Muslims Define Their Religion

[Taz]

I showed you already that honor killings are part of Islam. You're just too stupid to know what's going on.

No, actually you never did that. I challenged you to, and you failed. On the contrary I showed you already that "honor killings" have been a part of Hindus (but not Hinduism), Muslims (but not Islam), Sikhs (but not Sikhism), as well as the Roman Fucking Empire and various civilizations all over the world, long before Islam or even monotheism took hold ANYWHERE.
Yet here you are with your head still buried.

Actually, yes I did show you quotes from the koran about honor killings and beheadings, but you're too busy kissing carpets to lift your head out of the guy in front of you's ass to notice.

Actually you trotted out a couple of blurbs (with no link) that I immediately asked "where's any reference to 'honor killings'?" and you had no answer.

Read much?
Apparently not.

So this will zip by you too:

>> The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.45 Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.49 According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".50

Honour-based violence51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

• Adultery
• Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
• Disobeying parents, or
• Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).

Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.53

... In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

... In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93) The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.60

... Traditional misinterpretations of religion have played a role in developing a patriarchal culture that places an emphasis on female chastity and male superiority. The power dynamics of patriarchy reduce women to their reproductive potential, and in the process deny them agency as human beings.

Women are considered to have monetary value and to be the property of male family members. Therefore, men control much of the lives of women, including social relationships. The preservation of a woman's chastity and fidelity, through segregation and control, becomes the responsibility of the men to whom she "belongs." A female's illicit relationship goes against the socio-cultural framework in Pakistan, causing family honour to be tarnished. A man's ability to protect his family's honour is judged by society. As a result, he must demonstrate his power to safeguard his family's honour by killing those who damaged it.

The concept of women as property and honour remains deeply entrenched in the socio-cultural fabric of many countries. As a result, many individuals, including women, support this ritual. This may also be the reason why in some regions of countries where the concept of honour is predominant, legal authorities often ignore the daily occurrences of women being killed by their families.

... (Conclusion)
The twin notions of "honour" and of "shame" and their use as justifications for violence and homicide can be found in many cultures. Honour killings have historical roots in many regions of the world including Latin America, Europe, the Middle East and South Asia. In some Arab and South Asian states, where modern-day incidences of honour killings are more predominant, the practice of honour killings likely originates from ancient Arab culture, with its roots from Pakistan.

However, honour killings are not associated with particular religions or religious practice: they have been recorded across Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities.

---More to ignore at the link ​

So to sum up:

Nation: Pakistan;
Honor Killings: yes
Common religion coincident with HK: Islam

Nation: Indonesia
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: Morocco
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: India
Honor killings: common
Religions coincident with HK: Hinduism (1), Sikhism (2), Islam (3)

Nation: ancient Rome
Honor Kilings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: none

Nations: pre-Columbian Inca, Aztec
Honor killings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: local tradition

Etc etc etc...

Ya, like I'm going to read such a long winded post, lol.

Of course you're not. That would put you in danger of having to admit you're completely wrong. I don't expect you to man up to that --- it's sitting there for the benefit of other readers. Now EVERYBODY knows you're wrong -- except you. Denialism works like that.

I quoted from the koran passages that showed honor killings and beheadings.

Nope, you did no such thing.

And I never said such things didn't happen in other cultures... I said this is a thread about muslims, so you can stfu about other people who do such things, or start another thread, you fucking imbecile.

And how would these other cultures --- 00ps, you just admitted it -- cultures, not religions... if this is a "Muslim" thing ---- how the fuck did they transmit it to ancient Rome and pre-Columbian Inca and Aztec cultures --- before Islam was ever invented and before outsiders came to South America?

Why are Hindus and Sikhs still doing it? What the fuck do they have to do with "Islam"?

Linear time, Dumbass....

Of course you're not going to read this either, since challenging your own myths is actual work compared to wallowing in your own ignorance.

If you want to discuss why Hindus and Sikhs are doing it, then start another thread, fuckwad. This one's about Muslims.

Re-read my post, I quoted the koran and even put the number of the verse.

 

[Pogo]

No, actually you never did that. I challenged you to, and you failed. On the contrary I showed you already that "honor killings" have been a part of Hindus (but not Hinduism), Muslims (but not Islam), Sikhs (but not Sikhism), as well as the Roman Fucking Empire and various civilizations all over the world, long before Islam or even monotheism took hold ANYWHERE.
Yet here you are with your head still buried.

Actually, yes I did show you quotes from the koran about honor killings and beheadings, but you're too busy kissing carpets to lift your head out of the guy in front of you's ass to notice.

Actually you trotted out a couple of blurbs (with no link) that I immediately asked "where's any reference to 'honor killings'?" and you had no answer.

Read much?
Apparently not.

So this will zip by you too:

>> The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.45 Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.49 According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".50

Honour-based violence51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

• Adultery
• Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
• Disobeying parents, or
• Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).

Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.53

... In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

... In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93) The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.60

... Traditional misinterpretations of religion have played a role in developing a patriarchal culture that places an emphasis on female chastity and male superiority. The power dynamics of patriarchy reduce women to their reproductive potential, and in the process deny them agency as human beings.

Women are considered to have monetary value and to be the property of male family members. Therefore, men control much of the lives of women, including social relationships. The preservation of a woman's chastity and fidelity, through segregation and control, becomes the responsibility of the men to whom she "belongs." A female's illicit relationship goes against the socio-cultural framework in Pakistan, causing family honour to be tarnished. A man's ability to protect his family's honour is judged by society. As a result, he must demonstrate his power to safeguard his family's honour by killing those who damaged it.

The concept of women as property and honour remains deeply entrenched in the socio-cultural fabric of many countries. As a result, many individuals, including women, support this ritual. This may also be the reason why in some regions of countries where the concept of honour is predominant, legal authorities often ignore the daily occurrences of women being killed by their families.

... (Conclusion)
The twin notions of "honour" and of "shame" and their use as justifications for violence and homicide can be found in many cultures. Honour killings have historical roots in many regions of the world including Latin America, Europe, the Middle East and South Asia. In some Arab and South Asian states, where modern-day incidences of honour killings are more predominant, the practice of honour killings likely originates from ancient Arab culture, with its roots from Pakistan.

However, honour killings are not associated with particular religions or religious practice: they have been recorded across Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities.

---More to ignore at the link ​

So to sum up:

Nation: Pakistan;
Honor Killings: yes
Common religion coincident with HK: Islam

Nation: Indonesia
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: Morocco
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: India
Honor killings: common
Religions coincident with HK: Hinduism (1), Sikhism (2), Islam (3)

Nation: ancient Rome
Honor Kilings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: none

Nations: pre-Columbian Inca, Aztec
Honor killings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: local tradition

Etc etc etc...

Ya, like I'm going to read such a long winded post, lol.

Of course you're not. That would put you in danger of having to admit you're completely wrong. I don't expect you to man up to that --- it's sitting there for the benefit of other readers. Now EVERYBODY knows you're wrong -- except you. Denialism works like that.

I quoted from the koran passages that showed honor killings and beheadings.

Nope, you did no such thing.

And I never said such things didn't happen in other cultures... I said this is a thread about muslims, so you can stfu about other people who do such things, or start another thread, you fucking imbecile.

And how would these other cultures --- 00ps, you just admitted it -- cultures, not religions... if this is a "Muslim" thing ---- how the fuck did they transmit it to ancient Rome and pre-Columbian Inca and Aztec cultures --- before Islam was ever invented and before outsiders came to South America?

Why are Hindus and Sikhs still doing it? What the fuck do they have to do with "Islam"?

Linear time, Dumbass....

Of course you're not going to read this either, since challenging your own myths is actual work compared to wallowing in your own ignorance.

If you want to discuss why Hindus and Sikhs are doing it, then start another thread, fuckwad. This one's about Muslims.

Re-read my post, I quoted the koran and even put the number of the verse.

Proving once again that you can't address that question -- among many.

"If Hindus and Sikhs are doing it --- then how the fuck is it 'Muslim'?"
Ditto ancient Rome.... Incas/Aztecs.... Romeo and Juliet.... etc etc etc....

You lose.

 

[Taz]

Actually, yes I did show you quotes from the koran about honor killings and beheadings, but you're too busy kissing carpets to lift your head out of the guy in front of you's ass to notice.

Actually you trotted out a couple of blurbs (with no link) that I immediately asked "where's any reference to 'honor killings'?" and you had no answer.

Read much?
Apparently not.

So this will zip by you too:

>> The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.45 Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.49 According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".50

Honour-based violence51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

• Adultery
• Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
• Disobeying parents, or
• Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).

Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.53

... In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

... In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93) The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.60

... Traditional misinterpretations of religion have played a role in developing a patriarchal culture that places an emphasis on female chastity and male superiority. The power dynamics of patriarchy reduce women to their reproductive potential, and in the process deny them agency as human beings.

Women are considered to have monetary value and to be the property of male family members. Therefore, men control much of the lives of women, including social relationships. The preservation of a woman's chastity and fidelity, through segregation and control, becomes the responsibility of the men to whom she "belongs." A female's illicit relationship goes against the socio-cultural framework in Pakistan, causing family honour to be tarnished. A man's ability to protect his family's honour is judged by society. As a result, he must demonstrate his power to safeguard his family's honour by killing those who damaged it.

The concept of women as property and honour remains deeply entrenched in the socio-cultural fabric of many countries. As a result, many individuals, including women, support this ritual. This may also be the reason why in some regions of countries where the concept of honour is predominant, legal authorities often ignore the daily occurrences of women being killed by their families.

... (Conclusion)
The twin notions of "honour" and of "shame" and their use as justifications for violence and homicide can be found in many cultures. Honour killings have historical roots in many regions of the world including Latin America, Europe, the Middle East and South Asia. In some Arab and South Asian states, where modern-day incidences of honour killings are more predominant, the practice of honour killings likely originates from ancient Arab culture, with its roots from Pakistan.

However, honour killings are not associated with particular religions or religious practice: they have been recorded across Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities.

---More to ignore at the link ​

So to sum up:

Nation: Pakistan;
Honor Killings: yes
Common religion coincident with HK: Islam

Nation: Indonesia
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: Morocco
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: India
Honor killings: common
Religions coincident with HK: Hinduism (1), Sikhism (2), Islam (3)

Nation: ancient Rome
Honor Kilings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: none

Nations: pre-Columbian Inca, Aztec
Honor killings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: local tradition

Etc etc etc...

Ya, like I'm going to read such a long winded post, lol.

Of course you're not. That would put you in danger of having to admit you're completely wrong. I don't expect you to man up to that --- it's sitting there for the benefit of other readers. Now EVERYBODY knows you're wrong -- except you. Denialism works like that.

I quoted from the koran passages that showed honor killings and beheadings.

Nope, you did no such thing.

And I never said such things didn't happen in other cultures... I said this is a thread about muslims, so you can stfu about other people who do such things, or start another thread, you fucking imbecile.

And how would these other cultures --- 00ps, you just admitted it -- cultures, not religions... if this is a "Muslim" thing ---- how the fuck did they transmit it to ancient Rome and pre-Columbian Inca and Aztec cultures --- before Islam was ever invented and before outsiders came to South America?

Why are Hindus and Sikhs still doing it? What the fuck do they have to do with "Islam"?

Linear time, Dumbass....

Of course you're not going to read this either, since challenging your own myths is actual work compared to wallowing in your own ignorance.

If you want to discuss why Hindus and Sikhs are doing it, then start another thread, fuckwad. This one's about Muslims.

Re-read my post, I quoted the koran and even put the number of the verse.

Proving once again that you can't address that question -- among many.

"If Hindus and Sikhs are doing it --- then how the fuck is it 'Muslim'?"
Ditto ancient Rome.... Incas/Aztecs.... Romeo and Juliet.... etc etc etc....

You lose.

Lots of countries play baseball, but baseball is still American. Like apple pie, everyone eats it,... oh never mind.

 

[Pogo]

Actually you trotted out a couple of blurbs (with no link) that I immediately asked "where's any reference to 'honor killings'?" and you had no answer.

Read much?
Apparently not.

So this will zip by you too:

>> The notions of honour and shame and their use as justification for violence and killing is not unique to any one culture or religion.45 Indeed, honour and honour-based violence are reflected in historical events in many countries, and in many works of literature.

For instance, duelling was a key practice through which claims of masculine honour were made, maintained and understood in Western societies.46 In France, Le Cid told the story of a man insulted by a slap across the face, who asked his son to defend his honour in a duel. In Canada, duelling continued into the late 1800s.47

In Britain, for example, the fifth wife of Henry VIII was beheaded based on allegations of adultery. In British literature, Shakespeare's Desdemona was killed over allegations of infidelity, and Romeo and Juliet tracked an ancient family feud over honour. King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table centred on notions of honour. The premise of the Three Musketeers was the King's guards avenging the betrayal of the king by Cardinal Richelieu.

Similar notions can be traced in Latin American societies. In Brazil and parts of Latin America, machismo is often described as a code of honour. In the early times of Peru, the laws of the Incas permitted husbands to starve their wives to death as punishment for committing an adulterous act. Aztec laws resulted in death by stoning or strangulation for female adultery during the early times of Mexico.48

Several great wars started over honour. Likely the clearest of these was the Trojan War, which began over the honour of Helen. Her father required that all her suitors defend his choice for her marriage, thereby setting all of Greece against Troy.

In Ancient Roman times, the senior male within a household retained the right to kill a related woman if she was engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital relations.49 According to Blackstone, the Roman law justified homicide "when committed in defence of the chastity either of oneself or relations".50

Honour-based violence51 can be between men only, and sometimes involves women as collaborators. However, it appears to be perpetrated almost exclusively by men against women and children whom they consider to "belong" to them. It generally appears in the following sets of circumstances:

• Adultery
• Pre-marital sex or having a child out of wedlock (although honour may be restored through a "shotgun wedding")
• Disobeying parents, or
• Patriotism/Personal Insult/Defaulting on Monetary Debts (typically between men).

Honour is expressed in many other terms, including "vengeance," "avenging," "saving face," etc. However, it is notable that honour-based killings in most Arab and South Asian countries are perpetrated against daughters, sisters or nieces and not against wives. The reason may relate to the distinction between dishonouring as "collective" injury as opposed to dishonouring as "individual" injury.52 In community-based honour systems, a husband's feelings of jealousy, which could be classified as individual hurt pride or honour, are not generally viewed as sufficient grounds for murder. However, the transgressions of a wife can cause a collective injury to her family of origin, which is ultimately responsible for punishing her.53

... In many Arab countries, the practice of honour killing dates back to pre-Islamic times when Arab settlers occupied a region adjacent to Sindh, known as Baluchistan (in Pakistan).57 These Arab settlers had patriarchal traditions such as live burials of newly born daughters. Such traditions trace back to the earliest historic times of Ancient Babylon, where the predominant view was that a woman's virginity belonged to her family.58

There is no mention of honour killing in the Quran or Hadiths. Honour killing, in Islamic definitions, refers specifically to extra-legal punishment by the family against a woman, and is forbidden by the Sharia (Islamic law). Religious authorities disagree with extra punishments such as honour killing and prohibit it, so the practice of it is a cultural and not a religious issue. However, since Islam has influence over vast numbers of Muslims in many countries and from many cultures, some use Islam to justify honour killing even though there is no support for honour killing in Islam.

... In Indonesia, generally believed to be the country with the largest Muslim population, honour killings are unknown, as is the case in parts of West Africa with majority-Muslim populations and in many other Islamic countries such as Bangladesh. According to Sheikh Atiyyah Saqr, former head of the al-Azhar University Fatwa Committee:

Like all other religions, Islam strictly prohibits murder and killing without legal justification. Allah, Most High, says, "Whoso slayeth a believer of set purpose, his reward is Hell for ever. Allah is wroth against him and He hath cursed him and prepared for him an awful doom." (An-Nisa': 93) The so-called "honor killing" is based on ignorance and disregard of morals and laws, which cannot be abolished except by disciplinary punishments.60

... Traditional misinterpretations of religion have played a role in developing a patriarchal culture that places an emphasis on female chastity and male superiority. The power dynamics of patriarchy reduce women to their reproductive potential, and in the process deny them agency as human beings.

Women are considered to have monetary value and to be the property of male family members. Therefore, men control much of the lives of women, including social relationships. The preservation of a woman's chastity and fidelity, through segregation and control, becomes the responsibility of the men to whom she "belongs." A female's illicit relationship goes against the socio-cultural framework in Pakistan, causing family honour to be tarnished. A man's ability to protect his family's honour is judged by society. As a result, he must demonstrate his power to safeguard his family's honour by killing those who damaged it.

The concept of women as property and honour remains deeply entrenched in the socio-cultural fabric of many countries. As a result, many individuals, including women, support this ritual. This may also be the reason why in some regions of countries where the concept of honour is predominant, legal authorities often ignore the daily occurrences of women being killed by their families.

... (Conclusion)
The twin notions of "honour" and of "shame" and their use as justifications for violence and homicide can be found in many cultures. Honour killings have historical roots in many regions of the world including Latin America, Europe, the Middle East and South Asia. In some Arab and South Asian states, where modern-day incidences of honour killings are more predominant, the practice of honour killings likely originates from ancient Arab culture, with its roots from Pakistan.

However, honour killings are not associated with particular religions or religious practice: they have been recorded across Christian, Jewish, Sikh, Hindu and Muslim communities.

---More to ignore at the link ​

So to sum up:

Nation: Pakistan;
Honor Killings: yes
Common religion coincident with HK: Islam

Nation: Indonesia
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: Morocco
Honor killings: unknown
Common religion coincident with nonincidence of HK: Islam

Nation: India
Honor killings: common
Religions coincident with HK: Hinduism (1), Sikhism (2), Islam (3)

Nation: ancient Rome
Honor Kilings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: none

Nations: pre-Columbian Inca, Aztec
Honor killings: yes
Religion coincident with HK: local tradition

Etc etc etc...

Ya, like I'm going to read such a long winded post, lol.

Of course you're not. That would put you in danger of having to admit you're completely wrong. I don't expect you to man up to that --- it's sitting there for the benefit of other readers. Now EVERYBODY knows you're wrong -- except you. Denialism works like that.

I quoted from the koran passages that showed honor killings and beheadings.

Nope, you did no such thing.

And I never said such things didn't happen in other cultures... I said this is a thread about muslims, so you can stfu about other people who do such things, or start another thread, you fucking imbecile.

And how would these other cultures --- 00ps, you just admitted it -- cultures, not religions... if this is a "Muslim" thing ---- how the fuck did they transmit it to ancient Rome and pre-Columbian Inca and Aztec cultures --- before Islam was ever invented and before outsiders came to South America?

Why are Hindus and Sikhs still doing it? What the fuck do they have to do with "Islam"?

Linear time, Dumbass....

Of course you're not going to read this either, since challenging your own myths is actual work compared to wallowing in your own ignorance.

If you want to discuss why Hindus and Sikhs are doing it, then start another thread, fuckwad. This one's about Muslims.

Re-read my post, I quoted the koran and even put the number of the verse.

Proving once again that you can't address that question -- among many.

"If Hindus and Sikhs are doing it --- then how the fuck is it 'Muslim'?"
Ditto ancient Rome.... Incas/Aztecs.... Romeo and Juliet.... etc etc etc....

You lose.

Lots of countries play baseball, but baseball is still American. Like apple pie, everyone eats it,... oh never mind.

And did these countries play baseball before it existed?

Like say... ancient Rome?

More to the point is this:
So .... baseball being "American" and all ---- that makes it a "Christian" sport, right?
Or would you say "Judeo-Christian" so you can have a Sandy Koufax? That should cover it, right?

Spoiler: Oops

Japan/Korea

 

[Taz]

Ya, like I'm going to read such a long winded post, lol.

Of course you're not. That would put you in danger of having to admit you're completely wrong. I don't expect you to man up to that --- it's sitting there for the benefit of other readers. Now EVERYBODY knows you're wrong -- except you. Denialism works like that.

I quoted from the koran passages that showed honor killings and beheadings.

Nope, you did no such thing.

And I never said such things didn't happen in other cultures... I said this is a thread about muslims, so you can stfu about other people who do such things, or start another thread, you fucking imbecile.

And how would these other cultures --- 00ps, you just admitted it -- cultures, not religions... if this is a "Muslim" thing ---- how the fuck did they transmit it to ancient Rome and pre-Columbian Inca and Aztec cultures --- before Islam was ever invented and before outsiders came to South America?

Why are Hindus and Sikhs still doing it? What the fuck do they have to do with "Islam"?

Linear time, Dumbass....

Of course you're not going to read this either, since challenging your own myths is actual work compared to wallowing in your own ignorance.

If you want to discuss why Hindus and Sikhs are doing it, then start another thread, fuckwad. This one's about Muslims.

Re-read my post, I quoted the koran and even put the number of the verse.

Proving once again that you can't address that question -- among many.

"If Hindus and Sikhs are doing it --- then how the fuck is it 'Muslim'?"
Ditto ancient Rome.... Incas/Aztecs.... Romeo and Juliet.... etc etc etc....

You lose.

Lots of countries play baseball, but baseball is still American. Like apple pie, everyone eats it,... oh never mind.

And did these countries play baseball before it existed?

Like say... ancient Rome?

More to the point is this:
So .... baseball being "American" and all ---- that makes it a "Christian" sport, right?
Or would you say "Judeo-Christian" so you can have a Sandy Koufax? That should cover it, right?

Spoiler: Oops

Japan/Korea

Reminder: we're talking about Muslims in this thread. Or at least we're trying to!

 

[Pogo]

Of course you're not. That would put you in danger of having to admit you're completely wrong. I don't expect you to man up to that --- it's sitting there for the benefit of other readers. Now EVERYBODY knows you're wrong -- except you. Denialism works like that.

Nope, you did no such thing.

And how would these other cultures --- 00ps, you just admitted it -- cultures, not religions... if this is a "Muslim" thing ---- how the fuck did they transmit it to ancient Rome and pre-Columbian Inca and Aztec cultures --- before Islam was ever invented and before outsiders came to South America?

Why are Hindus and Sikhs still doing it? What the fuck do they have to do with "Islam"?

Linear time, Dumbass....

Of course you're not going to read this either, since challenging your own myths is actual work compared to wallowing in your own ignorance.

If you want to discuss why Hindus and Sikhs are doing it, then start another thread, fuckwad. This one's about Muslims.

Re-read my post, I quoted the koran and even put the number of the verse.

Proving once again that you can't address that question -- among many.

"If Hindus and Sikhs are doing it --- then how the fuck is it 'Muslim'?"
Ditto ancient Rome.... Incas/Aztecs.... Romeo and Juliet.... etc etc etc....

You lose.

Lots of countries play baseball, but baseball is still American. Like apple pie, everyone eats it,... oh never mind.

And did these countries play baseball before it existed?

Like say... ancient Rome?

More to the point is this:
So .... baseball being "American" and all ---- that makes it a "Christian" sport, right?
Or would you say "Judeo-Christian" so you can have a Sandy Koufax? That should cover it, right?

Spoiler: Oops

Japan/Korea

Reminder: we're talking about Muslims in this thread. Or at least we're trying to!

Then why are you taking it off topic with "honor killing"?

Kind of an ironic ploy given the TITLE -- is it not?

 

[Taz]

If you want to discuss why Hindus and Sikhs are doing it, then start another thread, fuckwad. This one's about Muslims.

Re-read my post, I quoted the koran and even put the number of the verse.

Proving once again that you can't address that question -- among many.

"If Hindus and Sikhs are doing it --- then how the fuck is it 'Muslim'?"
Ditto ancient Rome.... Incas/Aztecs.... Romeo and Juliet.... etc etc etc....

You lose.

Lots of countries play baseball, but baseball is still American. Like apple pie, everyone eats it,... oh never mind.

And did these countries play baseball before it existed?

Like say... ancient Rome?

More to the point is this:
So .... baseball being "American" and all ---- that makes it a "Christian" sport, right?
Or would you say "Judeo-Christian" so you can have a Sandy Koufax? That should cover it, right?

Spoiler: Oops

Japan/Korea

Reminder: we're talking about Muslims in this thread. Or at least we're trying to!

Then why are you taking it off topic with "honor killing"?

Kind of an ironic ploy given the TITLE -- is it not?

Muslims define their religion with honor killings and beheadings. You might not, but they, and I, don't give a fuck.

 

[Pogo]

Proving once again that you can't address that question -- among many.

"If Hindus and Sikhs are doing it --- then how the fuck is it 'Muslim'?"
Ditto ancient Rome.... Incas/Aztecs.... Romeo and Juliet.... etc etc etc....

You lose.

Lots of countries play baseball, but baseball is still American. Like apple pie, everyone eats it,... oh never mind.

And did these countries play baseball before it existed?

Like say... ancient Rome?

More to the point is this:
So .... baseball being "American" and all ---- that makes it a "Christian" sport, right?
Or would you say "Judeo-Christian" so you can have a Sandy Koufax? That should cover it, right?

Spoiler: Oops

Japan/Korea

Reminder: we're talking about Muslims in this thread. Or at least we're trying to!

Then why are you taking it off topic with "honor killing"?

Kind of an ironic ploy given the TITLE -- is it not?

Muslims define their religion with honor killings and beheadings. You might not, but they, and I, don't give a fuck.

Also kind of ironic, since their religion prohibits it.

Disclaimer: the above only applies in the Real World (q.v.)

 

[Taz]

Lots of countries play baseball, but baseball is still American. Like apple pie, everyone eats it,... oh never mind.

And did these countries play baseball before it existed?

Like say... ancient Rome?

More to the point is this:
So .... baseball being "American" and all ---- that makes it a "Christian" sport, right?
Or would you say "Judeo-Christian" so you can have a Sandy Koufax? That should cover it, right?

Spoiler: Oops

Japan/Korea

Reminder: we're talking about Muslims in this thread. Or at least we're trying to!

Then why are you taking it off topic with "honor killing"?

Kind of an ironic ploy given the TITLE -- is it not?

Muslims define their religion with honor killings and beheadings. You might not, but they, and I, don't give a fuck.

Also kind of ironic, since their religion prohibits it.

Disclaimer: the above only applies in the Real World (q.v.)

... on the planet called Pogo.