Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

[code1211]

Funny you are providing evidence of design that produces amino acids Gods creation.

Oh boy,what kind of amino acids were formed in the miller urey experiment ?

Yes plants can produce amino acids but amino acids had to be formed before there were plants.

Now another problem for the experiment was nobody knows what the enviornment was like when life began. Really you believe lightning sparked the creation of amino acids ?

Let's not forget oxygen could not be present.

Now let's look a little closer to the miller urey experiment and see if it was a natural enviornment or not.

The Miller-Urey Experiement

It's pretty likely that oxygen was not around before life. Plants eat CO2 and waste out O.

There had to be some pretty significant planet forming before mammals could have drawn their first breath.

How do you know there was no oxygen on this planet when life began ? The real reason you want to hold on to this view is because you know the building blocks of life amino acids could not have formed in that enviornment.

Did you know rocks contain oxygen ?

I have no stake in the Amino Acid thingy at all. Don't really care. My conjecture about the CO2 relies on the fact that the things that first gained life ate CO2. It is reasonable to assume that life that found success would thrive on whatever was most plentiful to eat.

It is true today that if the food source for anything goes away, so does that thing. If the food source stays plentiful, life is good.

I have read that the atmosphere was rich in CO2 early on, but that just stoked the thought in my mind about why plants would rise as eaters of CO2 and I'm a little in awe of the fact that little tiny organisms changed the planet.

In terms of what they did to the planet, what we are dong is small potatoes.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Or all the people who have died from horrible diseases for nothing. Unless God is trying to kill us with precision.

ALTER2EGO -to- OOH POO PAH DOO & DR.DROCK:

QUESTION: Who was it that caused animals to become extinct by killing off the creatures for sport, polluting the land and the animals' environment, chopped down trees the animals relied upon, spilled oil in the ocean and killed of fish and birds, etc.?

ANSWER: Rebellious humans who have no respect for God's laws.

Who's law was it that gave man dominion over the animals?

God's law but I don't believe he meant to the point of causing extinction harm to the earth.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were full of wrath, and Your wrath came, and the time of the judging of the dead, and to give the reward to Your servants the prophets, and to the saints, and to the ones fearing Your name, to the small and to the great, and to destroy those destroying the earth.

 

[Youwerecreated]

I don't know what my opinion is on those, as I've never seen a question anyone who respects biology dodge a question about biology.

Well two of them have been ignored in this thread or dragon did give an opinion that has no backing.

Where did intelligence originate from ?

How did life begin ? do you have an opinion ?

Opinion is all that anyone can offer, no?

That is correct but the important part you guys keep complaining about is the evidence.

I believe evidence supports my views.

 

[Youwerecreated]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Logic based upon the dismissal of evidence is flawed logic--which is what you're bringing to the table. For instance, the first 60 elements found within the Periodic Table of the Elements of planet earth are so interrelated and precise that scientists refer to it as Periodic LAW. The existence of Laws aka precision indicates an INTELLIGENT DESIGNER directed the outcome.

Evidence of God's existence is dismissed every single time one ignores the complexity of the natural world. Flawed logic also results from ignorance or lack of knowledge of certain scientific facts. To avoid the trap of stubbornness, one must allow logic and evidence to interact.

The Big Bang Theory is just that--a theory, and one that will never be proven as it amounts to nothing more than speculation aka personal opinions. Nobody can explain how this theory of expanding space is an explanation for the appearance of planets with their individual gravitational fields that prevents them from crashing into each other, and the fact that certain planets work to the advantage of earth.


Without intelligent direction, things would result by chance occurrences known as accidents. Webster’s New Collegiate Dictionary defines an accident as a "nonessential event that happens by chance and has undesirable or unfortunate results." As previously stated, the precision (which leaves no room for accidents) found in the world around us cries out to the existence of an intelligent, supernatural Designer or God. Things happening at random aka by accident cannot result in precision. Take, for example, the following.

Consider the earth's measurements and its location in our solar system. Earth is just the right size for our existence. If earth were slightly larger, its gravity would be stronger, with the result that hydrogen--a light gas--would not be able to escape the gravity of a bigger earth. The result? Earth's atmosphere would kill us because of the accumulation of hydrogen. On the other hand, if earth were slightly smaller, life-sustaining oxygen would escape and surface water would evaporate. In this case, we would also die.

Furthermore, the earth is at an ideal distance from the sun. Both astronomer John Barrow and mathematician Frank Tipler studied "the ratio of the Earth's radius and distance from the Sun" and concluded that human life would not exist "were this ratio slightly different from what it is observed to be." (Source: The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, by John D. Barrow and Frank J. Tipler, copyright 1986, Oxford University Press)

In his book, Professor David L. Block wrote: "Calculations show that had the earth been situated only 5 percent closer to the sun, a runaway greenhouse effect [overheating of the earth] would have occurred about 4000 million years ago. If, on the other hand, the earth were placed only 1 percent further from the sun, runaway glaciation [huge sheets of ice covering much of the globe] would have occurred some 2000 million years ago." (Source: Our Universe: Accident Or Design? by David L. Block (1992)

I'm no scientist, but this is simply wrong. The stuff that everything is made of is comprised of the same stuff in different arrangements. The periodic table is periodic because if you add a neutron or an electron, you can predict the outcome. that is what science does.

This does not require a divine intelligence. It just requires things doing what things do.

No matter what you do to the elements, they are what they are and the react as they react.

It never changes and it never gets creative. If it did, that would be the signature of an Intelligent designer.

What put these things in motion ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

CCMR - Ask A Scientist!

Here's why the earth rotates.

I happily await your very scientific link that's had many scientists contribute to it, that shows how sin brought about non perfect conditions.

Don't you find it funny that the planet turning on the right axis and at the right speed or do you concern yourself with such thinking ?

I don't know why you are hung up on this. This proves what it states and nothing at all beyond or because of it.

Life would have a problem without precise timing no ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

One of the philosophers I read compared the argument that proceeded from God as a chain hanging from a ceiling and without God as the first link, that chain would fall.

The obvious question being what is holding up the first link?

It has nothing to do with you lying or not lying. Arguing logic in matters of faith eventually abandons logic in favor of faith. If the basis of all of your arguments is faith, then building a logical argument on that base is silly.

If you believe, you do. If you don't, you don't. Solving riddles is not divine.

But they were not homo sapien.

Human is human.

Not at all. There were various differences between Neandertal and Homo Sapien.

It would be as accurate to say dog is dog or horse is horse. Of course, of course.

It is not at all accurate. No more than saying that any of the other human strains that rose and disappeared were.

Yes their are different traits but a dog is a dog as a human is a human.

There are not different families of humans or dogs.

 

[Skull Pilot]

There is nothing really precise about nature.

The human body is full of design flaws. The fact that we breathe and eat via the same route has caused countless deaths.

The heart and genitals are not very well protected

Do I even have to mention the birth canal and the millions upon millions of women who have died in childbirth because of that particularly poor design?

Evolution is nothing but a series of just good enough fixes that take the least amount of energy and change resulting in a slightly better chance to survive and procreate.

How many bad genes have been transferred to the whole human family over the years ?

so it's your contention that these design flaws were not present in the original versions of humans you believe were made from mud?

 

[JimBowie1958]

Saying that the body has design flaws is meaningless as three facts would suggest to anyone that gives it some thought.
1. There is nothing perfect; there are only things that are best adapted to a specific environment.

2.Things that seem to be bad adaptations in one environment might make perfect sense in another.

3. Those features of a body that seem redundant or poorly evolved may have functionality but we are not knowledgeable emough or creative enough to grasp what that functionality is.

Overall, the human body is ther most adaptive to the broadest range of environment of any animal species.

That would hardly seem like bad evolution.

 

[JimBowie1958]

There is nothing really precise about nature.

The human body is full of design flaws. The fact that we breathe and eat via the same route has caused countless deaths.

The heart and genitals are not very well protected

Do I even have to mention the birth canal and the millions upon millions of women who have died in childbirth because of that particularly poor design?

Evolution is nothing but a series of just good enough fixes that take the least amount of energy and change resulting in a slightly better chance to survive and procreate.

Bullshit.

There are evolutionary advantages to evrything about us, including our life spans and death, that make our species more survivable.

If, for example there really were an advantage two having a seperate intake for food and another for food, then we would have been displaced by a species that did, just like we evolved two ears. Perhaps it is more survivable to have only one intake because it reduces bacterial entry or that arrangement is easir to keep clear.

Just because it doesnt make sense to sone 22nd century geek means only the geek is lacking imagination.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Saying that the body has design flaws is meaningless as three facts would suggest to anyone that gives it some thought.
1. There is nothing perfect; there are only things that are best adapted to a specific environment.

2.Things that seem to be bad adaptations in one environment might make perfect sense in another.

3. Those features of a body that seem redundant or poorly evolved may have functionality but we are not knowledgeable emough or creative enough to grasp what that functionality is.

Overall, the human body is ther most adaptive to the broadest range of environment of any animal species.

That would hardly seem like bad evolution.

The reason there are such glaring design flaws is that we evolved.

I was merely pointing out that there is no precision in nature. If there was we'd look a lot different than we do.

 

[Skull Pilot]

There is nothing really precise about nature.

The human body is full of design flaws. The fact that we breathe and eat via the same route has caused countless deaths.

The heart and genitals are not very well protected

Do I even have to mention the birth canal and the millions upon millions of women who have died in childbirth because of that particularly poor design?

Evolution is nothing but a series of just good enough fixes that take the least amount of energy and change resulting in a slightly better chance to survive and procreate.

Bullshit.

There are evolutionary advantages to evrything about us, including our life spans and death, that make our species more survivable.

If, for example there really were an advantage two having a seperate intake for food and another for food, then we would have been displaced by a species that did, just like we evolved two ears. Perhaps it is more survivable to have only one intake because it reduces bacterial entry or that arrangement is easir to keep clear.

Just because it doesnt make sense to sone 22nd century geek means only the geek is lacking imagination.

An evolutionary advantage can be achieved with a quick not so perfect fix. If you think that all evolutionary changes result from precision then you are sorely mistaken.

 

[Dr.Drock]

Another YWC discussion and again it turns into a "The Bible is proof of the Bible" blathering.

I'm trying to lower my standards as much as I can. Give me any scientific evidence, hell it can be crazy shit, just anything remotely scientific to try to marginally back some semblance of your claim.

So why is everything in a state of decay ?

This natural process that caused man to get better and better still we grow old and die. Why ?

Why does everything start out healthy and good unless affected by bad genes and eventually dies ?

Natural selection is the reason for that.

See how this works? We use science to answer questions when having a scientific discussion. Please take note and make the adjustment for the future. Grown up science discussions don't include "The Bible is proof of the Bible."

 

[Youwerecreated]

So all life that lives on this planet is evolved or designed to live on this planet?

This proves nothing for your case.

Awful lot of coicidences with precise timing to believe everything evolved in a natural way. Because animals and humans have the ability to adapt does not prove they evolved from another family. It takes faith to believe accident upon accident accumulated into what we see now.

You are saying that all things were poofed into existence as they are and that they were perfect and yet that perfection is constantly changing and diverging from the perfection.

It is up to you to ignore all that proves this to be false or not.

It seems far more reasonable to me that very small changes from one generation to the next can make a very different current example.

It also seem s very reasonable that if the progression was from single cell animals to very complex animals like us, there would be remnants to indicate the the Single cell was the basis. We find this in the fact there is DNA in every single cell in every single body.

I said this before, but that seems a tad redundant for a thing that was poofed into existence.

No what i'm saying is once sin began perfection was lost and we did not diverge from perfection we lost the chance of perfection. What has happened is over the years there have been more and more birth defects and disease passed on through bad mutations.

This planet and the universe has experienced imperfection ever since sin began and we see it with catastrophic weather and natural disasters. Not what was meant by the creator.

Yes evidence shows we got here through a poof method not a totally natural process.

Example pretty simple one,what came first the chicken or the egg ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

Goldilocks.

You didn't respond to the question why most all planets spin one direction and a few others spin the opposite direction ?

Nor the question if everything originated from the big bang why did only one planet end up with conditions that would sustain life ? Just another coincidence ?

We know of only one planet with life. This does not preclude the possibility that there is one or a billion and one out there.

There are a bunch of right handed people and fewer left handed people. I don't see how the direction of the earth's rotation has any bearing on anything connected to this consideration.

If the big bang scattered all the elements through space would not the universe be filled with life ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

It's pretty likely that oxygen was not around before life. Plants eat CO2 and waste out O.

There had to be some pretty significant planet forming before mammals could have drawn their first breath.

How do you know there was no oxygen on this planet when life began ? The real reason you want to hold on to this view is because you know the building blocks of life amino acids could not have formed in that enviornment.

Did you know rocks contain oxygen ?

I have no stake in the Amino Acid thingy at all. Don't really care. My conjecture about the CO2 relies on the fact that the things that first gained life ate CO2. It is reasonable to assume that life that found success would thrive on whatever was most plentiful to eat.

It is true today that if the food source for anything goes away, so does that thing. If the food source stays plentiful, life is good.

I have read that the atmosphere was rich in CO2 early on, but that just stoked the thought in my mind about why plants would rise as eaters of CO2 and I'm a little in awe of the fact that little tiny organisms changed the planet.

In terms of what they did to the planet, what we are dong is small potatoes.

Well you should have some understanding concerning amino axcids since they are the building blocks to life. They could not form in an enviornment absent of life. They could not form in water but need water to be formed. They could not be formed in an enviornment that contains oxygen they would be destroyed.

Life had to be formed first for amino acids to exist. How could that happed if it was not by a poof process ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

There is nothing really precise about nature.

The human body is full of design flaws. The fact that we breathe and eat via the same route has caused countless deaths.

The heart and genitals are not very well protected

Do I even have to mention the birth canal and the millions upon millions of women who have died in childbirth because of that particularly poor design?

Evolution is nothing but a series of just good enough fixes that take the least amount of energy and change resulting in a slightly better chance to survive and procreate.

How many bad genes have been transferred to the whole human family over the years ?

so it's your contention that these design flaws were not present in the original versions of humans you believe were made from mud?

Yes i believe any flaws that are truly flaws came from our imperfection handed down from adam and eve that is correct.

Mud ? not sure about that one,but your side believes we came from a primordial soup.

 

[Youwerecreated]

Saying that the body has design flaws is meaningless as three facts would suggest to anyone that gives it some thought.
1. There is nothing perfect; there are only things that are best adapted to a specific environment.

2.Things that seem to be bad adaptations in one environment might make perfect sense in another.

3. Those features of a body that seem redundant or poorly evolved may have functionality but we are not knowledgeable emough or creative enough to grasp what that functionality is.

Overall, the human body is ther most adaptive to the broadest range of environment of any animal species.

That would hardly seem like bad evolution.

The reason there are such glaring design flaws is that we evolved.

I was merely pointing out that there is no precision in nature. If there was we'd look a lot different than we do.

Design flaws would come from traits passed on from generation to generation no ?

 

[Youwerecreated]

There is nothing really precise about nature.

The human body is full of design flaws. The fact that we breathe and eat via the same route has caused countless deaths.

The heart and genitals are not very well protected

Do I even have to mention the birth canal and the millions upon millions of women who have died in childbirth because of that particularly poor design?

Evolution is nothing but a series of just good enough fixes that take the least amount of energy and change resulting in a slightly better chance to survive and procreate.

Bullshit.

There are evolutionary advantages to evrything about us, including our life spans and death, that make our species more survivable.

If, for example there really were an advantage two having a seperate intake for food and another for food, then we would have been displaced by a species that did, just like we evolved two ears. Perhaps it is more survivable to have only one intake because it reduces bacterial entry or that arrangement is easir to keep clear.

Just because it doesnt make sense to sone 22nd century geek means only the geek is lacking imagination.

An evolutionary advantage can be achieved with a quick not so perfect fix. If you think that all evolutionary changes result from precision then you are sorely mistaken.

Tell me how a giraffe could slowly evolve and survive it's surroundings ? Remember us discussing this ?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Saying that the body has design flaws is meaningless as three facts would suggest to anyone that gives it some thought.
1. There is nothing perfect; there are only things that are best adapted to a specific environment.

2.Things that seem to be bad adaptations in one environment might make perfect sense in another.

3. Those features of a body that seem redundant or poorly evolved may have functionality but we are not knowledgeable emough or creative enough to grasp what that functionality is.

Overall, the human body is ther most adaptive to the broadest range of environment of any animal species.

That would hardly seem like bad evolution.

The reason there are such glaring design flaws is that we evolved.

I was merely pointing out that there is no precision in nature. If there was we'd look a lot different than we do.

Design flaws would come from traits passed on from generation to generation no ?

So you're saying the birth canal in women was once different and better in Eve than it is today and that women never died in childbirth because of that particular design flaw?

Face it if you believe in the creation myth then you have to admit that your perfect god created some pretty poorly designed people

And if you believe we are created in god's image then he too must not be perfect.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

You can't see precise in nature like a hydrolgic system ? or how bout the formation of a cell ?

How bout the formation of a human ? How bout a peacock or a mallard duck ? looks like they were painted.

How bout the big cat family ?

How bout the four seasons we exp ?

How bout we can count on the sun to rise every day ?

How bout having just the right amount of gravity present on one planet ?

How bout one planmet being able to sustain life ?

Just think of all the things i didn't bring up.

Because we are not under perfect conditions there is no designer ?well the bible gives you an answer as to why. So YOU Don't see precision in nature ? Open your eyes.

So all life that lives on this planet is evolved or designed to live on this planet?

This proves nothing for your case.

Awful lot of coicidences with precise timing to believe everything evolved in a natural way. Because animals and humans have the ability to adapt does not prove they evolved from another family. It takes faith to believe accident upon accident accumulated into what we see now.

We don't need faith to believe that, we have evidence. You need faith the believe in the opposite, you have no evidence.