or Christianity, at all.

The original Greek word in the verse you posted is used 127 times, and 120 of those times, it is translated to "servant."

So there is some truth to your sarcastic statement, because in biblical days, a common practice was for people who were in debt to sell themselves into indentured servitude, to pay off a debt. So that type of situation was definitely not like the type of slavery that comes to mind for us Americans when we think about the slavery that existed in our nation's past.

But something else that you never seem to understand is that this is a fallen world, but it's just temporary... The reason God allows bad things to happen is because God gave us free will and it is mankind who has abused that free will. But if God forced everyone to do everything right, and never allowed anyone to do anything wrong, then we would all be like robots, or marionettes, completely under the control of God, with no freedom whatsoever.

Obviously that would not only be wrong, but pointless, why would God want to create a world of robots with no free choice whatsoever?

That said, just because God allows bad things to happen doesn't mean it's what God wants. God's perfect will is peace and harmony among all creation, love, kindness and respect for others....not exploitation, selfishness or cruelty. And according to the Bible, one day in the future we will have that world of peace and harmony, after this age is over and the true power of the world reigns forevermore.

You cannot get around the fact that your god did not condemn slavery because it was OK but he sure as hell made sure to say faggots should be killed.

Your burning hatred literally oozes from every post of yours in this section. You don't know God. At all. You have an upside-down, extremely warped caricature version of God in your head, but it's not the reality. You're not going to like hearing this, but I highly suggest you ditch the weed, and the type of meditation you're into. This might sound crazy to you, but I truly believe that you have opened doors to the demonic realm, and that's one of the reasons why you're so anti-Christian.

Yet another thing that you don't understand is that Jesus didn't come here to get into politics and set up a perfect world in this fallen corrupt age. In fact, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36) This world is temporarily under the control of the enemy of God, who the Bible calls "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4)

What God wants is for people to put their faith and trust in Him, and literally become a new creation. And when that happens, things change for the better. That's when individuals change, communities change, and even nations can change. But it has to start from within, from inside a person. That's what brings God's "kingdom" to this fallen world, in the sense that it exists within those who are truly His, truly following God. And eventually it will exist in a literal, universal way, when the current age we're in is over.

The moral decrees of your god listed in the bible are in many cases reprehensible to people today, even to religious zealots.

And even you cherry pick what morals listed in your holy divinely created books demand.

^ That's a load of BS. You're speaking from a standpoint of spiritual blindness and a complete lack of understanding when it comes to anything having to do with God or Christianity. You completely ignore the most important point, that Jesus paid the price for your and all of our sins, so that we can have a clean slate, a new heart / spirit and be reconciled to God. You have no idea how radically a person's life can change for the better, when they come to Christ and get born again. I have seen the most amazing stories of transformation and major change, not only in many Christians that I've known, but in my own life as well. There is joy, peace, purpose, continual growth and gaining wisdom, blessings and favor, and more... Those things would not happen if God was the evil villain that is your completely warped perception. This post turned out to be longer than I thought it would... but one last thing I want to say is that you are in my prayers.

 

[Blues Man]

I have no idea what you are saying here other than you indelicately mock religion, but it sure doesn't address anything I've said.

I am saying that we do not need to appeal to supernatural authorities in order to decide which behaviors are harmful to people.

That 's all morals and morality are

 

[Blues Man]

YOU say stealing is wrong and never right. And in our American culture that is mostly true. But even that is subjective depending on the circumstances. The Federation stole plans to a Death Star that the Empire could use to destroy an entire planet. They were able to therefore destroy the Death Star and save their lives and that of millions of people. Yes that was fiction but I bet not a single American enjoying the movie thought stealing those plans was wrong. Was that not very different than breaking into a drug store?

And what we consider right and wrong now was very different among many ancient people including our own American Indians. That is simple fact.

So then there is not only right or wrong as you stated earlier

And now you are arguing morals as a subjective cultural based set of rules. Doesn't that conflict with the morals come from the Abrahamic god argument?

 

[Blues Man]

In addition to speaking for believers, which is one of your favorite pastimes, you also love to put words in people's mouths.

You ignored everything I said and you're once again proving my point that you don't understand the Bible or Christianity, at all.

The original Greek word in the verse you posted is used 127 times, and 120 of those times, it is translated to "servant."

So there is some truth to your sarcastic statement, because in biblical days, a common practice was for people who were in debt to sell themselves into indentured servitude, to pay off a debt. So that type of situation was definitely not like the type of slavery that comes to mind for us Americans when we think about the slavery that existed in our nation's past.

But something else that you never seem to understand is that this is a fallen world, but it's just temporary... The reason God allows bad things to happen is because God gave us free will and it is mankind who has abused that free will. But if God forced everyone to do everything right, and never allowed anyone to do anything wrong, then we would all be like robots, or marionettes, completely under the control of God, with no freedom whatsoever.

Obviously that would not only be wrong, but pointless, why would God want to create a world of robots with no free choice whatsoever?

That said, just because God allows bad things to happen doesn't mean it's what God wants. God's perfect will is peace and harmony among all creation, love, kindness and respect for others....not exploitation, selfishness or cruelty. And according to the Bible, one day in the future we will have that world of peace and harmony, after this age is over and the true power of the world reigns forevermore.



Your burning hatred literally oozes from every post of yours in this section. You don't know God. At all. You have an upside-down, extremely warped caricature version of God in your head, but it's not the reality. You're not going to like hearing this, but I highly suggest you ditch the weed, and the type of meditation you're into. This might sound crazy to you, but I truly believe that you have opened doors to the demonic realm, and that's one of the reasons why you're so anti-Christian.

Yet another thing that you don't understand is that Jesus didn't come here to get into politics and set up a perfect world in this fallen corrupt age. In fact, Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36) This world is temporarily under the control of the enemy of God, who the Bible calls "the god of this world" (2 Cor 4:4)

What God wants is for people to put their faith and trust in Him, and literally become a new creation. And when that happens, things change for the better. That's when individuals change, communities change, and even nations can change. But it has to start from within, from inside a person. That's what brings God's "kingdom" to this fallen world, in the sense that it exists within those who are truly His, truly following God. And eventually it will exist in a literal, universal way, when the current age we're in is over.




^ That's a load of BS. You're speaking from a standpoint of spiritual blindness and a complete lack of understanding when it comes to anything having to do with God or Christianity. You completely ignore the most important point, that Jesus paid the price for your and all of our sins, so that we can have a clean slate, a new heart / spirit and be reconciled to God. You have no idea how radically a person's life can change for the better, when they come to Christ and get born again. I have seen the most amazing stories of transformation and major change, not only in many Christians that I've known, but in my own life as well. There is joy, peace, purpose, continual growth and gaining wisdom, blessings and favor, and more... Those things would not happen if God was the evil villain that is your completely warped perception. This post turned out to be longer than I thought it would... but one last thing I want to say is that you are in my prayers.

So slaves were "servants" nice euphemism.

Denying that slavery in the Iron Age was somehow a less than reprehensible crime against humanity is utter stupidity
And now not agreeing with you is "hatred"? I don't hate anyone. That's you projecting.

I guess unlike you I don't believe human sacrifice and the torture of a human being solves anything or absolves the "sins" of people who haven't been born yet.

But then again I don't believe that people are all hopeless, wicked sinners who are utterly incapable of behaving unless they are under threat of death and torture from a "all loving" god

 

[crossbody]

There is the secular view of morality and there is the Godly mandate for morality.

One is an optional freewill form of morality, and the other one is done out of obedience and love unto God.

 

[Blues Man]

There is the secular view of morality and there is the Godly mandate for morality.

One is an optional freewill form of morality, and the other one is done out of obedience and love unto God.

There are only human morals.

Humans wrote the bible, humans make laws, humans can ultimately decide what moral code will benefit humans the most.

I'll say it again. You do not live by ALL the moral edicts of the bible. If you refuse to beat your child with a stick or if you think owning slaves is morally reprehensible then you are ignoring the morality of the bible and choosing a better type of behavior than your god did.

 

[crossbody]

There are only human morals.

Humans wrote the bible, humans make laws, humans can ultimately decide what moral code will benefit humans the most.

I'll say it again. You do not live by ALL the moral edicts of the bible. If you refuse to beat your child with a stick or if you think owning slaves is morally reprehensible then you are ignoring the morality of the bible and choosing a better type of behavior than your god did.

As far as beating a child with a stick/rod that is NOT Biblical. God never told anyone to beat a child, nor hit a child with anything. People have been lying on God. Most people have always misunderstood that verse of scripture.

When God speaks of foolishness being caught up in the heart of a child, but the rod will drive it out of them. God is speaking of the rod of love. God is in no way at all speaking of any kind of violence. God is telling parents that their love will drive the foolishness out of a child.

This is why God is the best teacher of morality that we must adhere to and obey. Mankind must pray to God for an understanding of God's Word.

 

[Blues Man]

As far as beating a child with a stick/rod that is NOT Biblical. God never told anyone to beat a child, nor hit a child with anything. People have been lying on God. Most people have always misunderstood that verse of scripture.

When God speaks of foolishness being caught up in the heart of a child, but the rod will drive it out of them. God is speaking of the rod of love. God is in no way at all speaking of any kind of violence. God is telling parents that their love will drive the foolishness out of a child.

This is why God is the best teacher of morality that we must adhere to and obey. Mankind must pray to God for an understanding of God's Word.

So spare the rod spoil the child doesn;t mean corporal punishment with a stick now?

If your god was speaking of the "rod of love" why not say spare your love spoil the child? We know a lot of priests used their "rod of love" on children don't we?

You are giving me your interpretation of the bible and how do I know you're right?

What about the 10 Commandments? Is the punishment for not observing the Sabbath death or does the word death have a different definition to your god?

And god neve taught anyone morality. If I am to believe the bible is the word of your god than all your god ever said was "DO as I tell you or I'll kill you"

 

[crossbody]

So spare the rod spoil the child doesn;t mean corporal punishment with a stick now?

If your god was speaking of the "rod of love" why not say spare your love spoil the child? We know a lot of priests used their "rod of love" on children don't we?

You are giving me your interpretation of the bible and how do I know you're right?

What about the 10 Commandments? Is the punishment for not observing the Sabbath death or does the word death have a different definition to your god?

And god neve taught anyone morality. If I am to believe the bible is the word of your god than all your god ever said was "DO as I tell you or I'll kill you"

It never did mean that. We all had it wrong, and needed to learn the real truth about that.

Think about school teachers who cannot hit a child. In order to get a child to do what they say, and in order to redirect a child's behavior they have to use the love of classroom rules, the love of second chances, and the love of expectations.

As far as the Ten Commandments goes the first four are about loving God, and the last six are about loving one another. There is no way we can function daily without keeping the Ten Commandments. Our love is locked into them.

God has taught us morality. He has put his word into our hearts and minds. It is no longer written on tablets it is now in us. The Book of Proverbs is full of moral instructions God has taught us. All of the Bible is our moral compass from God.

 

[Blues Man]

It never did mean that. We all had it wrong, and needed to learn the real truth about that.

Think about school teachers who cannot hit a child. In order to get a child to do what they say, and in order to redirect a child's behavior they have to use the love of classroom rules, the love of second chances, the love of expectations.

As far as the Ten Commandments goes the first four about loving God, and the last six are about loving others. There is no way we can function daily without keeping the Ten Commandments. Our love is locked into them.

God has taught us morality. He has put his word into our hearts and minds. It is no longer written on tablets it is now in us. The Book of Proverbs is full of moral instructions God has taught us.

So the bible is not the "real truth" The only way to really know what the bible says is that everyone has to be an expert in ancient languages?

And there are still states in this country that allow teachers to hit children and guess what? Those the the most religious states.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2023/08/10/school-paddling-corporal-punishment/

And what are the punishments for breaking any of the 10?

Death. But you're probably going to say that we got that wrong too and death doesn't really mean that you will be killed right?