Obama: US "Not a Christian Nation"

[KittenKoder]

Just going to hear sermons/speeches doesn't mean one agrees much less prefers their ideals, it only shows they are interested in the person.

 

[Father Time]

He mentions Whitefield in his autobiography but he doesn't say much about what he thinks of his sermons, it's mostly on his ability to draw a crowd.

First of all, he went to hear his sermons, which says quite a bit right there. Second, he says in his autobiography that he was persuaded on attendance to give the guy money, and not based on his showmanship. Nice try, though.

Yeah he gave him money for an orphanage the man was starting in Georgia. It doesn't take much to recognize a good cause.

 

[Cecilie1200]

He mentions Whitefield in his autobiography but he doesn't say much about what he thinks of his sermons, it's mostly on his ability to draw a crowd.

First of all, he went to hear his sermons, which says quite a bit right there. Second, he says in his autobiography that he was persuaded on attendance to give the guy money, and not based on his showmanship. Nice try, though.

Yeah he gave him money for an orphanage the man was starting in Georgia. It doesn't take much to recognize a good cause.

Ben Franklin, being smarter than you, didn't just give people money because they talked up a good cause. If he gave someone money, it would have been because he also thought that person was a good person who would make good use of the money in that cause.

While I understand the desperate need of you people to believe that Deism was and is akin to atheism and requires hostility toward Christianity, I don't understand where you draw any such actual conclusions from, and I get very, very tired of watching you wriggle around like worms in hot ashes, trying to make excuses for and explain away anything that doesn't fit your desired view of the matter.

Franklin admired and respected Christianity and Christians. His words and actions throughout hi life said so. Period. Nothing you do is going to allow you to portray him as hostile to them, so give it up.

 

[Father Time]

I never portrayed him as hostile, you were the one implying that he agreed with Whitefield who was practically an evangelical.

I just have a hard time believing he said

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

 

[pagankmck]

yah...it's not like the foundiing fathers were actually deists or anything.

some were, somne weren't. the really cool ones were unitarians.

.
YOu can be a deist and a Unitarian. I'm a Pagan and a Unitarian. When God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independance, they are referring to the God of Nature. THe US became a country in the Enlightenment. They were moving away from religion Jefferson didn't necessarily hate Christianity, he just didn't believe in THeocracy. The founders were not that far away from the religious wars of the Reformation and counter-reformation. Very violent periods.

 

[pagankmck]

We were established on Biblical Principals

Biblical principles? Like what. Many "Biblical Princples" are common enough. THe Republic structure is Roman, back in the days when they were still Pagan. Many of the laws in this country were based on English Common Law, in existance since pagan times.

 

[pagankmck]

Read the constitution and the statements of all of our founders, you will find that this country is a judeo-christian nation, it always has been and hopefully it will always be. I am surprised at such an inaccurate statement by the President of the United States. I think that he needs to do some homework.

If you read the Constitution you find religion mentioned once in the body and once in the amendments. The body of the Constitution says there will be no religious test to hold office and the First Amendment which says the Government shall not establish a religion or prohibit the free excercise, thereof. Christianity is not mentioned anywhere, certainly not as our official religion. If you read quotes from our founders, you find that they had a wide range of beliefs and ideas. Many of them didn't even get along.

America was founded as a secular nation that protected the right to practice or not practice any religion.

 

[Cecilie1200]

I never portrayed him as hostile, you were the one implying that he agreed with Whitefield who was practically an evangelical.

I just have a hard time believing he said

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

I implied nothing of the sort. I said he respected and admired him. You inferred it because YOU are hostile toward Christianity, and apparently see any hint that a Founding Father didn't take the same view as an assault requiring a counterattack.

As for having a hard time believing it, did it ever occur to you that, instead of sitting around calling people liars simply because it doesn't fit in with your worldview and what you want to believe about Franklin, you could just go doublecheck and find out whether or not it's really a Franklin quote? You ARE connected to the Internet, you know.

 

[Father Time]

I never portrayed him as hostile, you were the one implying that he agreed with Whitefield who was practically an evangelical.

I just have a hard time believing he said

"History will also afford frequent opportunities of showing the necessity of a public religion...and the excellency of the Christian religion above all others, ancient or modern."

I implied nothing of the sort. I said he respected and admired him. You inferred it because YOU are hostile toward Christianity, and apparently see any hint that a Founding Father didn't take the same view as an assault requiring a counterattack.

I haven't been hostile to Christianity once, you're just dying for a victim status or a reason to dismiss me.

As for having a hard time believing it, did it ever occur to you that, instead of sitting around calling people liars simply because it doesn't fit in with your worldview and what you want to believe about Franklin, you could just go doublecheck and find out whether or not it's really a Franklin quote? You ARE connected to the Internet, you know.

Sorry but the burden lies with the person making a claim to provide a source not for me to disprove it.

 

[krotchdog]

KittenKoder

I have two concerns about this issue that bother me:

1. Why is it so important that this nation has a specific religious leaning when it's suppose to be one that does not for a pretty good reason?

2. If if it was not true why is it such a concern that Obama (who isn't the best president we could have had anyway) said this to anyone? Do people really think this will change how other countries view us?

Actually, we have a founding on Christianity for a reason. John Adams says it best.

Because power corrupts, society's demands for moral authority and character increase as the importance of the position increases.
John Adams

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
John Adams

Power always thinks... that it is doing God's service when it is violating all his laws.
John Adams

The Declaration of Independence I always considered as a theatrical show. Jefferson ran away with all the stage effect of that... and all the glory of it.
John Adams

The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations.
John Adams

 

[del]

KittenKoder

I have two concerns about this issue that bother me:

1. Why is it so important that this nation has a specific religious leaning when it's suppose to be one that does not for a pretty good reason?

2. If if it was not true why is it such a concern that Obama (who isn't the best president we could have had anyway) said this to anyone? Do people really think this will change how other countries view us?

Actually, we have a founding on Christianity for a reason. John Adams says it best.

Because power corrupts, society's demands for moral authority and character increase as the importance of the position increases.
John Adams

The Declaration of Independence I always considered as a theatrical show. Jefferson ran away with all the stage effect of that... and all the glory of it.
John Adams

The Hebrews have done more to civilize men than any other nation. If I were an atheist, and believed blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations.
John Adams

and yet, there's no mention of christianity or christ in any of the quotes you posted.

try again, poochie.

 

[AllieBaba]

The only reason it's important is because you are marginalizing the majority of Americans when you refuse to acknowledge them, and treat them as second class citizense because they are Christian.

Essentially, you have a minority attempting to run rough shod over the majority...and that's the problem.

 

[del]

The only reason it's important is because you are marginalizing the majority of Americans when you refuse to acknowledge them, and treat them as second class citizense because they are Christian.

Essentially, you have a minority attempting to run rough shod over the majority...and that's the problem.

tissue?

 

[KittenKoder]

The only reason it's important is because you are marginalizing the majority of Americans when you refuse to acknowledge them, and treat them as second class citizense because they are Christian.

Essentially, you have a minority attempting to run rough shod over the majority...and that's the problem.

Hmm ... so like how the minority groups are marginalized? Gays, pagans, Wiccans, etc.?

 

[Cecilie1200]

yah...it's not like the foundiing fathers were actually deists or anything.

some were, somne weren't. the really cool ones were unitarians.

.
YOu can be a deist and a Unitarian. I'm a Pagan and a Unitarian. When God is mentioned in the Declaration of Independance, they are referring to the God of Nature. THe US became a country in the Enlightenment. They were moving away from religion Jefferson didn't necessarily hate Christianity, he just didn't believe in THeocracy. The founders were not that far away from the religious wars of the Reformation and counter-reformation. Very violent periods.

That's certainly an interestingly revisionist view on the subject.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The only reason it's important is because you are marginalizing the majority of Americans when you refuse to acknowledge them, and treat them as second class citizense because they are Christian.

Essentially, you have a minority attempting to run rough shod over the majority...and that's the problem.

We have the Constitution and created a plurality so as to not run roughshod over any citizen.

Christians are not second class citizens. Nor are Christians first class citizens. We created a country without a class system.

We created a democracy and a plurality. Citizens are citizens--free and equal, Christian or Jew, Mormon or Muslim, Buddhist or atheist.

 

[AllieBaba]

The only reason it's important is because you are marginalizing the majority of Americans when you refuse to acknowledge them, and treat them as second class citizense because they are Christian.

Essentially, you have a minority attempting to run rough shod over the majority...and that's the problem.

Hmm ... so like how the minority groups are marginalized? Gays, pagans, Wiccans, etc.?

The difference being..they are minorities in a democracy. Where the majority rules. We have certain laws to protect their civil rights.

But when a minority determines to subjugate and suppress a majority, that is tyranny and despotism.

I make fun of you for being a Wiccan or a whatever you are...but I don't go around spouting that your religious ceremonies should be declared "hate speech" or that if you dare to refer to your religion or admit that your decisions are based partly or even entirely upon your religion that you should be banned from public office.

That's the difference. There's a tiny minority out there pretending that the MAJORITY OF AMERICANS are bigoted, cruel, stupid, and shouldn't be allowed to hold office, raise their children in their faith, or be allowed to refer to their faith.

America IS a Christian nation. We aren't a theocracy. Those are two different things, and I never claimed we were a theocracy. That's something Sky threw in when she had nothing else.

And the reason we aren't a theocracy is because CHRISTIANS founded the country, and knew exactly how religious persecution works. It allows a MINORITY to control a majority in the most debased manner possible.

And our Christian founding fathers didn't want that to happen in the US. They wanted to be able to practice their faiths openly and without fear of repercussion.

But we're still a Christian nation, as far as numbers go, and as far as our history goes.

 

[AllieBaba]

The only reason it's important is because you are marginalizing the majority of Americans when you refuse to acknowledge them, and treat them as second class citizense because they are Christian.

Essentially, you have a minority attempting to run rough shod over the majority...and that's the problem.

We have the Constitution and created a plurality so as to not run roughshod over any citizen.

Christians are not second class citizens. Nor are Christians first class citizens. We created a country without a class system.

We created a democracy and a plurality. Citizens are citizens--free and equal, Christian or Jew, Mormon or Muslim, Buddhist or atheist.

Nobody argued any different, Sky. The only argument was are we a Christian nation.

We are.

Then you threw in the "plurality" and the "theocracy" bullshit.

But that wasn't the issue. The fact is, everyone has the right to practice their religion, but we remain a Christian nation by way of numbers.

 

[krotchdog]

Father time, I am sorry, you asked for sources, the source is right on the quote, John Adams.

Del, "pooch?", you are not intersted, your just looking to flame, I am not here to play games with you.

 

[mightypeon]

Wuut? Hebrews doing more to civilise mankind than any other nation? How come even the Bible is supposed to be in Latin then?
I dont believe that John Adams was so ignorant, sorry.

Historically speaking, the Hebrews were a random tribe that wandered around, had a kingdom for a while, got conquered quite often, got conquered by the romans, spawned a lot of sect leaders and later got spread all over the world, where their religions preserved a strong sense of their ethnicity keeping them seperated from the populations of the countries they were living in.

Jews did not teach non jews until the recent ages, this fact alone largely prevent them from significantly influencing anyone.

After all its nothign special.