Republicans shut 'er down, boys!

[Trajan]

It took a year to get it passed .... how is that "rushed?"

It's a plan developed by the GOP ... how does that "exclude" them?

It was "rushed" because they needed to get something passed before the GOP representatives elected in the 2010 midterms were seated. They spent the year you mention bribing reluctant Democrats like Ben Nelson and Mary Landrieu with sweetheart deals to get enough Democratic votes to pass ObamaCare.

The reason that the final version of ObamaCare contains so much that is unworkable is that it was never intended to BE the final version but it was the version that was passed by the House before the GOP reps were seated and Pelosi & Reid knew they'd never get another version through the House once those Republicans were in place.

It was not rushed. It was passed 9 months before Republicans took over the House and 7 months before the election, when it wasn't even known which party would win the election. So it wasn't rushed and certainly wasn't rushed because the GOP was taking over.

ObamaCare is bad legislation. It always has been. It's bad because Pelosi and Reid had to take what they could get before the representatives elected by the people arrived to put an end to their little "progressive party".

Again, it was passed way before the GOP won the election. Your little fantasy about Pelosi and Reid rushing it to avoid the GOP taking over the House didn't actually happen.

you are not accurate in the context that counts; it was passed in the senate Christmas Eve of 2009 on a party line vote, scott brown was elected in a special senatorial election in Massachusetts Jan 2010, he was the 41 st vote against obamacare, thats why the house could not add/subtract amendments, becasue the senate would have to take up the bill again, meaning the senate would not have supra majority to pass it again.

 

[Trajan]

How could Republican, Grassely, have proposed and got an amendment passed to the ACA Obamacare when the Right insists that the GOP were BLOCKED out of all negotiations?????

for the same reason this thing is a mess, they thought they could get him on board as hes been a bit of a rino periodically and they may have thought they would have a shot at stripping it out later, but due to Browns election, they couldn't...and frankly I am not even sure they realized what trouble it would cause, hence the trainwreck exposed it for the pill it was..... etc...

IOW, there were several Republicans involved in the negotiations who were not blocked out and contributed to the bill, but the GOP still voted against the bill and then lied about being blocked out. Remember the "gang of six?"

then why didn't they vote for it?

 

[edthecynic]

Correct. We already have Medicaid and CHIPs. One has to ask if we already have medical care to "save" the children and the needy... what is the purpose of ACA again? Oh yeah, tax and destroy privately funded health care.

CHIP was never passed. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

Surprised you never heard about it. SCHIP/CHIP(s) is a program that Obama is famous for expanding.

State Children's Health Insurance Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On February 4, 2009, President Barack Obama signed the Children's Health Insurance Reauthorization Act of 2009, expanding the healthcare program to an additional 4 million children and pregnant women, including for the first time legal immigrants without a waiting period.

I believe there are 12million kids on chips, never passed. ROFL

NOTE: I'm not perfect. No one is.

SCHIP is not Nixon's CHIP.

 

[edthecynic]

for the same reason this thing is a mess, they thought they could get him on board as hes been a bit of a rino periodically and they may have thought they would have a shot at stripping it out later, but due to Browns election, they couldn't...and frankly I am not even sure they realized what trouble it would cause, hence the trainwreck exposed it for the pill it was..... etc...

IOW, there were several Republicans involved in the negotiations who were not blocked out and contributed to the bill, but the GOP still voted against the bill and then lied about being blocked out. Remember the "gang of six?"

then why didn't they vote for it?

Because the GOP never intended to vote for it, they were dishonest brokers as evidenced by their lie that they were blocked out of any discussion or contribution to the bill.

 

[RKMBrown]

CHIP was never passed. Don't you ever get tired of being wrong?

Surprised you never heard about it. SCHIP/CHIP(s) is a program that Obama is famous for expanding.

State Children's Health Insurance Program - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

On February 4, 2009, President Barack Obama signed the Children's Health Insurance Reauthorization Act of 2009, expanding the healthcare program to an additional 4 million children and pregnant women, including for the first time legal immigrants without a waiting period.

I believe there are 12million kids on chips, never passed. ROFL

NOTE: I'm not perfect. No one is.

SCHIP is not Nixon's CHIP.

I did not say the current CHIP program is Nixon's CHIP program, did I? If you think I did, I invite you to quote me.

 

[Sallow]

What's funny in this is that Mr. Brown is showing he knows what the words mean, and you are showing you don't

Well no.

There's no such thing as a "classic" Constitutional anything.

It's made up crapola.

And Fascists are not Socialist.

Two very different ideologies.

Classical Libertarianism legal definition of Classical Libertarianism. Classical Libertarianism synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

The National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known in English as the Nazi Party, was a political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945.

Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but applied them to what it saw as the more significant conflict between nations and races rather than to class conflict, and focused on ending the divisions between classes within the nation. It advocates a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism.

Translation Fasicm is a form of socialism.

Naw.

Fascism isn't socialism unless you are holding that all forms of government have socialist elements. And in that case you would be correct. And that would include our government from it's very beginning. Which would be somewhat true. Both the military and the mail are early forms of socialism in this country.

Nazis, by the way..killed Socialists.

 

[Seawytch]

Yes.....on a state level.

Nope...

THE HERITAGE PLAN

The fundamental defects of the existing system and the serious flaws in most solutions to the problem of uninsurance has led The Heritage Foundatio n to propose a national health system based on very different foundations. Developed in detail in n new monograph, A National Health System forAmerica, the Heritage plan aims at achieving four related objectives: All citizens should be guaranteed universa l access to affordable health care. The inflationary pressures in the health industry should be brought under control.

Assuring Affordable Health Care for All Americans

Where does the ACA do this? Where do they even attempt to do this? That was the original Idea, it got lost somewhere in the power grab....

The individual mandate came from Heritage to counter the employer mandate.

 

[RKMBrown]

Well no.

There's no such thing as a "classic" Constitutional anything.

It's made up crapola.

And Fascists are not Socialist.

Two very different ideologies.

Classical Libertarianism legal definition of Classical Libertarianism. Classical Libertarianism synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but applied them to what it saw as the more significant conflict between nations and races rather than to class conflict, and focused on ending the divisions between classes within the nation. It advocates a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism.

Translation Fasicm is a form of socialism.

Naw.

Fascism isn't socialism unless you are holding that all forms of government have socialist elements. And in that case you would be correct. And that would include our government from it's very beginning. Which would be somewhat true. Both the military and the mail are early forms of socialism in this country.

Nazis, by the way..killed Socialists.

Facism is the Nazi form of socialism. Communism was the Russian form of socialism.
Our government was formed with no elements of socialism. We deformed from free market capitalism into capitalist socialism during the marxist communist/facist era.

Our military is not socialist. Funding for our military does not come from the military. It comes from taxes. Our mail system is not socialist either. The US Mail is a service provided by an agency of our government. However, in order for it to be socialist the government would have had to make it "illegal" for fedex and email systems to exist in competition with the US Mail system. I suppose there was a period of time when the socialists tried to make it illegal with the USPS. But I don't believe that was the original intent. The need was there, and there were no corporations around at the time with the funds or inclination to build it.

What makes you think Socialists don't kill Socialists?

 

[Contumacious]

[

Fascism isn't socialism unless you are holding that all forms of government have socialist elements. .

Under Capitalism ALL the sytems of production are PRIVATELY owned - so there are no elements of socialism

Under fascism, the means of production are privately owned but heavily regulated

Under socialism all means of production are owned by the government.

.

.

 

[Faun]

The goal posts are not moving. You socialists are running the wrong way.

You must be blind. He changed his entire argument. He went from ... Democrats rushed it through because they lost the 2010 election, to -- Democrats rushed it through because Brown got elected.

Wrong. Brown was a part of the 2010 election cycle.

Read for comprehension ... his initial claim wasn't about Brown ...

"It was "rushed" because they needed to get something passed before the GOP representatives elected in the 2010 midterms were seated." ~ Oldstyle​

 

[Sallow]

Classical Libertarianism legal definition of Classical Libertarianism. Classical Libertarianism synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.




Translation Fasicm is a form of socialism.

Naw.

Fascism isn't socialism unless you are holding that all forms of government have socialist elements. And in that case you would be correct. And that would include our government from it's very beginning. Which would be somewhat true. Both the military and the mail are early forms of socialism in this country.

Nazis, by the way..killed Socialists.

Facism is the Nazi form of socialism. Communism was the Russian form of socialism.
Our government was formed with no elements of socialism. We deformed from free market capitalism into capitalist socialism during the marxist communist/facist era.

Our military is not socialist. Funding for our military does not come from the military. It comes from taxes. Our mail system is not socialist either. The US Mail is a service provided by an agency of our government. However, in order for it to be socialist the government would have had to make it "illegal" for fedex and email systems to exist in competition with the US Mail system. I suppose there was a period of time when the socialists tried to make it illegal with the USPS. But I don't believe that was the original intent. The need was there, and there were no corporations around at the time with the funds or inclination to build it.

What makes you think Socialists don't kill Socialists?

You are pretty clueless aren't ya?

Mussolini defined Fascism as Corporatism. He was correct. Most Fascist societies are in fact, plutocracies. Which are conservative..like you.

Power is given to a small group of individuals and it's bent on fleecing society in general of it's wealth and pooling it to a few hands. Sound familiar? It's what you and your ilk want to do. And you might be somewhat right. Giving public money to private hands is Corporatism or Fascism. So..when you build a plane at General Dynamics with tax payer funds..you are engaging in Corporatism..or Fascism.. something you and your ilk do all the time.

Socialism on the other hand is the opposite. It moves the means of production from private hands to public hands. It doesn't pool wealth into a small group rather it spreads it among the public. The Mail system is a good example of Socialism. It took a formerly private enterprise and made it public..for the good of the public.

Those are the major differences. That's why fascists, like yourself, kill socialists.

Hope that was helpful.

 

[Faun]

Liar or ignorant? Hello, McFly... the election cycle includes the period of time prior to the election when the candidates are being vetted and debating for the election. Elections for congress are debated for months before then actual election, and the incoming elected officials does not happen for months after the actual election. Brown came in between these activities, and the democrats freaked out started buying votes to get it done before Brown's and the other votes counted.

Brown's election took place Jan 19, 2010 so by your perverted "logic" the vetting took place in 2009.

Gonna guess you don't understand the concept of "and." Scott Brown was the 41st republican vote in the Senate. However, other republicans were literally bought by the democrats to overcome the filibuster in the senate and get it through. Obama care was signed in a rush literally just before the newly elected representatives took office.

Who knows what you're talking about?

The bill passed in the Senate on December 24th, 2009 and Brown was elected in January 19th, 2010. So no, the Democrats did not rush to sign the bill before Brown took office since he wasn't even elected yet.

 

[Faun]

Sure, I'd be happy to ...

• Alexander (R-TN)

• Burr (R-NC)

• Coburn (R-OK)

• Enzi (R-WY)

• Gregg (R-NH)

• Hatch (R-UT)

• Isakson (R-GA)

• McCain (R-AZ)

• Murkowski (R-AK)

• Roberts (R-KS)

... those are among the Republicans who submitted hundreds of amendments, of which, 161 were passed.

So who knows why you think Republicans had "zero input" when they submitted hundreds of amendments??



. . . next rightwing talking point . . .

You missed Grassely and Snowe, who along with Enzi were part of the "gang of six." The GOP pretended to work with the Dems getting many changes they asked for and they STILL refused to vote for the bill, and then the lying GOP said they didn't vote for the bill because they were shut out of the process.

That was my point Faun and Sallow can't seem to grasp...the GOP did indeed ask for a multitude of "changes" to the ACA through hundreds of amendments to the legislation and then refuse to vote for the bill. They did so in large part because they wanted to stop it's passage and make Democrats vote for or against embarrassing amendments like the Vitter Amendment that required Congress and it's staff to use the health care exchanges. Or have you folks forgotten that Reid ended up using Reconciliation to quash those attempts and get a final bill to Obama's desk to be signed?

Complete nonsense. It doesn't matter how many amendments they put forward, Democrats still went through them and accepted the ones they wanted and rejected the rest. It did nothing to stop its passage and it did nothing to make it embarrassing for them.

And again ... Republicans explained why they submitted so many amendments ... because it was their only opportunity to get measures they wanted into the bill.

 

[Faun]

Once again you failed to see the forest for the trees, Faun...

ObamaCare was written solely by Pelosi and Reid behind closed doors without any input from Republicans at all. When their versions of ObamaCare were subsequently brought to the floors of the Senate and the House for debate Republicans attempted to hold up the process by attaching hundreds of amendments to both bills. What you call Republican "input" was in reality a last ditch effort to keep ObamaCare from being implemented at all...a stall tactic to when Brown would take his seat and when the American voters would get a chance to voice their opinions through the 2010 mid-terms. Many of the things you claim to be Republican amendments were nothing more than slight changes to the wording of the bills...changes designed solely to hold up the process. Or don't you remember Harry Reid whining loudly about just that?

The whole fucking thing was a conservative idea!

Unbelievable.

I guess this is what you call, "Bitterly Clinging."

The 20 year old conservative idea was a market driven system at the individual state level.......not a one size fits all federal system. Apples and oranges. Get your facts straight.

Wait, what ... ???

It was originally drafted up by Conservatives as a counter to HillaryCare on a national lavel.

 

[Faun]

What's funny in this is that Mr. Brown is showing he knows what the words mean, and you are showing you don't

Well no.

There's no such thing as a "classic" Constitutional anything.

It's made up crapola.

And Fascists are not Socialist.

Two very different ideologies.

Classical Libertarianism legal definition of Classical Libertarianism. Classical Libertarianism synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

The National Socialist German Workers' Party, commonly known in English as the Nazi Party, was a political party in Germany active between 1920 and 1945.

Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but applied them to what it saw as the more significant conflict between nations and races rather than to class conflict, and focused on ending the divisions between classes within the nation. It advocates a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism.

Translation Fasicm is a form of socialism.

Cracks me up how some folks think the Nazi's were Socialists simply because they called themselves national socialists.

In what way were they Socialists? And please, stick to the definition of the word:

so·cial·ism

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
   
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
   
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

 

[Sallow]

Well no.

There's no such thing as a "classic" Constitutional anything.

It's made up crapola.

And Fascists are not Socialist.

Two very different ideologies.

Classical Libertarianism legal definition of Classical Libertarianism. Classical Libertarianism synonyms by the Free Online Law Dictionary.

Fascism borrowed theories and terminology from socialism but applied them to what it saw as the more significant conflict between nations and races rather than to class conflict, and focused on ending the divisions between classes within the nation. It advocates a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky to secure national self-sufficiency and independence through protectionist and interventionist economic policies. Fascism supports what is sometimes called a Third Position between capitalism and Marxist socialism.

Translation Fasicm is a form of socialism.

Cracks me up how some folks think the Nazi's were Socialists simply because they called themselves national socialists.

In what way were they Socialists? And please, stick to the definition of the word:

so·cial·ism

1. a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
   
2. procedure or practice in accordance with this theory.
   
3. (in Marxist theory) the stage following capitalism in the transition of a society to communism, characterized by the imperfect implementation of collectivist principles.

Funnier still since the North Koreans call themselves the Democratic Republic of Korea.

 

[ScienceRocks]

Everyone needs to take a logical step in the others direction.

Sound economics
sound science policy
sound protection of rights

extremism is not going to end well for anyone. This goes for both sides.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

The goal posts are not moving. You socialists are running the wrong way.

Naw you Fascists are just doing what you always do.

It's a propaganda thing.

I'm not a facist, i'm the opposite, I'm a classical libertarian/consitutionial conservative. Socialists are the facists, just as were the National Socialist Party of Germany.

This makes no sense.

Fascism is on the right of the political spectrum, socialism on the left; it’s ignorant idiocy to refer to a socialist as a ‘fascist.’

National Socialism in Germany was rightwing, the first Germans sent to the concentration camps when the NSDAP came to power were socialists and communists.

You might want to research first before exhibiting your ignorance.

And as already correctly noted: there is no such thing as a ‘constitutional conservative,’ unless perhaps if you’re referring to a conservative ignorant of the Constitution and its case law.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

Everyone needs to take a logical step in the others direction.

Sound economics
sound science policy
sound protection of rights

extremism is not going to end well for anyone. This goes for both sides.

Does this include you ending your extremism as a racist?

 

[ScienceRocks]

Everyone needs to take a logical step in the others direction.

Sound economics
sound science policy
sound protection of rights

extremism is not going to end well for anyone. This goes for both sides.

Does this include you ending your extremism as a racist?

How the hell is pointing out crime stats from the DOJ extreme? Like I said extremism isn't logical.

You ignoring it isn't logical.