Muslims Define Their Religion

[Taz]

I wonder if liberals will enjoy the Muslim dominated world they are trying to create.

If liberals were sane, they would do everything they could to oppose Islam.

How many beheadings and honor killings do Muslims have to do before liberals wake up to reality?

Neither of those is "Islamic". See if you can pull your head out of your ass under your own power.

Honor killings and beheadings aren't Islamic? On what planet?

On every planet. Duh.
We've done this myth to death. These are cultural artifacts far older than Islam, Christianism, Hinduism, Sikhism or any other faiths coincident with them, and you can toss female genital mutilation in the same bag. They have nothing to do with any of these religions and everything to do with ancient social structures related to social status. Correlation is not causation.

-- and they're geography-specific anyway.

It's like declaring "the Grand Canyon is in the United States, therefore it's a Christian Canyon".
-- Actually it's more like declaring "therefore all canyons are Christian canyons -- even if they're in India".

The fatal flaw in this thread, from the beginning, has been it starts out claiming "Muslims define their religion" and then immediately proceeds to define it FOR them based on a gaggle of fallacious causation fallacies, none of which are even documented. He's in fact saying "myths and memes that we make up from a distance define their religion".

It's no different from the "Jews are evil / Blacks are rapists / Hispanics are lazy / Irish are drunks / Italians are greasy" myths and memes. Tales told by idiots, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. Proving once again that bigotry is based on wilful ignorance.

Quran- 4:15 If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witness from amongst you against them; if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them. Or God ordain for them some (other) way.

Note: All it has to be is four reliable witnesses that could be any four family members and she is confined to the house until death or until some other way comes along like maybe a family member killing her. Now remember it is not murder if the parent or grandparent does this. It is also an acceptable way according to sura 18: 65 – 81 to obtain a better, “son” or child from Allah.

As for beheadings: Quran 8:12 which says, “When your Lord revealed to the angels: I am with you, therefore make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.”

 

[Pogo]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

 

[Pogo]

Sigh -- yet again for the unwashed Ignoramigentsia who ignored it the last dozen times:

>> The cultural features which lead to honor killings are complex. Honor killings involve violence and fear as a tool of maintaining control. Honor killings are argued to have their origin among nomadic peoples and herdsmen: such populations carry all their valuables with them and risk having them stolen, and do not have proper recourse to law. As a result, inspiring fear, using aggression, and cultivating a reputation for violent revenge in order to protect property is preferred to other behaviors. In societies where there is a weak rule of law, people must build fierce reputations.[22]

In many cultures where honor is of central value, men are sources, or active generators /agents of that honor, while the only effect that women can have on honor is to destroy it.[22] Once the honor is destroyed by the woman, there is a need for immediate revenge to restore it, in order for the family to avoid losing face in the community. As Amnesty International statement notes:

The regime of honour is unforgiving: women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honour by attacking the woman.[23]
​

The relation between social views on female sexuality and honor killings is complex. The way through which women in honor based societies bring dishonor to men is often through their sexual behavior.

Indeed, violence related to female sexual expression has been documented since Ancient Rome, when the pater familias had the right to kill an unmarried sexually active daughter or an adulterous wife.

In medieval Europe, early Jewish law mandated stoning for an adulterous wife and her partner.[22] Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, an anthropology professor at Rhode Island College, writes that an act, or even alleged act, of any female sexual misconduct, upsets the moral order of the culture, and bloodshed is the only way to remove any shame brought by the actions and restore social equilibrium.[24] However, the relation between honor and female sexuality is a complicated one, and some authors argue that it is not women's sexuality per se that is the 'problem', but rather women's self-determination in regard to it, as well as fertility. << (Wiki)
​

Ancient Rome.
Nomadic herdsmen.
Mohammed and linear fucking time.
Hindu. Sikh. Italy.
Not a goddam word there about "religion".

 

[Weatherman2020]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

Yeah, give us a list of who the Lord smiles in the OT and your evidence it's happened in the past 3,000 years.
What a moonbat Islamofascist apologist.

 

[irosie91]

Sigh -- yet again for the unwashed Ignoramigentsia who ignored it the last dozen times:

>> The cultural features which lead to honor killings are complex. Honor killings involve violence and fear as a tool of maintaining control. Honor killings are argued to have their origin among nomadic peoples and herdsmen: such populations carry all their valuables with them and risk having them stolen, and do not have proper recourse to law. As a result, inspiring fear, using aggression, and cultivating a reputation for violent revenge in order to protect property is preferred to other behaviors. In societies where there is a weak rule of law, people must build fierce reputations.[22]

In many cultures where honor is of central value, men are sources, or active generators /agents of that honor, while the only effect that women can have on honor is to destroy it.[22] Once the honor is destroyed by the woman, there is a need for immediate revenge to restore it, in order for the family to avoid losing face in the community. As Amnesty International statement notes:

The regime of honour is unforgiving: women on whom suspicion has fallen are not given an opportunity to defend themselves, and family members have no socially acceptable alternative but to remove the stain on their honour by attacking the woman.[23]
​

The relation between social views on female sexuality and honor killings is complex. The way through which women in honor based societies bring dishonor to men is often through their sexual behavior.

Indeed, violence related to female sexual expression has been documented since Ancient Rome, when the pater familias had the right to kill an unmarried sexually active daughter or an adulterous wife.

In medieval Europe, early Jewish law mandated stoning for an adulterous wife and her partner.[22] Carolyn Fluehr-Lobban, an anthropology professor at Rhode Island College, writes that an act, or even alleged act, of any female sexual misconduct, upsets the moral order of the culture, and bloodshed is the only way to remove any shame brought by the actions and restore social equilibrium.[24] However, the relation between honor and female sexuality is a complicated one, and some authors argue that it is not women's sexuality per se that is the 'problem', but rather women's self-determination in regard to it, as well as fertility. << (Wiki)​

Ancient Rome.
Nomadic herdsmen.
Mohammed and linear fucking time.
Hindu. Sikh. Italy.
Not a goddam word there about "religion".

the issue in CURRENT ISLAMIC LAW------is that "honor killing" does still get a free pass in shariah courts.

what does "medieval" mean in terms of jewish history and law?

 

[Pogo]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

Yeah, give us a list of who the Lord smiles in the OT and your evidence it's happened in the past 3,000 years.
What a moonbat Islamofascist apologist.

You have completely failed to make a point.
Show where honor killing has any "Islamic" roots. Or any roots in any religion at all, ever, anywhere.

Essplain to the class why honor killing is rampant among Hindus and Sikhs... if it's "Islamic".

Describe Mohammed's amazing time machine, where he was able to go back to ancient Rome, centuries before his own birth, to sell the practice.

Rotsa ruck.

 

[irosie91]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

Yeah, give us a list of who the Lord smiles in the OT and your evidence it's happened in the past 3,000 years.
What a moonbat Islamofascist apologist.

You have completely failed to make a point.
Show where honor killing has any "Islamic" roots. Or any roots in any religion at all, ever, anywhere.

Essplain to the class why honor killing is rampant among Hindus and Sikhs... if it's "Islamic".

Describe Mohammed's amazing time machine, where he was able to go back to ancient Rome, centuries before his own birth, to sell the practice.

Rotsa ruck.

honor killing is not exactly rampant amongst Hindus and Sikhs-------Hindus----in particular---
attack CASTE VIOLATIONS ------a practice amongst the less educated. I would not consider
them to be PRECISELY HONOR KILLINGS----------more like retribution for rocking the
universe as Hinduism seems to define the universe. I know about LOTS
of mixed caste marriages in the USA-------they all SURVIVED. From hindu friends I know
about some back there in India--------which survived. -----as for sikh women-------the couples
I know--------well------the husband is the intimidated partner---of course ----a limited sample.
Roman law rendered children and wives the possession of the PATER FAMILIA as well
as his slaves-------and it made murder of that chattel ----LEGAL ------a whole different issue.
Lots of the problems ROMAN "paterfamilia " guys faced involved PATRICIDE------not girls
marrying the wrong guy. An interesting factoid is that a slave killing his owner was considered
a "patricide"-----------but why deal with ANCIENT ROME_------those guys simple aped the greeks

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

How many are in Israel? In Italy that are not done by muslims?

YOU have links to find now to justify the assertion that any other religion practices this kind of barbarity.

You clearly don't get it.

Honor killings and beheadings predate Islam, practiced centuries before the advent of the faith.

Are you so ignorant and stupid as to believe that no honor killings or beheadings occurred in the ME prior to the 8th Century.

 

[Taz]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

This is a thread about Muslims. I just schooled you on the topic.

 

[irosie91]

How many are in Israel? In Italy that are not done by muslims?

YOU have links to find now to justify the assertion that any other religion practices this kind of barbarity.

You clearly don't get it.

Honor killings and beheadings predate Islam, practiced centuries before the advent of the faith.

Are you so ignorant and stupid as to believe that no honor killings or beheadings occurred in the ME prior to the 8th Century.

I never encountered a human being who claimed that HONOR KILLINGS and BEHEADINGS do NOT predate islam---- you got an example of such a claim?. You got a citation for YOUR claim that some people
insist that muslims INVENTED beheading?

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

Yeah, give us a list of who the Lord smiles in the OT and your evidence it's happened in the past 3,000 years.
What a moonbat Islamofascist apologist.

The premise of your thread fails as a composition fallacy – you're attempting, and failing, to condemn an entire religion and its adherents based on the actions of the non-representative few.

Your failed 'argument' is based on bigotry toward Muslims and an unwarranted fear and hatred of Islam.

 

[Pogo]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

This is a thread about Muslims. I just schooled you on the topic.

Did you now.

I missed the part where you essplained why Hindus and Sikhs in India ------ would be following "Islamic" practices.

I never saw the linear time thing, where ancient Rome followed practices purportedly in the Quran -- which wouldn't even be written until several centuries later.

I never heard how "Islam" runs Italy.

Links?

 

[Taz]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

This is a thread about Muslims. I just schooled you on the topic.

Did you now.

I missed the part where you essplained why Hindus and Sikhs in India ------ would be following "Islamic" practices.

I never saw the linear time thing, where ancient Rome followed practices purportedly in the Quran -- which wouldn't even be written until several centuries later.

I never heard how "Islam" runs Italy.

Links?

This isn't a thread about Siks... It's a thread about MUSLIMS. Now get your head out of your ass.

 

[Pogo]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

This is a thread about Muslims. I just schooled you on the topic.

Did you now.

I missed the part where you essplained why Hindus and Sikhs in India ------ would be following "Islamic" practices.

I never saw the linear time thing, where ancient Rome followed practices purportedly in the Quran -- which wouldn't even be written until several centuries later.

I never heard how "Islam" runs Italy.

Links?

This isn't a thread about Siks... It's a thread about MUSLIMS. Now get your head out of your ass.

Then why'd you try to make it about "honor killings"?

Honor killings and beheadings aren't Islamic? On what planet?

Oopsie.

 

[Taz]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

This is a thread about Muslims. I just schooled you on the topic.

Did you now.

I missed the part where you essplained why Hindus and Sikhs in India ------ would be following "Islamic" practices.

I never saw the linear time thing, where ancient Rome followed practices purportedly in the Quran -- which wouldn't even be written until several centuries later.

I never heard how "Islam" runs Italy.

Links?

This isn't a thread about Siks... It's a thread about MUSLIMS. Now get your head out of your ass.

Then why'd you try to make it about "honor killings"?

Honor killings and beheadings aren't Islamic? On what planet?

Oopsie.

I showed you already that honor killings are part of Islam. You're just too stupid to know what's going on.

 

[Pogo]

Point?

How does any of this explain Hindu and Sikh honor killing?
Where in fact does it even refer to honor killing AT ALL?

On paragraph 2 --- want to see a list of who "The Lord" smites in the OT? He's a busy guy.

​

This is a thread about Muslims. I just schooled you on the topic.

Did you now.

I missed the part where you essplained why Hindus and Sikhs in India ------ would be following "Islamic" practices.

I never saw the linear time thing, where ancient Rome followed practices purportedly in the Quran -- which wouldn't even be written until several centuries later.

I never heard how "Islam" runs Italy.

Links?

This isn't a thread about Siks... It's a thread about MUSLIMS. Now get your head out of your ass.

Then why'd you try to make it about "honor killings"?

Honor killings and beheadings aren't Islamic? On what planet?

Oopsie.

I showed you already that honor killings are part of Islam. You're just too stupid to know what's going on.

No, actually you never did that. I challenged you to, and you failed. On the contrary I showed you already that "honor killings" have been a part of Hindus (but not Hinduism), Muslims (but not Islam), Sikhs (but not Sikhism), as well as the Roman Fucking Empire and various civilizations all over the world, long before Islam or even monotheism took hold ANYWHERE.

Yet here you are with your head still buried.

 

[Taz]

This is a thread about Muslims. I just schooled you on the topic.

Did you now.

I missed the part where you essplained why Hindus and Sikhs in India ------ would be following "Islamic" practices.

I never saw the linear time thing, where ancient Rome followed practices purportedly in the Quran -- which wouldn't even be written until several centuries later.

I never heard how "Islam" runs Italy.

Links?

This isn't a thread about Siks... It's a thread about MUSLIMS. Now get your head out of your ass.

Then why'd you try to make it about "honor killings"?

Honor killings and beheadings aren't Islamic? On what planet?

Oopsie.

I showed you already that honor killings are part of Islam. You're just too stupid to know what's going on.

No, actually you never did that. I challenged you to, and you failed. On the contrary I showed you already that "honor killings" have been a part of Hindus (but not Hinduism), Muslims (but not Islam), Sikhs (but not Sikhism), as well as the Roman Fucking Empire and various civilizations all over the world, long before Islam or even monotheism took hold ANYWHERE.
Yet here you are with your head still buried.

Actually, yes I did show you quotes from the koran about honor killings and beheadings, but you're too busy kissing carpets to lift your head out of the guy in front of you's ass to notice.

 

[Pogo]

Did you now.

I missed the part where you essplained why Hindus and Sikhs in India ------ would be following "Islamic" practices.

I never saw the linear time thing, where ancient Rome followed practices purportedly in the Quran -- which wouldn't even be written until several centuries later.

I never heard how "Islam" runs Italy.

Links?

This isn't a thread about Siks... It's a thread about MUSLIMS. Now get your head out of your ass.

Then why'd you try to make it about "honor killings"?

Honor killings and beheadings aren't Islamic? On what planet?

Oopsie.

I showed you already that honor killings are part of Islam. You're just too stupid to know what's going on.

No, actually you never did that. I challenged you to, and you failed. On the contrary I showed you already that "honor killings" have been a part of Hindus (but not Hinduism), Muslims (but not Islam), Sikhs (but not Sikhism), as well as the Roman Fucking Empire and various civilizations all over the world, long before Islam or even monotheism took hold ANYWHERE.
Yet here you are with your head still buried.

Actually, yes I did show you quotes from the koran about honor killings and beheadings, but you're too busy kissing carpets to lift your head out of the guy in front of you's ass to notice.

Actually you trotted out a couple of blurbs (with no link) that I immediately asked "where's any reference to 'honor killings'?" and you had no answer.

Read much?
Apparently not.

So this will zip by you too:

>> The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.45 Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.49 According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".50

Honour-based violence51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

• Adultery
• Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
• Disobeying parents, or
• Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).

Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.53

... In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

... In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93) The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.60

... Traditional misinterpretations of religion have played a role in developing a patriarchal culture that places an emphasis on female chastity and male superiority. The power dynamics of patriarchy reduce women to their reproductive potential, and in the process deny them agency as human beings.

Women are considered to have monetary value and to be the property of male family members. Therefore, men control much of the lives of women, including social relationships. The preservation of a woman's chastity and fidelity, through segregation and control, becomes the responsibility of the men to whom she "belongs." A female's illicit relationship goes against the socio-cultural framework in Pakistan, causing family honour to be tarnished. A man's ability to protect his family's honour is judged by society. As a result, he must demonstrate his power to safeguard his family's honour by killing those who damaged it.

The concept of women as property and honour remains deeply entrenched in the socio-cultural fabric of many countries. As a result, many individuals, including women, support this ritual. This may also be the reason why in some regions of countries where the concept of honour is predominant, legal authorities often ignore the daily occurrences of women being killed by their families.

... (Conclusion)
The twin notions of "honour" and of "shame" and their use as justifications for violence and homicide can be found in many cultures. Honour killings have historical roots in many regions of the world including Latin America, Europe, the Middle East and South Asia. In some Arab and South Asian states, where modern-day incidences of honour killings are more predominant, the practice of honour killings likely originates from ancient Arab culture, with its roots from Pakistan.

However, honour killings are not associated with particular religions or religious practice: they have been recorded across Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities.

---More to ignore at the link ​

So to sum up:

Nation: Pakistan;
Honor Killings: yes
Common religion coincident with HK: Islam

Nation: Indonesia
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: Morocco
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: India
Honor killings: common
Religions coincident with HK: Hinduism (1), Sikhism (2), Islam (3)

Nation: ancient Rome
Honor Kilings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: none

Nations: pre-Columbian Inca, Aztec
Honor killings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: local tradition

Etc etc etc...

 

[Taz]

This isn't a thread about Siks... It's a thread about MUSLIMS. Now get your head out of your ass.

Then why'd you try to make it about "honor killings"?

Honor killings and beheadings aren't Islamic? On what planet?

Oopsie.

I showed you already that honor killings are part of Islam. You're just too stupid to know what's going on.

No, actually you never did that. I challenged you to, and you failed. On the contrary I showed you already that "honor killings" have been a part of Hindus (but not Hinduism), Muslims (but not Islam), Sikhs (but not Sikhism), as well as the Roman Fucking Empire and various civilizations all over the world, long before Islam or even monotheism took hold ANYWHERE.
Yet here you are with your head still buried.

Actually, yes I did show you quotes from the koran about honor killings and beheadings, but you're too busy kissing carpets to lift your head out of the guy in front of you's ass to notice.

Actually you trotted out a couple of blurbs (with no link) that I immediately asked "where's any reference to 'honor killings'?" and you had no answer.

Read much?
Apparently not.

So this will zip by you too:

>> The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.45 Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.49 According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".50

Honour-based violence51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

• Adultery
• Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
• Disobeying parents, or
• Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).

Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.53

... In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

... In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93) The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.60

... Traditional misinterpretations of religion have played a role in developing a patriarchal culture that places an emphasis on female chastity and male superiority. The power dynamics of patriarchy reduce women to their reproductive potential, and in the process deny them agency as human beings.

Women are considered to have monetary value and to be the property of male family members. Therefore, men control much of the lives of women, including social relationships. The preservation of a woman's chastity and fidelity, through segregation and control, becomes the responsibility of the men to whom she "belongs." A female's illicit relationship goes against the socio-cultural framework in Pakistan, causing family honour to be tarnished. A man's ability to protect his family's honour is judged by society. As a result, he must demonstrate his power to safeguard his family's honour by killing those who damaged it.

The concept of women as property and honour remains deeply entrenched in the socio-cultural fabric of many countries. As a result, many individuals, including women, support this ritual. This may also be the reason why in some regions of countries where the concept of honour is predominant, legal authorities often ignore the daily occurrences of women being killed by their families.

... (Conclusion)
The twin notions of "honour" and of "shame" and their use as justifications for violence and homicide can be found in many cultures. Honour killings have historical roots in many regions of the world including Latin America, Europe, the Middle East and South Asia. In some Arab and South Asian states, where modern-day incidences of honour killings are more predominant, the practice of honour killings likely originates from ancient Arab culture, with its roots from Pakistan.

However, honour killings are not associated with particular religions or religious practice: they have been recorded across Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities.

---More to ignore at the link ​

So to sum up:

Nation: Pakistan;
Honor Killings: yes
Common religion coincident with HK: Islam

Nation: Indonesia
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: Morocco
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: India
Honor killings: common
Religions coincident with HK: Hinduism (1), Sikhism (2), Islam (3)

Nation: ancient Rome
Honor Kilings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: none

Nations: pre-Columbian Inca, Aztec
Honor killings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: local tradition

Etc etc etc...

Ya, like I'm going to read such a long winded post, lol.

I quoted from the koran passages that showed honor killings and beheadings.

And I never said such things didn't happen in other cultures... I said this is a thread about muslims, so you can stfu about other people who do such things, or start another thread, you fucking imbecile.

 

[Pogo]

Then why'd you try to make it about "honor killings"?

Oopsie.

I showed you already that honor killings are part of Islam. You're just too stupid to know what's going on.

No, actually you never did that. I challenged you to, and you failed. On the contrary I showed you already that "honor killings" have been a part of Hindus (but not Hinduism), Muslims (but not Islam), Sikhs (but not Sikhism), as well as the Roman Fucking Empire and various civilizations all over the world, long before Islam or even monotheism took hold ANYWHERE.
Yet here you are with your head still buried.

Actually, yes I did show you quotes from the koran about honor killings and beheadings, but you're too busy kissing carpets to lift your head out of the guy in front of you's ass to notice.

Actually you trotted out a couple of blurbs (with no link) that I immediately asked "where's any reference to 'honor killings'?" and you had no answer.

Read much?
Apparently not.

So this will zip by you too:

>> The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.45 Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.49 According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".50

Honour-based violence51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

• Adultery
• Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
• Disobeying parents, or
• Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).

Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.53

... In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

... In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93) The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.60

... Traditional misinterpretations of religion have played a role in developing a patriarchal culture that places an emphasis on female chastity and male superiority. The power dynamics of patriarchy reduce women to their reproductive potential, and in the process deny them agency as human beings.

Women are considered to have monetary value and to be the property of male family members. Therefore, men control much of the lives of women, including social relationships. The preservation of a woman's chastity and fidelity, through segregation and control, becomes the responsibility of the men to whom she "belongs." A female's illicit relationship goes against the socio-cultural framework in Pakistan, causing family honour to be tarnished. A man's ability to protect his family's honour is judged by society. As a result, he must demonstrate his power to safeguard his family's honour by killing those who damaged it.

The concept of women as property and honour remains deeply entrenched in the socio-cultural fabric of many countries. As a result, many individuals, including women, support this ritual. This may also be the reason why in some regions of countries where the concept of honour is predominant, legal authorities often ignore the daily occurrences of women being killed by their families.

... (Conclusion)
The twin notions of "honour" and of "shame" and their use as justifications for violence and homicide can be found in many cultures. Honour killings have historical roots in many regions of the world including Latin America, Europe, the Middle East and South Asia. In some Arab and South Asian states, where modern-day incidences of honour killings are more predominant, the practice of honour killings likely originates from ancient Arab culture, with its roots from Pakistan.

However, honour killings are not associated with particular religions or religious practice: they have been recorded across Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities.

---More to ignore at the link ​

So to sum up:

Nation: Pakistan;
Honor Killings: yes
Common religion coincident with HK: Islam

Nation: Indonesia
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: Morocco
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: India
Honor killings: common
Religions coincident with HK: Hinduism (1), Sikhism (2), Islam (3)

Nation: ancient Rome
Honor Kilings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: none

Nations: pre-Columbian Inca, Aztec
Honor killings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: local tradition

Etc etc etc...

Ya, like I'm going to read such a long winded post, lol.

Of course you're not. That would put you in danger of having to admit you're completely wrong. I don't expect you to man up to that --- it's sitting there for the benefit of other readers. Now EVERYBODY knows you're wrong -- except you. Denialism works like that.

I quoted from the koran passages that showed honor killings and beheadings.

Nope, you did no such thing.

And I never said such things didn't happen in other cultures... I said this is a thread about muslims, so you can stfu about other people who do such things, or start another thread, you fucking imbecile.

And how would these other cultures --- 00ps, you just admitted it -- cultures, not religions... if this is a "Muslim" thing ---- how the fuck did they transmit it to ancient Rome and pre-Columbian Inca and Aztec cultures --- before Islam was ever invented and before outsiders came to South America?

Why are Hindus and Sikhs still doing it? What the fuck do they have to do with "Islam"?

Linear time, Dumbass....

Of course you're not going to read this either, since challenging your own myths is actual work compared to wallowing in your own ignorance.