Not supporting the war BUT supporting our troops

[no1tovote4]

This thread exploded in my absence.


Going back to the start of things, is it possible to support the troops but question the strategy? I think the outcome of the war in Iraq will be a good thing for the country, and as such I'm not as concerned with how we were told it was necesarry or not. The ends, I hope, will justify the means.

I have problems now with the way things are being run. I don't think we have enough troops over there to handle the situation. The terrorist loyalists who resist defeat need to be overwhelmed, and there aren't enough troops there for that.

I guess, going back to the football analogy, I'm not dressing up in the other team's jersey and screaming for them to win... I'm just not happy about the last couple plays that were run by my team, and question whether or not the coach or his assistant coaches have the right game plan.

At no point have I, nor will I, root for the other team, and I'm always supportive of the players, but if the coach continues to call run plays when maybe a pass would work better, that concerns me.

At the end, I realize I'm merely a spectator not involved. As such, there's no way any of us can really know the intelligence and the strategy behind what is going on over there. I can only go off of the appearances, and right now, it appears as though progress has stalled.

I guess I kind of feel like we thought this might have been easier than it now is, and at times it doesn't always look like there has been careful planning in the long-term scope of the war.

I still want victory, and have no sympathy for the enemy, but is it not possible to support the players while not supporting parts of the playcalling?

Nobody is arguing anybody's right to question strategy. The thread has exploded on the idea that the war itself is illegal and that is entirely different than questioning strategy. I too think some of the strategy is flawed, that is Arm Chair Quarterbacking and it is done in every capacity of American life and there is nothing wrong with that.

It was stating the war is illegal, which has been done and what is currently being argued, or immoral then attempting to excuse soldiers participating from any moral obligation of their actions which dehumanizes them and what is currently being discussed, not an objection to the strategy used in fighting the war.

 

[Hobbit]

Retention is good.



http://www.blackanthem.com/News/military_2005091103.html



http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050920-secdef3941.html



http://web.krg.org/articles/article_detail.asp?LangNr=12&RubricNr=&ArticleNr=6063&LNNr=28&RNNr=70

Wow, thanks a lot. You even managed to post these links before I made a post saying I didn't have the official numbers. Points for you. (edit: gotta spread it around)

 

[The ClayTaurus]

No official numbers off the top of my head, as most of the legacy media (they're not mainstream anymore) doesn't want to publish them, but I can tell you that I hardly ever hear of people not re-enlisting at least once over there unless they only joined for the college money and tried to dodge actual service in the first place.

As far as criticism, you're fine if you think the war isn't being fought correctly. I, personally, think we're being too PC and need to take off the kid gloves. It's guys like xen who like to use buzzwords like "illegal war," "quagmire," and "Nazi" that I have a beef with.

That's fine, but please be careful when you say things like "the re-enlistment rate is astronomical" when you don't really have any numbers to prove it... I'd like to believe it's true, but you're just spreading rumours without the evidence. I know there are soldiers who are unhappy about their extended tours of duty. I've heard that this has made retention more difficult for the armed forces. Since we each have different observational experiences, some numbers would help us out... is there anywhere you know of to get re-enlistment rates?

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Retention is good.



http://www.blackanthem.com/News/military_2005091103.html



http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050920-secdef3941.html



http://web.krg.org/articles/article_detail.asp?LangNr=12&RubricNr=&ArticleNr=6063&LNNr=28&RNNr=70

Thanks for the links... I'm going to look at them. Do they have actual statistics in them, or just "retention rates are high" type statements?

EDIT: There are some numbers. Good post.

 

[Zhukov]

Just general statements, usually imbedded way inside the articles.

If you want numbers I'd suggest you search DoD.gov.

It's good news so it won't be in the news.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

It's good news so it won't be in the news.

Agreed. That's a whole 'nother topic of discussion just WAITING to happen.

 

[Hagbard Celine]

Untrue. Every citizen is a member of the political process. You can't lose the process and then claim it doesn't represent you. Move to Canada if this country doesn't represent you. You might not agree with the end result, but you can't disown it when it doesn't serve your purpose. Well you can, by leaving...

Typical. "If you don't love America then you can just get out." Such respect for the views of others. But who am I kidding. This is the same disrespect doled out by all of you Conservative posters for anyone displaying a non-militaristic point of view.

And I agree with you on the statement that every citizen is a member of the political PROCESS, but every citizen isn't a member of the outcome of that process.

With the three branches of the government dominated by the Republican party, every Conservative agenda is passing through with almost no opposition. Almost half of Americans have been left with practically no voice in the affairs of their country and it's extremely frustrating.

 

[xen]

Typical. "If you don't love America then you can just get out." Such respect for the views of others. But who am I kidding. This is the same disrespect doled out by all of you Conservative posters for anyone displaying a non-militaristic point of view.

And I agree with you on the statement that every citizen is a member of the political PROCESS, but every citizen isn't a member of the outcome of that process.

With the three branches of the government dominated by the Republican party, every Conservative agenda is passing through with almost no opposition. Almost half of Americans have been left with practically no voice in the affairs of their country and it's extremely frustrating.

 

[Abbey Normal]

Well, this thread has come along way in my absence.

All of which the majority of people in the know believed at the time.

Your opinion.

How do you figure? He was out of power in a month, captured within seven, what more do you want?

I really don't think you understand what's going on. Well first of all, you think the President exaggerated, and that's your main opposition to the war? Did you oppose the war before we went in, or only after a certain length of time elapsed without finding stockpiles of biological and chemical weapons? Hypothetically, if they found that Saddam smuggled weapons into Syria, would that change your mind? I'm not going to throw up links to articles about people who think that happened, I'm just curious, if tommorow Syria fessed up and undug the thousands of barrels of nerve gas Saddam passed to them at the begining of the invasion would that matter to you?

But when I say I don't think you know what's going on is that you seem to have a very narrow view about what the Iraq war is all about, because Iraq is just the most visible battle in the global war.

We get people who come in here all the time (some have posted in this thread) who say, 'Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11, al-Qaeda did', or say 'we should be going after the leaders not wasting time in Iraq', or say 'well most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, why don't we attack them?'

People who say 'Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11, al-Qaeda did' misunderstand who the enemy is.

People who say 'should be going after the leaders not wasting time in Iraq' underestimate our capability.

People who say 'well most of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudis, why don't we attack them' are ignorant of our strategy.

The enemy is not the 19 guys who attacked us on 9/11, nor is it the one group that organized the attack. The enemy is every fascist moslem who seeks the downfall of the US, every disgruntled moslem who follows the fascists, and every two-bit dictator who provides some form of aid to the fascists. That is alot of people. It includes Kim and Fidel, al-Qaeda and Hezbollah, a handful of other dictators, several terrorist organizations, and maybe hundreds of thousands of otherwise average people.

The enemy has many faces, all of which need to be addressed in a seperate fashion. In order to not be forced to kill the hundreds of thousands of otherwise average people (after all, we could just nuke everyone, like they would us if given the oppourtunity, but we are the good guys) we need to show them not only that their leaders are wrong and going to lose, but that there is another way for them to live their lives that doesn't involve killing innocent people. That's what Iraq is all about. It's about showing our enemies if you think you can snub your nose at us, conspire to attack us or conspire with forces that wish to destroy us, and brutalize your people we are going to take you out. Iraq was a message to the two-bit dictators.

The only problem with it was all the complaining from the U.S. and Europe about it. Sure, it scared them at first, Ghadafi shit himself, the Iranians got real quiet, Kim protested but it sounded more like a frightened animal than a strong affronted enemy. Then something happened. People over here started bitching and moaning. Not alot of people by any means, but their voices were amplified by a media that agreed. France complained, it was amplified as if France's opinion were important. Cracks in the armor, and the two-bits saw it. Iran is now blatantly saying their going to proceed with their nuclear ambitions, North Korea is demanding a nuclear reactor again, Fidel and Hugo are getting all chummy. The psychological impact of Iraq is being squandered.

As for our capabilities, we still have nearly 20,000 troops in Afghanistan 'going after the leaders', along with other NATO forces, but most people seem to conveniently forget that when it comes time to enumerate the reasons why 'Iraq was bad', as if every soldier in the US military was now wandering aimlessly around Baghdad getting shot.

Our intelligence, in conjuction with intelligence agencies around the world, are constantly arresting people.

But you don't see that, and you won't see that.

Most everything you see is the most visible aspect of this war, and that is Iraq, and despite all the spin, we won the war, we are kicking the shit out of both domestic thugs and foreign terrorists there, and the Iraqis are stepping up to take over for us so we can leave.

It bothers anyone with a heart and a soul. Do you think it doesn't bother people who disagree with you about the war? Do you really think it doesn't bother the President. The only difference is some people believe the sacrifice is necessary.

Emotion can't be an obstacle to action when action is necessary.



Whenever you feel like it, but one might hope that it would involve a better future for all the innocent people involved.

I don't agree to that.

Zhuk, this is simply one of the most well-reasoned and thoughtful posts on the board since I joined. I wanted to thank you for taking the time to write it all out for us, and tell you that some of us do hear you.

Bravo!

 

[dmp]

The problem does not lie with Republicans so much as it does with the fact 'The Democrats' have NO Policies...no Plans...no methods which make any sense. All the Majority of Citizens in this country see is ineptitude, waste, squander, spinelessness, appeasement, and lip-service.

Perhaps if 'your party' would revert to more of a Zel Miller stance on issues, there'd be more chance for wider acceptance.

 

[Zhukov]

You would clap.

but every citizen isn't a member of the outcome of that process.

Woe is me, my side didn't win. I quit.

Almost half of Americans have been left with practically no voice in the affairs of their country and it's extremely frustrating.

I hope so, because the incessant whining is annoying. So it's only fair.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

Typical. "If you don't love America then you can just get out." Such respect for the views of others. But who am I kidding. This is the same disrespect doled out by all of you Conservative posters for anyone displaying a non-militaristic point of view.

And I agree with you on the statement that every citizen is a member of the political PROCESS, but every citizen isn't a member of the outcome of that process.

With the three branches of the government dominated by the Republican party, every Conservative agenda is passing through with almost no opposition. Almost half of Americans have been left with practically no voice in the affairs of their country and it's extremely frustrating.

It's not a love it or leave it argument, but you can't disown the country when it doesn't suit your interests. The Republican domination is because the Democratic party lacks any competent leadership. Howard Dean as the chairman? SERIOUSLY? If you're unsatisfied with the leadership of the country, you need to address your party and why they weren't able to regain it. George Bush is not a difficult president to defeat. Some Republicans will even admit to that.

If you're involved in the process, you're involved in the outcome. Your team lost.

I'd vote for a Democrat if they could find one with any common sense. The democratic party is interested in nothing but pandering to it's supporters. You are not the victim of a Republican conspiracy. You LOST because Democratic party leadership is WORSE than the Republicans.

There was no disrepect in my posting. None that was intended. You come off as sounding like it's unfair that Democrats aren't in power.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

The problem does not lie with Republicans so much as it does with the fact 'The Democrats' have NO Policies...no Plans...no methods which make any sense. All the Majority of Citizens in this country see is ineptitude, waste, squander, spinelessness, appeasement, and lip-service.

Perhaps if 'your party' would revert to more of a Zel Miller stance on issues, there'd be more chance for wider acceptance.

I agree with the lack of a plan argument, but Zel Miller is insane. I'd be wary of anyone who looks to him as how the country should be run.

 

[Zhukov]

You come off as sounding like it's unfair that Democrats aren't in power.

One begins to think that deep down inside they don't really care about democracy or majority opinion, but instead only that they are 'right' and they should therefore be in power forever.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

One begins to think that deep down inside they don't really care about democracy or majority opinion, but instead only that they are 'right' and they should therefore be in power forever.

It's just unfortunate that they lack the ability to be self-critical. It would improve the party so much. Like I said, beating George Bush isn't that hard.

 

[xen]

One begins to think that deep down inside they don't really care about democracy or majority opinion, but instead only that they are 'right' and they should therefore be in power forever.

We think EXACTLY the same about you the reich wing, well put.

BTW, that was a good post by conservative standards, good show.
Only problem is that its illogical.

America will ALWAYS have enemies.
You either choose to fight them forever, or have a successful nation.

 

[The ClayTaurus]

We think EXACTLY the same about you the reich wing, well put.

BTW, that was a good post by conservative standards, good show.
Only problem is that its illogical.

America will ALWAYS have enemies.
You either choose to fight them forever, or have a successful nation.

All of that could be true, but you still refuse to admit your own party's inadequacies. I, for one, would take much greater stock in your opinion if it was obvious you had the ability and were willing to be self-critical.

 

[Zhukov]

We think EXACTLY the same about you the reich wing, well put.

Call the Republicans Nazis. How original and intelligent.

Sorry to disappoint however, but I don't happen to be a Republican. I just tend to agree with them more often than not these days.

BTW, that was a good post by conservative standards, good show.
Only problem is that its illogical.

Your posts are mediocre by liberal standards. No problem with the illogic of them however, as that is par for the course. Were logic to creep in, it would cease to be liberal.

America will ALWAYS have enemies.
You either choose to fight them forever, or have a successful nation.

What a colossaly stupid line. Let me guess, that's you own (not Jefferson's), though no doubt a grotesque bastardization of something Jefferson once said.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I agree with the lack of a plan argument, but Zel Miller is insane. I'd be wary of anyone who looks to him as how the country should be run.

Zell miller is cogent, honest, and a great american. Where do you get that he's insane?

 

[xen]

All of that could be true, but you still refuse to admit your own party's inadequacies. I, for one, would take much greater stock in your opinion if it was obvious you had the ability and were willing to be self-critical.

Hehhe, well good then.. The democratics are a bunch of morons, sell-out, republican wannabes. I am expecially DISGUSTED by clinton's DLC. You can quote me on that.