NAFTA most popular in Canada by a wide margin. Of course, we stole Americas jobs

[shockedcanadian]

The article is about the Chapter 19 provisions which deals with the grievance process outside of American courts, Trump seems to not want this provision in. Considering how Canada exploits American companies and workers without any accountability, I imagine they think it's just a loss of sovereignty.

This Obscure Nafta Chapter Could Be Canada’s Deal-Breaker Again

Here is the key note of the article:

A Pew Research survey found 76 per cent of Canadian respondents felt the pact has benefited their country, versus 60 per cent of Mexicans and 51 per cent of Americans.
...................................................................

Well of course it benefited our economy as police agencies don't operate here with the same Constitutional requirements as they do in America. CSIS, RCMP and provincial surrogates can enter and do enter American corporate headquarter and manufacturing for de facto control, espionage purposes and nepotism for their families. This is how Canada operates as a means to take American jobs, undermine American influence and even spread anti-Americanism through the workforce and nation. One of our biggest exports is terror and spying, our biggest target being America.

The way to negotiate NAFTA would be to come forward and study how many Canadian companies have come to America and employed Americans versus vice versa. Provide REAL job numbers, not broad assertions that are in accurate. Such as "x amounts of jobs are in part of fully dependent on NAFTA". That's complete bunk, as it suggests a $1 profit on a product sold to Canadians in small numbers is somehow equal to a Billion in profit in the many thousands of products sold in America. It's the usual "America Last" campaign by people fudging numbers and playing semantics with polls and research to give the appearance that America would be lost without NAFTA as U.S workers jobs are shipped away.

If this is true, how and why was America the global leader for 100 years prior to NAFTA? With a much stronger middle class to boot. Canada is not willing to change, nor accountable, so something has to give.

 

[Toro]

hilarious thread

 

[shockedcanadian]

hilarious thread

Is it? Hilarious in that America actually allows Canada to get away with this, or hilarious for the American worker who woke up one morning and found out his headquarters was being shipped to Canada?

76% Of Canadians vs 51% of Americans. Why such a discrepancy?

 

[usmbguest5318]

the Chapter 19 provisions which deals with the grievance process outside of American courts, Trump seems to not want this provision in.

How did you discover that? Throughout the 2016 campaign, given his gabbling about how bad a treaty NAFTA in his mind is, I was looking for Trump to identify specific provisions of NAFTA that he thought needed to be removed or altered. He didn't identify one.

 

[usmbguest5318]

A Pew Research survey found 76 per cent of Canadian respondents felt the pact has benefited their country, versus 60 per cent of Mexicans and 51 per cent of Americans.

I wonder what share of Canadians, Mexicans and Americans have actually read the NAFTA agreement. I'd wager money that in spite of all his prattling about it, Trump hasn't read the whole thing.

It is no crime to be ignorant of [NAFTA]. is, after all, a specialized [matter]. But it is totally irresponsible to have a loud and vociferous opinion on [it] while remaining in this state of ignorance.​

Reading the document is the best place from which to start the process of analyzing and identifying which of its provisions, and what overall, are flawed. And yet, we've had near total radio-silence on what Trump wants specifically to alter about the treaty. We've not, on the other hand, had such quietude about it being severely flawed.

If one thinks the treaty is so flawed, what provisions are flawed, how so, why and what change(s) to them does one propose?

 

[shockedcanadian]

the Chapter 19 provisions which deals with the grievance process outside of American courts, Trump seems to not want this provision in.

How did you discover that? Throughout the 2016 campaign, given his gabbling about how bad a treaty NAFTA in his mind is, I was looking for Trump to identify specific provisions of NAFTA that he thought needed to be removed or altered. He didn't identify one.

Forgot the link in the original message:

This Obscure Nafta Chapter Could Be Canada’s Deal-Breaker Again

Fast forward 30 years, and Justin Trudeau, the current prime minister, is arriving at the same crossroads as his predecessor. The U.S. confirmed last week that among its top objectives in upcoming negotiations on the North American Free Trade Agreement -- which superseded the FTA in 1994 -- is the elimination of the Chapter 19 dispute-resolution mechanism that Mulroney went to such lengths to preserve.
........................................................................


Nafta’s Chapter 19 dispute-resolution mechanism allows review by independent, binational panels -- instead of judicial review by domestic courts -- in anti-dumping and countervailing duty cases. Since Nafta came into force, Canada has been involved in about 73 panels over items such as cattle, magnesium, hot-rolled steel, color-picture tubes, greenhouse tomatoes and super-calendered paper, according to the website of the Nafta Secretariat, which is responsible for managing Chapter 19 proceedings.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Forgot the link in the original message:

This Obscure Nafta Chapter Could Be Canada’s Deal-Breaker Again

TY

 

[usmbguest5318]

Chapter 19 contains dispute settlement provisions whereby disputes are resolved by independent, binational panels -- instead of judicial review by domestic courts -- in anti-dumping and countervailing duty cases. I'm dying to know what American workers feel they are at a loss because of a NAFTA Chapter 19 related ruling....

Oh, there's another of the "brilliant" negotiating skills Trump bragged about. NOT!

The U.S. confirmed last week that among its top objectives in upcoming negotiations on the North American Free Trade Agreement [...] But given that in the last decade Canada has only initiated three cases under the provision, Robert Wolfe, professor emeritus at Queen University’s School of Policy Studies in Kingston, Ontario, questions whether Chapter 19 is essential. Wolfe suggests Canada may want to consider bluffing, and when push comes to shove, give in on Chapter 19 in exchange for something better
-- Source

Before the negotiations have even begun, the U.S. has given Canada a extra "card" to play. Yeah, that's good negotiating strategy. LOL

As the article rightly notes:

Cross-border supply chains are much more prevalent, and a company that is part of such an arrangement would be shooting itself in the foot by taking a trade-remedy action against its partner. He cites the motor vehicle industry, saying “you’re not going to see anti-dumping between Canada and the U.S.,” because the bits and pieces of the cars go back and forth over the border so many times.

Then there is the matter that the U.S.' largest export trading partner is Canada. And what country is number two? Mexico. Who the hell pisses off the countries to which it sells the greatest quantities of its producers goods/services? Yet that's exactly where Trump is taking us.

I bet someone thinks that too is a good tack. It's not. Why not? Because the U.S. is rapidly shifting its economic base from goods production/sales to human capital, intellectual capital, sales and service delivery, aka professional services. It's absurd that we'd risk selling fewer of our high-cost-of-production tangible goods to the unfavorable-exchange-rate buyers who are also the biggest consumers (by a factor of two or more) than we do to our next biggest export market consumer which has an even worse exchange rate against the dollar.

The problem isn't NAFTA. The problem, at least for American workers, is that too many of them have refrained from and continue refusing to get off their duffs and obtain the skills needed to thrive in the fields where the U.S. economy is headed. In economic parlance, the problem is that too many Americans are ignoring what has become America's national comparative advantage; too many are unwilling to be a part of "what's here and coming." Instead, they want to be a part of what was.

Considering how Canada exploits American companies and workers without any accountability, I imagine they think it's just a loss of sovereignty.

"They" who?

 

[shockedcanadian]

Chapter 19 contains dispute settlement provisions whereby disputes are resolved by independent, binational panels -- instead of judicial review by domestic courts -- in anti-dumping and countervailing duty cases. I'm dying to know what American workers feel they are at a loss because of a NAFTA Chapter 19 related ruling....

Oh, there's another of the "brilliant" negotiating skills Trump bragged about. NOT!

The U.S. confirmed last week that among its top objectives in upcoming negotiations on the North American Free Trade Agreement [...] But given that in the last decade Canada has only initiated three cases under the provision, Robert Wolfe, professor emeritus at Queen University’s School of Policy Studies in Kingston, Ontario, questions whether Chapter 19 is essential. Wolfe suggests Canada may want to consider bluffing, and when push comes to shove, give in on Chapter 19 in exchange for something better
-- Source

Before the negotiations have even begun, the U.S. has given Canada a extra "card" to play. Yeah, that's good negotiating strategy. LOL

As the article rightly notes:

Cross-border supply chains are much more prevalent, and a company that is part of such an arrangement would be shooting itself in the foot by taking a trade-remedy action against its partner. He cites the motor vehicle industry, saying “you’re not going to see anti-dumping between Canada and the U.S.,” because the bits and pieces of the cars go back and forth over the border so many times.

Then there is the matter that the U.S.' largest export trading partner is Canada. And what country is number two? Mexico. Who the hell pisses off the countries to which it sells the greatest quantities of its producers goods/services? Yet that's exactly where Trump is taking us.

I bet someone thinks that too is a good tack. It's not. Why not? Because the U.S. is rapidly shifting its economic base from goods production/sales to human capital, intellectual capital, sales and service delivery, aka professional services. It's absurd that we'd risk selling fewer of our high-cost-of-production tangible goods to the unfavorable-exchange-rate buyers who are also the biggest consumers (by a factor of two or more) than we do to our next biggest export market consumer which has an even worse exchange rate against the dollar.

The problem isn't NAFTA. The problem, at least for American workers, is that too many of them have refrained from and continue refusing to get off their duffs and obtain the skills needed to thrive in the fields where the U.S. economy is headed. In economic parlance, the problem is that too many Americans are ignoring what has become America's national comparative advantage; too many are unwilling to be a part of "what's here and coming." Instead, they want to be a part of what was.

Considering how Canada exploits American companies and workers without any accountability, I imagine they think it's just a loss of sovereignty.

"They" who?

LOL at training. 4000 jobs in Ontario were shipped here from GM. Some of these guys are making $40+ an hour to work in manufacturing. I have met some of these people. They are low skill, low work ethic. Why is GM employing them in Ontario instead of America? Because $200M was given from the province and matched by the feds to the tune of $200M. It has nothing to do with skillset or work ethic.

If you are going to tell me that there are people in Michigan or Ohio who wouldn't stand on the line at GM and have a career and pension than you are insane. Work ethic or desire for a career has nothing to do with it, corporate leaders selling out American workers and capitalism, for socialism and handouts is. Of course it is not sustainable long term as cross border trade and business should be based on national skills, talents and contributions.

Canada will NEVER lead in these areas, you know why? The government apparatus which interferes in the free market and those who do have ambition and talents will NEVER surpass the greater marketplace, but, they in fact dominate covertly in our centralized system. Almost by definition, government employees seek out high pay, low effort positions and careers. These are the same forces interfering in American corporations. Stealing your jobs.

When I say "they think", I mean the current administration who are better versed on these abuses than the average worker.