Zone1 Question for Christians.

[hadit]

And again, for those leaving the Catholic Church, what do they care? They have decided they can change whatever they want instead of following/adhering to the traditions handed down by the Apostles. It was decided during the Protestant Reformation people can make up their own rules.

Catholics decided to remain with the practices decided by the Apostles.

You are not arguing with the Church. You are arguing that you have just as much right as any Apostle to choose how things will be done. That's not the Church's fight, that's your fight.

That is not correct. We go by our church traditions that were developed by our church fathers after careful Bible study and through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. They looked into the Scriptures to see what they said was commanded, what was alluded to, and what was just manmade. Those things that were not commanded were open to challenge and should give way to what is necessary. Even the founder of my childhood denomination didn't get everything right and we see a lot of things he founded thrown aside.

 

[hadit]

I belong to another church. Why would I suddenly decide to go to another? To do things my way?

No, to visit a close friend who invites you to participate in their worship service. If they consecrated the communion, would you go and experience it?

 

[hadit]

Catholics don't make up your rules. You left "the Catholic thing" so that you didn't have to follow those traditions. You still don't want to reunite with the Catholic Church; you want to do what you want in your way which is your choice as you have free will.

I want all denominations to truly unite under Christ while you want all denominations to become Catholic, no compromise from you. No, I don't want to "unite" with the Catholic church if it means I have to become Catholic, change everything and they refuse to change anything.

 

[hadit]

FEELS... ?

Through the Holy Spirit. If he is compelled by God to do this for his flock. Would you attend such a service, or would you avoid it because it's not done the "Catholic" way?

 

[Meriweather]

No, to visit a close friend who invites you to participate in their worship service. If they consecrated the communion, would you go and experience it?

As a Catholic, I attend Mass. I receive Communion. Therefore, I would not be able to receive communion again.

 

[Meriweather]

Through the Holy Spirit. If he is compelled by God to do this for his flock. Would you attend such a service, or would you avoid it because it's not done the "Catholic" way?

Again, I am Catholic. I attend Mass first and foremost. I have attended Jewish, Lutheran, and Presbyterian, all secondary.

 

[hadit]

Authority to whom? Catholic priests are following Christ and the Apostles as closely as they can as they see only Christ as the authority, and Apostolic traditions as as close as we can know the practices of Christ.

The Protestant pastor is also following Christ as closely as he can, and he also sees Christ as the authority. You said only special priests can do the consecration, so the pastor would be at that same level of specialness and able to do it. Would you take communion from him, or would you insist that it had to only and forever be "Catholic"?

 

[hadit]

As a Catholic, I attend Mass. I receive Communion. Therefore, I would not be able to receive communion again.

So, ultimately, to you Catholic supersedes everything. That's sad and puts an artificial barrier between you and the rest of the Body.

 

[hadit]

Again, I am Catholic. I attend Mass first and foremost. I have attended Jewish, Lutheran, and Presbyterian, all secondary.

But you would not commune with them and the Lord.

 

[Meriweather]

So, ultimately, to you Catholic supersedes everything. That's sad and puts an artificial barrier between you and the rest of the Body.

What barrier?

But you would not commune with them and the Lord.

Where two or three are gathered in my name, the Lord is with them. Why wouldn't God be with me for attending both services?

 

[ding]

to you Catholic supersedes everything

Maybe that's how an apostate would see it but Catholics don't see it that way. For a person who claims to want to unite others you sure do a good job of dividing others.

 

[Meriweather]

The Protestant pastor is also following Christ as closely as he can, and he also sees Christ as the authority. You said only special priests can do the consecration, so the pastor would be at that same level of specialness and able to do it. Would you take communion from him, or would you insist that it had to only and forever be "Catholic"?

If the Protestant pastor is following Christ as closely as he can, why doesn't he follow the same path to ordination that have been followed by priests for two thousand years? Isn't it because he is following his own feelings? He feels what is in the Bible is good enough. He feels the traditions that were being followed before the Bible was written may be dismissed--and those are his choices. If he didn't feel right about them, he would have made other choices.

I am okay--and prefer--to follow traditions. I can link today's priests to the Apostles to the Levi's to the fathers--the tradition that some are anointed to perform a special service, and in following those traditions I become part of a much greater story. Frodo Baggins doesn't leap from The Lord of the Rings into the story of the Poky Little Puppy, then take a side trip through Star Wars before returning to Mount Doom.

If there were no Catholic Faith, I would choose to become Orthodox. No Orthodox faith? Then I would choose to become Coptic. Both are part of the story I'm in. No Coptic faith? Then I would follow the Jewish faith. None of these throw out the parts of the story that don't suit them.

This, in no way, makes me "superior" (a word you seem to like to toss around) to Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Quakers or Protestants. It means I made a different choice. We can use virtues as an analogy. If I am only sometimes truthful, based on how I feel, can it be said I am virtuous when it comes to telling the truth? If I persevere a couple of times, can it be said of me that I don't give up when things get tough? If I once score one touchdown does that make me a star football player? In the same way, If I am Catholic, can I be a "sometimes" Catholic?

You seem to be urging me to become a "sometimes" Catholic, and that if I don't become a sometimes Catholic, you feel you have the right to accuse me of feeling superior, even when feeling that way never crossed my mind. What is always at the front of my mind is that God meets each one of us where we are and works from there to draw us closer to Himself. For all I know Catholicism is in the furthest corner, but also what I know is that God is there with me, drawing me ever closer. Sometimes he brings an atheist or two (who never became believers) along with me.

 

[hadit]

What barrier?

The artificial one you've constructed that prevents you from communing with non-Catholics and the Lord.

Where two or three are gathered in my name, the Lord is with them. Why wouldn't God be with me for attending both services?

You wouldn't celebrate communion with them, even though they consecrated the communion, simply because they are non-Catholic. Isn't that what you told me?

 

[hadit]

If the Protestant pastor is following Christ as closely as he can, why doesn't he follow the same path to ordination that have been followed by priests for two thousand years? Isn't it because he is following his own feelings? He feels what is in the Bible is good enough. He feels the traditions that were being followed before the Bible was written may be dismissed--and those are his choices. If he didn't feel right about them, he would have made other choices.

I am okay--and prefer--to follow traditions. I can link today's priests to the Apostles to the Levi's to the fathers--the tradition that some are anointed to perform a special service, and in following those traditions I become part of a much greater story. Frodo Baggins doesn't leap from The Lord of the Rings into the story of the Poky Little Puppy, then take a side trip through Star Wars before returning to Mount Doom.

If there were no Catholic Faith, I would choose to become Orthodox. No Orthodox faith? Then I would choose to become Coptic. Both are part of the story I'm in. No Coptic faith? Then I would follow the Jewish faith. None of these throw out the parts of the story that don't suit them.

Yet you happily throw out those faiths because you have the Catholic traditions.

This, in no way, makes me "superior" (a word you seem to like to toss around) to Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Quakers or Protestants.

Interesting that you choose to lump Protestants in with faiths that reject Jesus Christ.

It means I made a different choice. We can use virtues as an analogy. If I am only sometimes truthful, based on how I feel, can it be said I am virtuous when it comes to telling the truth? If I persevere a couple of times, can it be said of me that I don't give up when things get tough? If I once score one touchdown does that make me a star football player? In the same way, If I am Catholic, can I be a "sometimes" Catholic?

When you think of Christ's followers uniting, are they all becoming Catholic, or are Catholics letting go of things that are basic to salvation?

You seem to be urging me to become a "sometimes" Catholic, and that if I don't become a sometimes Catholic, you feel you have the right to accuse me of feeling superior, even when feeling that way never crossed my mind. What is always at the front of my mind is that God meets each one of us where we are and works from there to draw us closer to Himself. For all I know Catholicism is in the furthest corner, but also what I know is that God is there with me, drawing me ever closer. Sometimes he brings an atheist or two (who never became believers) along with me.

No, I'm urging you to look outside your Catholic traditions and find value in what others have experienced in Jesus Christ, to open yourself to non-Catholics, to share communion with them and the Lord. Right now, all I see from you about communion is basically you're not going to do it unless it's Catholic. That's sad.

 

[Carl in Michigan]

I want all denominations to truly unite under Christ while you want all denominations to become Catholic, no compromise from you. No, I don't want to "unite" with the Catholic church if it means I have to become Catholic, change everything and they refuse to change anything.

You don't change it you believe you understand the Word of God. She believes that as much as you do.
For me, as a Sabbatarian, I will never "unite" with Sunday keeping churches. They bow down to the authority of the Catholic Church

 

[Meriweather]

The artificial one you've constructed that prevents you from communing with non-Catholics and the Lord.

What do you mean by "communing"? Do you mean prayer and prayer services? Or are you solely focused on communion?

You wouldn't celebrate communion with them, even though they consecrated the communion, simply because they are non-Catholic. Isn't that what you told me?

No.

 

[Meriweather]

Yet you happily throw out those faiths because you have the Catholic traditions.

No.

Interesting that you choose to lump Protestants in with faiths that reject Jesus Christ.

Is it?

When you think of Christ's followers uniting, are they all becoming Catholic, or are Catholics letting go of things that are basic to salvation?

No.

No, I'm urging you to look outside your Catholic traditions and find value in what others have experienced in Jesus Christ, to open yourself to non-Catholics, to share communion with them and the Lord. Right now, all I see from you about communion is basically you're not going to do it unless it's Catholic. That's sad.

You may have forgotten half my family and most of my friends are Protestant. I know what they have experienced and I know what I have experienced. I would not/will not trade. Nor would they. This seems to bother you to know end. Doesn't bother any of us. They are good with leaving the Catholic faith; I am happy with remaining Catholic. I don't understand why this troubles you.

 

[Meriweather]

Right now, all I see from you about communion is basically you're not going to do it unless it's Catholic. That's sad.

Let's go to the foundation of what is Catholic. It is scripture, it is tradition, it is first fruits, it is both weekly and daily. It is joining Jesus in sacrifice, it is salvation and therefore duty. It is justice, giving God what is owed to Him. It is all.

The foundation of the Protestant faith was throwing out this, throwing out that. In some denominations, it is even throwing out duty in favor of, "Jesus did it all for me." Catholicism is not just looking at, celebrating, and offering what Jesus did for us, it is about all we can do for Jesus.

The reason I cannot be a non-Catholic Christian is because I cannot give up what I have in faith, in God, for less. For that reason, maybe Catholics represent the rich and maybe Protestants represent the poor. It is why, despite your claims that you throw at me constantly, I feel no superiority towards non-Catholic Christians. I am like the rich young man who turned away sadly, because he had much and it was not within himself to give it up. I know too many non-Catholic Christians who are...good.

 

[hadit]

Let's go to the foundation of what is Catholic. It is scripture, it is tradition, it is first fruits, it is both weekly and daily. It is joining Jesus in sacrifice, it is salvation and therefore duty. It is justice, giving God what is owed to Him. It is all.

The same can be said of non-Catholics that seek to identify the bedrock truth of Christianity, set aside what is not necessary and cling to what is. You believe Catholicism is the end-all and be-all of the Christian faith and all others are inferior. I see them as simply the efforts of different groups of people to apply Scripture to their lives. One group says that the way they did it a thousand years ago (not all the way back to the early church, or you would be living like first century Jews, still debating whether or not to insist Gentiles have to obey the Jewish Law) is the way it has to be forever. The other group allows that the application of Scriptural standards can change, as long as they reflect the original intent of those standards. They seek to obey the two most important commands as given by Jesus, which do not lay out in any detail how they are to be obeyed, because they don't have to.

The foundation of the Protestant faith was throwing out this, throwing out that.

And consider why they just might say, "You know, I can't find definitive Scriptural support for holding onto that. In fact, there's stronger support for a different idea or belief. This is causing our brothers to lose their faith and get discouraged. It's hampering our ability to get our message out the world, so let's do something different". And, as I'm pointing out in this post, you have a false understanding of the foundations of Protestant (or Anabaptist) belief.

In some denominations, it is even throwing out duty in favor of, "Jesus did it all for me."

Okay, you need to be honest here. No one is throwing out duty. We all can read Scripture where it says we are to care for our neighbors, especially our brothers. We all can read where it says we should take care of our leaders and make sure they have what they need. As for "Jesus did it all for me", you will not be able to convince me that I have to complete the work Christ began in me when Scripture says HE, NOT I will complete that work. It says He is faithful to do it, and I will not doubt the faithfulness of God's promise.

Yes, Christ did do it all for me and as a natural result I behave in different ways than I did before. People can look at my life and know that Jesus is living in me.

See, you are doing to us what you accuse us of doing to you, namely, looking at a tenet of our faith and building a strawman that you can then pummel. You don't like being accused of working to earn salvation, you shouldn't belittle another's belief that when Jesus said, "It is finished", He meant the whole deal was done, stick a fork in it, wrap it in a ribbon and tie a bow, it's done. All we have to do is receive it and live for Him, not ourselves anymore. You've even claimed you believe that Christ does the work of salvation and you don't, but here you are, putting down those who totally and completely rely on Him for salvation and not their own efforts. I find that false assessment to be insulting, quite frankly, because you have no understanding that someone can read the Scriptures for themselves and come to a different conclusion about some things than your church leaders did a thousand years ago. This is what I mean by my quest to peel away everything that is not bedrock Christianity, to find that irreducible core of understanding about which no one can disagree, because to disagree puts you outside Christianity.

Jesus died for my sin and rose from the dead to defeat sin and death. Because He did that, I can walk in newness of life, bottom line. Do you have to tie something Catholic to that to make it truer or can you allow others to implement that truth in their lives in ways different from you?

Catholicism is not just looking at, celebrating, and offering what Jesus did for us, it is about all we can do for Jesus.

You seem to believe that non-Catholics don't think that way at all, even after I've explained it to you until my fingers got tired. As I've REPEATEDLY stated, non-Catholics believe that a life submitted to Christ will be quite different than one not so submitted. We accept the yoke and burden that He places on us, knowing His yoke is easy and His burden is light. We joyfully walk in obedience to Him, obeying the Holy Spirit when He calls us to acts that express Christ's love to the Body and to the world. Why do you continually refuse to accept that while insisting I have to accept your explanations of Catholic behavior for no better reason than you say so?

You don't like when someone denigrates Catholic faith, you should not so denigrate non-Catholic faith. The Fathers of Protestantism did not casually approach this. They knew that they were putting their reputations, status, even their lives on the line for stating contrary beliefs. Remember, they were Catholics raised in the Catholic traditions, and most were in fact in church leadership themselves. They knew the consequences of going against church authority and did it anyway.

They looked at the church of their day and saw problems. That caused them to scour the Scriptures for themselves, and through prayer and the leading of the Holy Spirit, decided that they had to break away. They didn't want to destroy the Catholic church, they simply wanted to live in obedience to the Scriptures that they read for themselves. Remember that the services of the day were conducted in Latin, not the language people used daily, most people either couldn't read and/or didn't have access to the Scriptures and had to simply accept what the priest claimed the Scriptures said. These priests could read the Scriptures for themselves and discovered that the church wasn't really being all that accurate about them.

The reason I cannot be a non-Catholic Christian is because I cannot give up what I have in faith, in God, for less.

And therein lies your contempt for non-Catholic believers. They do not have less because God does not give them less. What "more" do you think you really have that is worth all that much to the Kingdom? You treasure your faith, that's great. I treasure mine and the only things I'm missing out on that God has for me are the result of my own stubbornness, not the name on the church door.

For that reason, maybe Catholics represent the rich and maybe Protestants represent the poor.

No, they don't. There are spiritually rich and poor in all denominations because it all comes down to the depth of our personal relationship with Christ and the maturity of our walk with Him, NOT the name on the church door. Here's a hint, if you have to check the name on the door before you can receive what God is giving, your missing it is on you.

It is why, despite your claims that you throw at me constantly, I feel no superiority towards non-Catholic Christians.

You claim that, yet right here in this post you denigrate their faith as being "poorer" than yours. That's insulting and you should be ashamed for even thinking it. After all, you would be insulted if I stated my faith was richer than yours, but I don't think that way. I think you find value in extra-Biblical traditions that enhance the richness of your faith. That's good for you and God bless you for your desire to serve Him, but you have no business putting down the richness others find in their walk with Christ that don't include Catholic traditions. They have the same hunger to serve God that you do and it's not poorer than yours.

I am like the rich young man who turned away sadly, because he had much and it was not within himself to give it up. I know too many non-Catholic Christians who are...good.

Okay, we can work with that. Yes, I have been pretty hard on you, for a reason. I will let you know that one of the things I admire about Catholics is their dogmatic allegiance to their faith. Once they accept something and believe it, you cannot shake them from it. That doesn't mean that their belief is correct, it just means they will not give up any of them.

My challenge for you is to stop viewing Catholicism as superior to other faiths, because it's not. Accept that other believers have faith just as rich as yours is and that the name on the door doesn't disqualify them.

 

[Meriweather]

You believe Catholicism is the end-all and be-all of the Christian faith and all others are inferior.

Stop telling me what I believe--because what you think I believe is NOT what I believe. When you do this your discussion is not with me, but in your head with an imaginary someone.

And consider why they just might say, "You know, I can't find definitive Scriptural support for holding onto that. In fact, there's stronger support for a different idea or belief. This is causing our brothers to lose their faith and get discouraged. It's hampering our ability to get our message out the world, so let's do something different". And, as I'm pointing out in this post, you have a false understanding of the foundations of Protestant (or Anabaptist) belief.

My understanding comes from detailed talks with friends and family members. They all agree most Catholic Sacraments are unnecessary; missing church on Sunday is no big deal; Catholics give too much attention to Mary and the Saints; too much guilt and so on. Their understanding of indulgences and Galileo...so far out in left field, it's in the parking lot. In fact, there is no clear understanding of almost anything Catholics do or why they do it.

Then there seems to be this holy need for some (definitely not all) non-Catholic Christian Protestant ministers and laity to try to tear down, mock--to the point of spreading lies--about the Catholic faith. The minute one has to tear down another faith to give another faith credibility one has lost the argument. When one has to find excuses for why one doesn't do something, the argument is lost. I am Catholic because it is scriptural; it upholds traditions; it makes first the value of participating in the Mass weekly; humbling oneself to confess sins (faults and wrong-doings); valuing members who have passed on; working out salvation (a gift given to us) through love of God and neighbor. Recognizing we owe God everything and He deserves first place instead of some excuse for not gathering for worship, celebrating the life, death, resurrection, salvation of/by Christ.

Don't feel you have to do any of this. Some people seem to find all this a burden and become discouraged. Others (Catholics) find strength, blessings, and grace--freedom. In other words, no burden, no discouragement for Christ's yoke is easy, the burden light.