ok. I will ask. SunniMan.....

[Sunni Man]

It is not wide spread, but there are missing American women who are suspected Sharia victims.
It happens.

 

[Intense]

Gracie, why not ask if all Jews have to abide by Talmudic law in order to be Jews? Do all Hindus have to abide by Vedic law? Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

The answer is not in the least. Those ancient laws have been superceded. Certainly individuals can choose to live by them as long as they do not clash with civil laws. Under the laws of Moses you were allowed to not only own slaves but also to kill them. Do you expect modern Christians to agree with those laws?

Christians never ever have had to abide by those laws in the OT.

Jesus did not repeal the Mosiac laws regarding slavery. There are NT verses pertaining to how Christian slaves must obey and serve their masters and how Christian masters must treat their slaves.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

Colossians 4:1 Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

1 Timothy 6:1-2 Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these things.

But you lie about the OT

Own slaves and kill them? What law by the Lord was that?

Exodus 21:20-21 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

In other words if you only mortally wound your slave and he takes more than 24 hours to die then there is no punishment because it was the slave owners money that was lost.

Now having read the good book more than once I know you are a liar or stupid beyond.

Perhaps you should try reading it yet again since you seem to have missed all of those verses on every attempt.

Just a thought. Moses grew up in Pharaoh's Household, as a Prince. Who educated him?

The Code of Hammurabi
The Code of Hammurabi ~1700 BCE

On another note, Christianity is rooted more in the 2 Great Commandments, which you might argue encompass the the 10.

Galatians 3:28 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The Holy Bible

 

[Derideo_Te]

Christians never ever have had to abide by those laws in the OT.

Jesus did not repeal the Mosiac laws regarding slavery. There are NT verses pertaining to how Christian slaves must obey and serve their masters and how Christian masters must treat their slaves.

Ephesians 6:5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with fear and trembling, with a sincere heart, as you would Christ,

Colossians 4:1 Masters, treat your slaves justly and fairly, knowing that you also have a Master in heaven.

1 Peter 2:18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all respect, not only to the good and gentle but also to the unjust.

Colossians 3:22 Slaves, obey in everything those who are your earthly masters, not by way of eye-service, as people-pleasers, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.

Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.

1 Timothy 6:1-2 Let all who are under a yoke as slaves regard their own masters as worthy of all honor, so that the name of God and the teaching may not be reviled. Those who have believing masters must not be disrespectful on the ground that they are brothers; rather they must serve all the better since those who benefit by their good service are believers and beloved. Teach and urge these things.



Exodus 21:20-21 “When a man strikes his slave, male or female, with a rod and the slave dies under his hand, he shall be avenged. But if the slave survives a day or two, he is not to be avenged, for the slave is his money."

In other words if you only mortally wound your slave and he takes more than 24 hours to die then there is no punishment because it was the slave owners money that was lost.



Perhaps you should try reading it yet again since you seem to have missed all of those verses on every attempt.

Just a thought. Moses grew up in Pharaoh's Household, as a Prince. Who educated him?

The Code of Hammurabi
The Code of Hammurabi ~1700 BCE

On another note, Christianity is rooted more in the 2 Great Commandments, which you might argue encompass the the 10.

Galatians 3:28 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
The Holy Bible

Good point and I am glad that you raised the Code of Hammurabi. The Mosiac laws on slavery are far more "humane" than those of Hammurabi. Under the latter slaves had no rights at all but under Mosiac law the "rights" of slaves are encoded. Some of those same rights are the ones that are reiterated in the NT as advice to both slaves and their masters. So to get back to you question about the education of Moses it is entirely possible that his more "humane" laws were as a direct result of what happened to the enslaved "chosen people".

 

[there4eyeM]

Who believes sharia is consistent with the Constitution now?

 

[Sunni Man]

[ame=http://youtu.be/RWSwzcTbWq4]WTC Imam Rauf Says America is Sharia Law Compliant - YouTube[/ame]

 

[The Irish Ram]

Christians like Irish Ram use the bait-n-switch tactic when defending their fundamentalist brand of Christianity.

That way they can claim anything that suits their fancy; and then later deny it to win an argument.

She is very disingenuous and deceptive in her convoluted reasoning to defend her bizarre End Times eschatology. ..

I neither add to or take away from the Bible, which is why I frustrate you so much. The 10 Commandments are Jewish Law. I'm not Jewish and my salvation is through Christ, not how well I keep Jewish Law.

I did not tell Ezek. to reveal to us the Muslims that God would decimate for trying to invade Israel.
And Christ didn't die for all of my sins except any 10 commandments I may have broken.
But enough about me Sunni, Let's talk about you:

Isn't the complete answer, Maybe, maybe not? You little patriotic American you.......
What fate did you pray to Allah for the Jews today Sunni? Live long and prosper?

 

[Intense]

Who believes sharia is consistent with the Constitution now?

It's not. Neither is Mosaic Law. Need to distinguish between, Value, Principle, and Ideal, as opposed to Dogma. Who establishes Justice without Partiality, Favor, or Exception?
There is God, and there is what we perceive, from a very limited perspective. Seeking to establish, serve, and defend Justice, is only the foundation in finding harmony and Communion with our Maker. Missteps come all to easy, regardless of intent. We constantly think in absolutes,while missing parts of the equation.

 

[Coyote]

They don't? I had no idea. Which is why I am asking questions. So...where does honor killings come in to play? Is it a muslim thing? Or another religion?

No religion. It's cultural.

 

[Coyote]

Christians never ever have had to abide by those laws in the OT.

But you lie about the OT

Own slaves and kill them? What law by the Lord was that?

Now having read the good book more than once I know you are a liar or stupid beyond.

That's bullshit.

You seem to forget all about the "Dark Ages".

Yeah...so...that was ages ago.
This is now.
You notice Sunni didn't really answer any questions specifically.

Such as....if he knew of a group of men stoned a girl to her death because she had an affair touting Sharia law. Would he or not - turn those men in for murder?
Simple question that requires a single word to answer.

Sunni gave an excellent and indepth answer - I applaud it. Perhaps it doesn't suffice for someone who can't see complex issues for what they are and think of religion (or some religions) as a simple binary.

 

[Coyote]

Do you agree with Sharia law? I asked you once before, a few years ago...if you would be able to stand and watch or participate someone being stoned to death..and you said yes. Do you still stand by that opinion? Also, do you agree with honor killings?

There. It's been asked in a different thread than the one below. I DO appreciate you taking the time to post what other muslims are doing in support of the bombing victims. Now I am asking what your thoughts are on Sharia.

Do all muslims have to abide by sharia in order to be muslim? Or can they be against it and still be muslim?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/290680-i-m-muslim-and-i-hate-terrorism-3.html

Just as a point of accuracy, honor killings have nothing to do with Sharia.

Are you the Rain King?

No. Do you normally wander around without your caretaker?

Where in the Quran is there any reference to honor killing?

 

[Coyote]

Who believes sharia is consistent with the Constitution now?

There is NO religious law that is totally consistent with the Constitution. However, forms of religious law can be be followed in civil law and be perfectly consistent with the Constitution.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

WHAT?????
Christians are not and never have been under Mosiac Law! Not even the top ten! Those laws were given to the Jews because they said they could handle things without God's forgiving grace. So He gave them over 600 rules to live by and 3,000 of them dropped dead on the spot.
Laws depend on man's ability. Life depends on Christ's ability.

Sunni, Christians are not opposed to the Ten Commandments but we are certainly not under the condemnation of them either. A Jew is, but a Christian is not. Whether or not we keep them has nothing to do with our salvation.
Our salvation is not a reward for good behavior, it is a gift in spite of our bad behavior.


And the catch you missed Gracie was:

What I had said before; was that stoning is the method of execution for criminals...........

Ask him what Muslims consider "a crime".
Wasn't it you that posted the picture of the Muslim girl with no nose at another forum? What was her crime again? Or the little girl whose crime was wanting to go to school. The one they raped and shot in the head on the bus. Or the little girl whose father brought her to America, and then ran her over and killed her, because she started acting American. Or the girl they buried and stoned to death because her brother raped a woman and the woman's family demanded honor.

You can take a Muslim out of Sharia Law, but you can't take Sharia Law out of the Muslim. The Qur'an is a religious, and a governing mechanism. It is always severe. The extent of severity varies.

I applaud your zeal for the Lord but the Jews were not given the 10 commandments because they thought they could do without G-ds forgiving grace. It makes me cringe to hear such things being said by Christians. As if it is truth. It isn't. Hope you don't mind me correcting you on that one. You probably got it from Joel Osteen or some other Laoedicean who doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. thanks. - Jeri

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

That's bullshit.

You seem to forget all about the "Dark Ages".

Yeah...so...that was ages ago.
This is now.
You notice Sunni didn't really answer any questions specifically.

Such as....if he knew of a group of men stoned a girl to her death because she had an affair touting Sharia law. Would he or not - turn those men in for murder?
Simple question that requires a single word to answer.

Sunni gave an excellent and indepth answer - I applaud it. Perhaps it doesn't suffice for someone who can't see complex issues for what they are and think of religion (or some religions) as a simple binary.

I have to agree that he did give a fairly detailed answer and it was refreshing to hear him say Sharia Law to Muslims is like Ten Commandments to Christians. His honesty was refreshing. I appreciated it. - Jeri

 

[CMike]

Do you agree with Sharia law? I asked you once before, a few years ago...if you would be able to stand and watch or participate someone being stoned to death..and you said yes. Do you still stand by that opinion? Also, do you agree with honor killings?

There. It's been asked in a different thread than the one below. I DO appreciate you taking the time to post what other muslims are doing in support of the bombing victims. Now I am asking what your thoughts are on Sharia.

Do all muslims have to abide by sharia in order to be muslim? Or can they be against it and still be muslim?

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/290680-i-m-muslim-and-i-hate-terrorism-3.html

Gracie, why not ask if all Jews have to abide by Talmudic law in order to be Jews? Do all Hindus have to abide by Vedic law? Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

The answer is not in the least. Those ancient laws have been superceded. Certainly individuals can choose to live by them as long as they do not clash with civil laws. Under the laws of Moses you were allowed to not only own slaves but also to kill them. Do you expect modern Christians to agree with those laws?

1) The Torah laws are not ancient.They still apply to jews.

2) There is no such thing as Talmudic law. All jews law comes from the five books of Moses.

3) Part of jewish law is to conform to the law of the land. Therefore, jews in America are supposed to keep American law.

4) Back in the old times people could have slaves. It was very common.

However, jewish law treated slaves much different.

If you had one pillow you were supposed to give it to the slave.

Jewish law treated slaves in an extremely human way.

5) You should consider that you are making statements about something you know nothing about.

6)

 

[CMike]

Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

Christians are not and never have been under Mosiac Law! Not even the top ten! Those laws were given to the Jews because they said they could handle things without God's forgiving grace.

You got things backwards bud.

Jews do believe in G-D's forgiving grace.

I believe it's your belief that you should ignore G-D and put your faith in a man when G-D said no to.

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)

... so that all the peoples of the Earth may know that the Lord is God and that there is no other. (1 Kings, 8:60)

Turn to Me and be saved, all you ends of the Earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (Isaiah, 45:22)

So He gave them over 600 rules to live by and 3,000 of them dropped dead on the spot.

Oh? When was that? The time when jews got in trouble is when they followed false gods and false prophets.

Laws depend on man's ability. Life depends on Christ's ability.

Laws and life depend on G-D and keeping what G-D said.

 

[CMike]

Aren't the Ten Commandments part of the Torah and the Christian Scripture that Jews and Christians (and Muslims) follow as given by God.

Em, the Laws were given to Moses for the Jews. Christians have "adopted" 10 of them as sound doctrine for anybody to follow. Muslims have nothing to do with the Ten Commandments.

You have Jesus' Father confused with other gods, like Allah.
God and Allah are not the same God.
The God of Abraham has a Son, Jesus.
In great big letters on the dome of the rock, Muslims make this statement:
Allah has no son.

G-D disagrees.

This is what the Lord says…"Surely God is with you, and there is no other; there is no other God." (Isaiah, 45:14)

...The Lord our God, the Lord is one. (Deuteronomy, 6:4)


... O Lord; no deeds can compare with Yours. All the nations You have made will come and worship before You, O Lord; they will bring glory to Your name. For You are great and do marvelous deeds; You alone are God. (Psalms, 86:8-10)

O Lord ...You alone are God over all the kingdoms of the Earth. You have made heaven and Earth. (Isaiah, 37:16)

... all kingdoms on Earth may know that You alone, O Lord, are God. (Isaiah, 37:20)

 

[CMike]

Who believes sharia is consistent with the Constitution now?

It's not. Neither is Mosaic Law. Need to distinguish between, Value, Principle, and Ideal, as opposed to Dogma. Who establishes Justice without Partiality, Favor, or Exception?
There is God, and there is what we perceive, from a very limited perspective. Seeking to establish, serve, and defend Justice, is only the foundation in finding harmony and Communion with our Maker. Missteps come all to easy, regardless of intent. We constantly think in absolutes,while missing parts of the equation.

Jewish law is consistent with the Constitution, because part of jewish law is to keep the law of the land that you are in.

 

[CMike]

Do all Christians have to abide by Mosiac law?

WHAT?????
Christians are not and never have been under Mosiac Law! Not even the top ten! Those laws were given to the Jews because they said they could handle things without God's forgiving grace. So He gave them over 600 rules to live by and 3,000 of them dropped dead on the spot.
Laws depend on man's ability. Life depends on Christ's ability.

Sunni, Christians are not opposed to the Ten Commandments but we are certainly not under the condemnation of them either. A Jew is, but a Christian is not. Whether or not we keep them has nothing to do with our salvation.
Our salvation is not a reward for good behavior, it is a gift in spite of our bad behavior.


And the catch you missed Gracie was:

What I had said before; was that stoning is the method of execution for criminals...........

Ask him what Muslims consider "a crime".
Wasn't it you that posted the picture of the Muslim girl with no nose at another forum? What was her crime again? Or the little girl whose crime was wanting to go to school. The one they raped and shot in the head on the bus. Or the little girl whose father brought her to America, and then ran her over and killed her, because she started acting American. Or the girl they buried and stoned to death because her brother raped a woman and the woman's family demanded honor.

You can take a Muslim out of Sharia Law, but you can't take Sharia Law out of the Muslim. The Qur'an is a religious, and a governing mechanism. It is always severe. The extent of severity varies.

I applaud your zeal for the Lord but the Jews were not given the 10 commandments because they thought they could do without G-ds forgiving grace. It makes me cringe to hear such things being said by Christians. As if it is truth. It isn't. Hope you don't mind me correcting you on that one. You probably got it from Joel Osteen or some other Laoedicean who doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. thanks. - Jeri

 

[emilynghiem]

Aren't the Ten Commandments part of the Torah and the Christian Scripture that Jews and Christians (and Muslims) follow as given by God.

Em, the Laws were given to Moses for the Jews. Christians have "adopted" 10 of them as sound doctrine for anybody to follow. Muslims have nothing to do with the Ten Commandments.

You have Jesus' Father confused with other gods, like Allah.
God and Allah are not the same God.
The God of Abraham has a Son, Jesus.
In great big letters on the dome of the rock, Muslims make this statement:
Allah has no son.

Dear Irish: You are right that we are no longer bound or enslaved by the law as in under judgment and punishment by retribution (unless of course we enforce the laws this way, so we are bound by our own words and actions, especially judgment toward others).

But we are under the law by the SPIRIT of the law. Once we agree to commit to embody the law by Christ, then of course by CONSCIENCE we are committed NOT to steal, NOT to bear false witness, NOT to commit adultery, etc. By our commitment, our conscience compels us NATURALLY to AVOID these things. But the DIFFERENCE is that the laws become self-enforcing because we are committed to God's laws through Christ. We no longer depend on outside govt to threaten punishment, it is not external behavior control. It becomes self-government, we check and balance and correct each other to keep the laws enforced. Our commitment, our thoughts words and actions enforce the law by example, and we help each other as neighbors in Christ to stay in line.

So we do follow the law, but by conscience by nature because we make the commitment through Christ to embody and embrace the law, to live by them in spirit. Does this make sense?
Jesus said he came not to abolish the law but to fulfill it. So when we commit to this same spirit of justice by Jesus, then we naturally follow and fulfill the law through him connecting us in that spirit.

Some people do this with Christian or Biblical law.
Some people take the Constitutional laws to heart by conscience and live by them.

When you have the spirit of Jesus or Justice live in your heart,
then whatever laws you commit to follow, that spirit of Jesus or Justice
helps you to resolve conflicts so you can keep your commitment to follow the truth.

As for Islam, the true believers and followers also follow the Bible
and God's truth written in those laws. That's how you will know the
true believers from the ones who just follow the local religion and external traditions.

The believers who follow the SPIRIT of the laws
respond to rebuke and recognize and receive God's wisdom and truth.

So those are our neighbors in Christ, those who respond by conscience
and seek the truth, the Kingdom of God, so they ask and they receive
and they bring the spirit of the truth from God into relationships by
mutual forgiveness and mutual correction.

So I agree that the letter of the law was changed and made new
whenChrist brings teh spirit of the law to govern us by connecting
with each other in God's truth. It DOES change things, you are right.
In Christ all things are made new Rev 4
So those who receive Christ, also make Islam renewed,
make Buddhism renewed, make our Constitutional laws renewed in Spirit.

that is how you can know our neighbors in Christ
who will make all the tribes NEW and they become one in Christ Jesus
We will no longer be separated from each other in fear
but will be joined in Christ by God's love and truth.

So you will see this coming because you are asking and looking.
God bless you as you will see this, and not be so surprised
as others who did not see it coming.

I love you and thank you for being here.
Please help another one very much like you
trying to teach these same things on another forum.
I will send you a msg and maybe you can help
her to reach more ppl. I think as we get on the same page,
and pray together in agreement in Christ, then we will help
more people.

Irish I agree with you in spirit, it is jsut that the way we say
things may confuse ppl, so we need to get this all clear
and more ppl will understand the msg. I will msg you and ask
your advice.

Stay true and thank you for staying in prayer with this.
there are many more people coming forward, coming
together to realize the truth that is coming out. It wil
unify people and end division so i twill be clear it is
coming from God because only God's love can unite
ppl over all our manmade divisions that cannot withstand.

Thank you again and I join you in prayer and
agreement with the true meaning of what you are saying.
I do not disagree with you, but the meaning will be
explained to ppl in different ways so it will be understood.
the way you and I say it, not everyone understands yet.

Thanks peace and God bless!
Yours in prayer,
Love, Emily

 

[emilynghiem]

As a discussion regarding Sharia Law is broader in focus than honor killing or the opinion of one poster, the European Court of Human Rights has clearly set forth their opinion about this subject.

"...in 2004 the European Court of Human Rights "found that sharia was incompatible with the fundamental principles of democracy… It considered that “sharia, which faithfully reflects the dogmas and divine rules laid down by religion, is stable and invariable. Principles such as pluralism in the political sphere or the constant evolution of public freedoms have no place in it. According to the Court, it was difficult to declare one’s respect for democracy and human rights while at the same time supporting a regime based on sharia, which clearly diverged from Convention values, particularly with regard to its criminal law and criminal procedure, its rules on the legal status of women and the way it intervened in all spheres of private and public life in accordance with religious precepts.”

Council of Europe - Conseil de l'Europe

I can assure you that muslims do not give a rat's ass what a European/Western court has to say about Sharia or other associated Islamic issues.

True story.......

Dear Sunni: the Muslims who are consistent with their faith follow the Christian scriptures which teach to respect human institutions and obey civil authority. So the true believers will listen and care what the civil authorities say. if there is disagreement, we are called to be witnesses to God's truth so corrections can be made. So if you are consistent with Muslim teachings you would know that natural laws come from God and civil authority should be consistent with natural laws. And either listen and obey, or where there is injustice, then take responsibility to correct the wrongs so the laws are consistent with what is natural.

If you do not obey the whole of the law, then you are hardly in a position to criticize Irish or any other Christians for doing the same. If you wish to pick and choose which parts of the law to enforce, please do not criticize her or others for doing that. You do the same thing.

As Islam teaches that no man is a believer who does not want for others what he wants for himself, please decide which way you want it. you can either choose to correct yourself and look at following all the laws sent by God which Islam teaches to receive and respect, and then you can better ask Irish and others to enforce the same; or you can pick and choose to ignore the Bible which Mohammad included in God's laws and let Irish and others continue to pick and choose and quit criticizing them if you are doing the same thing.

If you want to do both, you can choose to forgive and then also correct, to the same degree you are willing to be treated the same. So you decide. Either way God's laws prove themselves to be true, that you will be treated as you treat others; if you keep calling Irish and other Christians hypocrites then you will also be called the same. I hope you are not content with mediocrity but will choose to be the bigger better person that God made you to be. And not continue to deny fault or omissions on your part while blaming others only.

I hope you prove to be the man of God I believe you are and rise above.
I pray for you and Irish too to put these mutual conflicts aside and commit to receiving and following the whole of the law so God will help us all to understand and fulfill that.

God's truth is greater than these petty differnces we haggle over.
but we have to agree to set those aside before God will show us the
real truth and real solutions, the real way we are going to use these laws to
teach the universal meaning and message. it is not in the conflicts but in the resolution of them that we will receive this greater understandin God is leading us to.

So thank you for being here and I hope both you and Irish keep
workign through this process so we can gain a greater understanding
of God as we resolve our issues and see the points and purpose where we agree.

Thank you Sunni
I pray especially that you and Irish resolve the issues
that otherwise prevent either or you from recognizing each other as equal witnesses to God's truth.
you both have truth to share, but our words and ways are in conflict with each other.
God's truth has no conflicts. So when we truly receive God's truth, then our
words will correct themselves and we will no longer disagree.
that is when we will know we have resolved things correctly
and gotten the whole message because we will all agree freely.

When God's truth is received by all, we will know that we are all in agreement and talking about the same thing, even though we will still use our different religions or laws to explain and express it. Perhaps this is why Mohammad in his wisdom asked the believers to receive all sent by God, all prophets and wisdom, because it would take all of that combined to contain and teach God's truth to the various tribes and audiences to put it all together.

If Mohammad is truly the last prophet sent by God, then there must be a way to interpret his teachings to finish the law and process. So what is that way, using the Bible and all the prophets in the Bible who are included as part of the law that believers are to follow?