Punished by Rewards

[Sky Dancer]

If you love NVC so much, why don't you practice it?

If you modeled it for us, perhaps that would help us with our internal motivation.


Preaching it but not practicing is doing the cause more harm than good as it adds to resistance to the ideas you present.

Well, I'm not accomplished at it. I doubt anyone here has the patience for me to learn it.

What it would involve is learning about what myself and others need and then determining how to meet those needs in a win win way.

It also involves understanding that some behavior occurs that isn't desirable, but is the best way a person knows how to meet their needs.

Let's say I have a need to share something I'm newly learning about, so I start a thread about it. Someone else comes into the thread with a different need. I don't know what those needs are unless I ask everyone. Some people don't know what they need, but have to be helped to figure it out.

You have to learn what your needs and values are to switch your behavior over to a Non-Violent Communication model.

I'm very newly learning about this--instrinsic motivation and Non-violent Communication.

I could start with you, Amelia. What needs of yours are satisfied by posting in this thread? What are your values?

I'm not interested in NVC. Not to the extent that I wish to discuss it with you.

I was somewhat interested in the idea about the sometimes paradoxical relationship between reward and motivation. My interest in that was dampened by my realization that the topic seemed to be just another way for you to preach about the NVC you don't seem to grasp at all.


My interest at the time I began posting in the thread was to back up Sherry's moderate and rational input. I had sent her a rep. Then on a whim I posted my snarky little cartoon. So then I decided to post something more constructive, to make my support of Sherry public and because I felt a little sorry about the cartoon.


I've made my support for Sherry's input clear and I don't foresee any other needs of mine being met by active participation in the thread. Not ruling it out, but don't see it as likely.



By the way, in case you haven't noticed, your repeated references to NVC are not conducive to good discussions. Perhaps it would be helpful if you would practice it for a few months without talking about it among with political forumites who have all-too-often seen you make public resolutions only to break them in very short order. Your public resolutions seem counterproductive in general. This one seems so in particular.

This post is a good illustration of carrot and stick manipulation.

 

[Sherry]

It's too bad you can't write a post without using an insult. I'd much rather discuss this interesting topic on it's own merit.

Extrinsic rewards are manipulative. They work in the short term, but not in the long term.

Intrinsic rewards work more effectively. This is a paradigm shift in education. It's the direction I'd like to increasingly move my own life toward.

Life affirming, not manipulation by carrot and stick.

Wait... and your method is not?

We are all born with the inner desire for freedom. We don't like to be restricted or controlled. We want to determine our own destiny. This is human nature.

Anytime we try to control another person's behavior, no matter how subtly, we are discounting the person's right to their autonomy. Even rewarding is a subtle attempt to control another person's behavior. The people who are most susceptible to this are those with a high need for freedom. They will smell the manipulation attempt from a mile away and will resist your attempts to control them.

We are all born with a desire to accomplish things. Traditional manipulative methods of reward and punishment have reduced that desire.

Actually there are many studies, particularly in early childhood development, that demonstrate children have a desire and need for boundaries. They perform at a higher level with less stress when the expectations and consequences are clearly outlined.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Kohn's work is compatible with Non-Violent Communication. That's why I'm interested in it.

I was very surprised to hear Rosenberg use this intrinsic motivation approach with a repeat child abuse offender. His idea was to find what was motivating the pedophile, and to help him find better ways to meet his needs at less cost to himself and others.

In this case, it's not that the law is replaced. The child abuser is still in prison, where he belongs. It's that now, we all understand more about why people do the unthinkable. The child abuser has more insight into himself and we have more insight into his behavior.

And has proven that Rosenberg's theories work because he hasn't molested any more children.

Wait, didn't you say he is in prison? Do you think it is remotely possible that the child abuser understands the system, and knows that if he cooperates with Rosenberg he has a better chance of getting out? Wouldn't that make his real motivation for the insight he suddenly has something other than what you are trying to say it is?

Hate to say this Sky, but that was absolutely the worst possible example you could possibly use to make your point.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Boundaries are helpful. That's a different topic than eliminating reward and punishment manipulation.

 

[Sherry]

Boundaries are helpful. That's a different topic than eliminating reward and punishment manipulation.

I knew you wouldn't put me on ignore.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Kohn's work is compatible with Non-Violent Communication. That's why I'm interested in it.

I was very surprised to hear Rosenberg use this intrinsic motivation approach with a repeat child abuse offender. His idea was to find what was motivating the pedophile, and to help him find better ways to meet his needs at less cost to himself and others.

In this case, it's not that the law is replaced. The child abuser is still in prison, where he belongs. It's that now, we all understand more about why people do the unthinkable. The child abuser has more insight into himself and we have more insight into his behavior.

And has proven that Rosenberg's theories work because he hasn't molested any more children.

Wait, didn't you say he is in prison? Do you think it is remotely possible that the child abuser understands the system, and knows that if he cooperates with Rosenberg he has a better chance of getting out? Wouldn't that make his real motivation for the insight he suddenly has something other than what you are trying to say it is?

Hate to say this Sky, but that was absolutely the worst possible example you could possibly use to make your point.

I knew it was a dangerous example. Talking about pedophiles in any way other than "let's string em all up" is ill advised on a forum like this.

The example really surprised me when I heard about it. I'd never considered asking a criminal what motivated them, what need were they trying to fulfill that the illegal behavior was trying to get at?

I never considered trying to help someone find a way to meet their needs at less cost to themselves and others would help criminals.

It just gives me something to think about. It's not like this offender was getting out of prison because Rosenberg helped him have an insight into his behavior.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Kohn's work is compatible with Non-Violent Communication. That's why I'm interested in it.

I was very surprised to hear Rosenberg use this intrinsic motivation approach with a repeat child abuse offender. His idea was to find what was motivating the pedophile, and to help him find better ways to meet his needs at less cost to himself and others.

In this case, it's not that the law is replaced. The child abuser is still in prison, where he belongs. It's that now, we all understand more about why people do the unthinkable. The child abuser has more insight into himself and we have more insight into his behavior.

And has proven that Rosenberg's theories work because he hasn't molested any more children.

Wait, didn't you say he is in prison? Do you think it is remotely possible that the child abuser understands the system, and knows that if he cooperates with Rosenberg he has a better chance of getting out? Wouldn't that make his real motivation for the insight he suddenly has something other than what you are trying to say it is?

Hate to say this Sky, but that was absolutely the worst possible example you could possibly use to make your point.

I knew it was a dangerous example. Talking about pedophiles in any way other than "let's string em all up" is ill advised on a forum like this.

The example really surprised me when I heard about it. I'd never considered asking a criminal what motivated them, what need were they trying to fulfill that the illegal behavior was trying to get at?

I never considered trying to help someone find a way to meet their needs at less cost to themselves and others would help criminals.

It just gives me something to think about. It's not like this offender was getting out of prison because Rosenberg helped him have an insight into his behavior.

Pedophiles are motivated by wanting to have sex with children. There is some psychobabble about a circle of abuse and how we could fix everything if we could just end all child abuse, but the same people that tell me that also tell me that sexual orientation is perfectly natural and innate if we are talking about homosexuality. My ancestors had a saying about forked tongues that applies to people like that.

 

[Sky Dancer]

And has proven that Rosenberg's theories work because he hasn't molested any more children.

Wait, didn't you say he is in prison? Do you think it is remotely possible that the child abuser understands the system, and knows that if he cooperates with Rosenberg he has a better chance of getting out? Wouldn't that make his real motivation for the insight he suddenly has something other than what you are trying to say it is?

Hate to say this Sky, but that was absolutely the worst possible example you could possibly use to make your point.

I knew it was a dangerous example. Talking about pedophiles in any way other than "let's string em all up" is ill advised on a forum like this.

The example really surprised me when I heard about it. I'd never considered asking a criminal what motivated them, what need were they trying to fulfill that the illegal behavior was trying to get at?

I never considered trying to help someone find a way to meet their needs at less cost to themselves and others would help criminals.

It just gives me something to think about. It's not like this offender was getting out of prison because Rosenberg helped him have an insight into his behavior.

Pedophiles are motivated by wanting to have sex with children. There is some psychobabble about a circle of abuse and how we could fix everything if we could just end all child abuse, but the same people that tell me that also tell me that sexual orientation is perfectly natural and innate if we are talking about homosexuality. My ancestors had a saying about forked tongues that applies to people like that.

Actually, there was a bit more to it than that. It wasn't really about the sex with children, the reason he did it. He was trying to meet other needs, non-sexual needs, by molesting children.

I thought to myself, that if someone had helped this man know his needs and find ways to meet those needs at less cost to himself and others, how much better society would be served.

 

[chanel]

Some people are intrinsically motivate and some are not. Some are born with high intelligence. Some are not. Some are innately good. Some are not.

Support and praise can be considered "extrinsic" motivators. How does Kohn feel about that?

It's all a bunch of hogwash. Children need to be "taught" to excel in what they love and do things that they may hate. And believe it or not, interests and abilities can and do change.

Changing the paradigm is utopian nonsense.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Rather than being told what I am, positive or negative, praise or blame, I'd much rather someone point out what I did, and how they felt about it.

Of course, we all have our own way of looking at things.

 

[Amelia]

Well, I'm not accomplished at it. I doubt anyone here has the patience for me to learn it.

What it would involve is learning about what myself and others need and then determining how to meet those needs in a win win way.

It also involves understanding that some behavior occurs that isn't desirable, but is the best way a person knows how to meet their needs.

Let's say I have a need to share something I'm newly learning about, so I start a thread about it. Someone else comes into the thread with a different need. I don't know what those needs are unless I ask everyone. Some people don't know what they need, but have to be helped to figure it out.

You have to learn what your needs and values are to switch your behavior over to a Non-Violent Communication model.

I'm very newly learning about this--instrinsic motivation and Non-violent Communication.

I could start with you, Amelia. What needs of yours are satisfied by posting in this thread? What are your values?

I'm not interested in NVC. Not to the extent that I wish to discuss it with you.

I was somewhat interested in the idea about the sometimes paradoxical relationship between reward and motivation. My interest in that was dampened by my realization that the topic seemed to be just another way for you to preach about the NVC you don't seem to grasp at all.


My interest at the time I began posting in the thread was to back up Sherry's moderate and rational input. I had sent her a rep. Then on a whim I posted my snarky little cartoon. So then I decided to post something more constructive, to make my support of Sherry public and because I felt a little sorry about the cartoon.


I've made my support for Sherry's input clear and I don't foresee any other needs of mine being met by active participation in the thread. Not ruling it out, but don't see it as likely.



By the way, in case you haven't noticed, your repeated references to NVC are not conducive to good discussions. Perhaps it would be helpful if you would practice it for a few months without talking about it among with political forumites who have all-too-often seen you make public resolutions only to break them in very short order. Your public resolutions seem counterproductive in general. This one seems so in particular.

This post is a good illustration of carrot and stick manipulation.

Carrot and stick? I offered you no carrot. There is no stick.

I answered your question about my "needs" and I made what I consider some accurate observations.


1) Your repeated announcements of your resolutions - which you then break, sometimes in a matter of minutes - frustrate onlookers, invite mockery, and do not appear to help you live up to those resolutions.

2) By repeating the same cycle of announcing your resolution, discussing at length the theory of what you are trying, and then failing conspicuously to live up to your resolutions, you are inviting the predictable mockery which then leads to another round of resolutions, ad nauseum.

3) Since you are unwilling to break this cycle wherein you set yourself up for failure, there must be something you are gaining from it, with "gain" defined loosely.



Now that I have realized how deeply committed you are to this self-destructive behavior, I step away to join the dozens of other people who are over there on the sideline telling me "told you so".

 

[Sky Dancer]

You don't discuss your own feelings and needs, Amelia. Your post is judging and manipulative. It's full of what you think is wrong with me and what I should do to fix it for you. Your so-called "observations" are off topic and irrelevant.
I am not the thread topic. NVC isn't the thread topic. The thread is about Alfie Kohn's book and view that intrinsic motivation is superior to extrinsic motivation. Kohn has researched this and provides evidence. Counter Kohn's evidence and address content related to the topic.

Kohn asks the question, "What do kids need - and how can we meet those needs?" Kohn's view is that children working for 'approval only' or 'absence of punishment' suffer damage.

If you're not interested in the topic, then go back to the Flame Zone and take your judgments and criticism there.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Kid's end up feeling as though they are good people only when they are praised, only when they are compliant. Then they have no sense of ownership over their accomplishments.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I knew it was a dangerous example. Talking about pedophiles in any way other than "let's string em all up" is ill advised on a forum like this.

The example really surprised me when I heard about it. I'd never considered asking a criminal what motivated them, what need were they trying to fulfill that the illegal behavior was trying to get at?

I never considered trying to help someone find a way to meet their needs at less cost to themselves and others would help criminals.

It just gives me something to think about. It's not like this offender was getting out of prison because Rosenberg helped him have an insight into his behavior.

Pedophiles are motivated by wanting to have sex with children. There is some psychobabble about a circle of abuse and how we could fix everything if we could just end all child abuse, but the same people that tell me that also tell me that sexual orientation is perfectly natural and innate if we are talking about homosexuality. My ancestors had a saying about forked tongues that applies to people like that.

Actually, there was a bit more to it than that. It wasn't really about the sex with children, the reason he did it. He was trying to meet other needs, non-sexual needs, by molesting children.

I thought to myself, that if someone had helped this man know his needs and find ways to meet those needs at less cost to himself and others, how much better society would be served.

So he claims. Like I pointed out earlier, there are a lot of potential rewards for a pedophile in prison to say things that doctors and parole board members want to here, and a lot of punishments if they don't. I didn't point out that this is the worst example because the guy is a pedophile, I pointed it out because of all the extraneous factors to make the professed change of heart extremely questionable, even if the prisoner is not ever going to be eligible for parole. Prison is the ultimate example of rewards and punishments attempting to influence behavior.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Pedophiles are motivated by wanting to have sex with children. There is some psychobabble about a circle of abuse and how we could fix everything if we could just end all child abuse, but the same people that tell me that also tell me that sexual orientation is perfectly natural and innate if we are talking about homosexuality. My ancestors had a saying about forked tongues that applies to people like that.

Actually, there was a bit more to it than that. It wasn't really about the sex with children, the reason he did it. He was trying to meet other needs, non-sexual needs, by molesting children.

I thought to myself, that if someone had helped this man know his needs and find ways to meet those needs at less cost to himself and others, how much better society would be served.

So he claims. Like I pointed out earlier, there are a lot of potential rewards for a pedophile in prison to say things that doctors and parole board members want to here, and a lot of punishments if they don't. I didn't point out that this is the worst example because the guy is a pedophile, I pointed it out because of all the extraneous factors to make the professed change of heart extremely questionable, even if the prisoner is not ever going to be eligible for parole. Prison is the ultimate example of rewards and punishments attempting to influence behavior.

Sure. It's entirely feasible that just because the man happens to reside in prison, that he is incapable of insight into his behavior. Marshall Rosenberg tells the story of his conversation with a imprisoned pedophile in his book, Speaking Peace. This guy was on his third prison stint for his behavior.

 

[alan1]

You don't discuss your own feelings and needs, Amelia. Your post is judging and manipulative. It's full of what you think is wrong with me and what I should do to fix it for you. Your so-called "observations" are off topic and irrelevant.
I am not the thread topic. NVC isn't the thread topic. The thread is about Alfie Kohn's book and view that intrinsic motivation is superior to extrinsic motivation. Kohn has researched this and provides evidence. Counter Kohn's evidence and address content related to the topic.

Kohn asks the question, "What do kids need - and how can we meet those needs?" Kohn's view is that children working for 'approval only' or 'absence of punishment' suffer damage.

If you're not interested in the topic, then go back to the Flame Zone and take your judgments and criticism there.

Hypocrisy or irony, you be the judge. (pun intended)

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Actually, there was a bit more to it than that. It wasn't really about the sex with children, the reason he did it. He was trying to meet other needs, non-sexual needs, by molesting children.

I thought to myself, that if someone had helped this man know his needs and find ways to meet those needs at less cost to himself and others, how much better society would be served.

So he claims. Like I pointed out earlier, there are a lot of potential rewards for a pedophile in prison to say things that doctors and parole board members want to here, and a lot of punishments if they don't. I didn't point out that this is the worst example because the guy is a pedophile, I pointed it out because of all the extraneous factors to make the professed change of heart extremely questionable, even if the prisoner is not ever going to be eligible for parole. Prison is the ultimate example of rewards and punishments attempting to influence behavior.

Sure. It's entirely feasible that just because the man happens to reside in prison, that he is incapable of insight into his behavior. Marshall Rosenberg tells the story of his conversation with a imprisoned pedophile in his book, Speaking Peace. This guy was on his third prison stint for his behavior.

Yep, that is what I said, he is incapable of insight.

For the record, what I said is that his insight is based on outside incentives to confirm to expected norms because of the carrot/stick incentive structure of prison.

 

[daveman]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

Consider the story of Tom Sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

Yeah, my landlord will not accept a good feeling I get for doing a good job at work. He wants money.

Is that unreasonable of him?

 

[Sky Dancer]

great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that sky lives in.

consider the story of tom sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

yeah, my landlord will not accept a good feeling i get for doing a good job at work. He wants money.

Is that unreasonable of him?

no.

 

[Sky Dancer]

So he claims. Like I pointed out earlier, there are a lot of potential rewards for a pedophile in prison to say things that doctors and parole board members want to here, and a lot of punishments if they don't. I didn't point out that this is the worst example because the guy is a pedophile, I pointed it out because of all the extraneous factors to make the professed change of heart extremely questionable, even if the prisoner is not ever going to be eligible for parole. Prison is the ultimate example of rewards and punishments attempting to influence behavior.

Sure. It's entirely feasible that just because the man happens to reside in prison, that he is incapable of insight into his behavior. Marshall Rosenberg tells the story of his conversation with a imprisoned pedophile in his book, Speaking Peace. This guy was on his third prison stint for his behavior.

Yep, that is what I said, he is incapable of insight.

For the record, what I said is that his insight is based on outside incentives to confirm to expected norms because of the carrot/stick incentive structure of prison.

You're assuming the guy's insight would in any way mitigate his punishment. The answer is not.

The insights nonetheless are of benefit to anyone who'd like to prevent someone like him from acting out.