Scientists and warnings.

[flacaltenn]

The scientists' obligation is to inform folks of risks.. To make those risks as quantitative as possible. Some in government believe that risk of any magnitude is simply not acceptable. And they would eagerly ABUSE political power to separate folks from ALL risk. No financial risks, no health risks, no educational risks, no enviro risks.. Thats unrealistic and unwanted restriction on personal choice and liberty.

The GW crazytrain has failed to provide adequate precision in their fearsome projections. Not specific enough to uproot our entire economic base and lifestyle. And the complicit Green movement has failed to offer any viable alternatives to CO2 emissions. There is no true consensus, because scientists are no longer arrogant enough to predict the temperature anomaly for 2060..

Challenge for the Warmer Zealots... WHAT is the consensus temperature anomaly for 2060? If you dont have that to any certainty, why are we here discussing mitigations?

What was the consensus area for the anticipated large slide at Oso? 1/4 mile? 1/2 mile? 1 mile? Such a number was not given, and didn't really matter, for a loss of life and property were involved in all cases. The geologists warnings were ignored and a lot of people have died.

We already know from the affects already observed that the costs of the increased temperatures will be very non-trivial. We are seeing villages abondoned in the Andes because of glaciers that no longer provide the late summer water for crops.

But, because of a lot of people that are supporting the lies of the energy corps, the neccessary measures will not be taken. And a lot of people are going to suffer. And neither the energy corperations or their supporters give a damn.

If I recall what I heard correctly.. The problem at OSO was UNDERPANICK on the part of "scientific" projections.. The problem was the reports to the public never emphasized that the slide was capable of CROSSING THE RIVER where the folks lived.. Your response illustrates my point. Leftists desire political action that results in RISK-FREE existence, the rest of us want ACCURATE ASSESSMENTS so that we can do our own risk evaluations.. The issue at OSO is EXACTLY that the "science was vague".. YET -- you wanted the risks to be evaluated HIGHER than the predictions were indicating.. At least you're a consistent leftist.

As for GW -- define "non-trivial".. You cannot expect a range of 1.5 to 8 degC to be sufficient guidance to make MASSIVE policy commitments. Changes of 0.5degC over your lifetime ARE NOT causing 1/2 the shit that you imagine they are today.. That's an observation that is NOT part of the consensus. ICE may be melting, but that is a multi-century trend..

There are CLEAR actions that COULD be taken to reduce CO2 dramatically. 100 new nuclear plants would be a huge leap forward and an ACTUAL alternative as opposed to FAKE alternatives that are getting rewarded right now because of the GW hysteria.

Mitigation for sea level rise is something that NEEDS to happen.. But not out of panic and "imagined" deadlines driven by fear and uncertainty.

Current empirical evidence is that CO2 increases will cause about the SAME RATE of 0.6degC over a lifetime if we did NOTHING. At that rate -- it shouldn't be the circus Big Top that it has become.....

 

[Freewill]

The scientists' obligation is to inform folks of risks.. To make those risks as quantitative as possible. Some in government believe that risk of any magnitude is simply not acceptable. And they would eagerly ABUSE political power to separate folks from ALL risk. No financial risks, no health risks, no educational risks, no enviro risks.. Thats unrealistic and unwanted restriction on personal choice and liberty.

The GW crazytrain has failed to provide adequate precision in their fearsome projections. Not specific enough to uproot our entire economic base and lifestyle. And the complicit Green movement has failed to offer any viable alternatives to CO2 emissions. There is no true consensus, because scientists are no longer arrogant enough to predict the temperature anomaly for 2060..

Challenge for the Warmer Zealots... WHAT is the consensus temperature anomaly for 2060? If you dont have that to any certainty, why are we here discussing mitigations?

What was the consensus area for the anticipated large slide at Oso? 1/4 mile? 1/2 mile? 1 mile? Such a number was not given, and didn't really matter, for a loss of life and property were involved in all cases. The geologists warnings were ignored and a lot of people have died.

We already know from the affects already observed that the costs of the increased temperatures will be very non-trivial. We are seeing villages abondoned in the Andes because of glaciers that no longer provide the late summer water for crops.

But, because of a lot of people that are supporting the lies of the energy corps, the neccessary measures will not be taken. And a lot of people are going to suffer. And neither the energy corperations or their supporters give a damn.

If I recall what I heard correctly.. The problem at OSO was UNDERPANICK on the part of "scientific" projections.. The problem was the reports to the public never emphasized that the slide was capable of CROSSING THE RIVER where the folks lived.. Your response illustrates my point. Leftists desire political action that results in RISK-FREE existence, the rest of us want ACCURATE ASSESSMENTS so that we can do our own risk evaluations.. The issue at OSO is EXACTLY that the "science was vague".. YET -- you wanted the risks to be evaluated HIGHER than the predictions were indicating.. At least you're a consistent leftist.

As for GW -- define "non-trivial".. You cannot expect a range of 1.5 to 8 degC to be sufficient guidance to make MASSIVE policy commitments. Changes of 0.5degC over your lifetime ARE NOT causing 1/2 the shit that you imagine they are today.. That's an observation that is NOT part of the consensus. ICE may be melting, but that is a multi-century trend..

There are CLEAR actions that COULD be taken to reduce CO2 dramatically. 100 new nuclear plants would be a huge leap forward and an ACTUAL alternative as opposed to FAKE alternatives that are getting rewarded right now because of the GW hysteria.

Mitigation for sea level rise is something that NEEDS to happen.. But not out of panic and "imagined" deadlines driven by fear and uncertainty.

Current empirical evidence is that CO2 increases will cause about the SAME RATE of 0.6degC over a lifetime if we did NOTHING. At that rate -- it shouldn't be the circus Big Top that it has become.....

No more nuclear plants until long range storage of spent fuel is addressed. Storing it on site is just an invitation to disaster, in my opinion. Obama should be impeached over Yucca mountain along with Reid.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have just seen a tragedy concerning a landslide, predicted by scientists, and ignored by all that could have done something to lessen the toll. Politically not expediant to make people uncomfortable. Until they start dieing from that sick set of mind.

Now we have the vast majority of scientists from all over the world stating that global warming is a clear and present danger, one that is already creating problems. And they will be damned by the very same kind of people that let others die for political expediancy.

You Warmers are truly insane. It's hard to conceive of greater arrogance than believing that you can control the climate of the planet.

You should throw yourself into the Yellowstone Caledera because that will be as effective as stopping the next eruption as lowering our CO2 will settle our climate

"Where do people get the notion that the Warmers are an insane, death worshiping Cult?"

 

[flacaltenn]

What was the consensus area for the anticipated large slide at Oso? 1/4 mile? 1/2 mile? 1 mile? Such a number was not given, and didn't really matter, for a loss of life and property were involved in all cases. The geologists warnings were ignored and a lot of people have died.

We already know from the affects already observed that the costs of the increased temperatures will be very non-trivial. We are seeing villages abondoned in the Andes because of glaciers that no longer provide the late summer water for crops.

But, because of a lot of people that are supporting the lies of the energy corps, the neccessary measures will not be taken. And a lot of people are going to suffer. And neither the energy corperations or their supporters give a damn.

If I recall what I heard correctly.. The problem at OSO was UNDERPANICK on the part of "scientific" projections.. The problem was the reports to the public never emphasized that the slide was capable of CROSSING THE RIVER where the folks lived.. Your response illustrates my point. Leftists desire political action that results in RISK-FREE existence, the rest of us want ACCURATE ASSESSMENTS so that we can do our own risk evaluations.. The issue at OSO is EXACTLY that the "science was vague".. YET -- you wanted the risks to be evaluated HIGHER than the predictions were indicating.. At least you're a consistent leftist.

As for GW -- define "non-trivial".. You cannot expect a range of 1.5 to 8 degC to be sufficient guidance to make MASSIVE policy commitments. Changes of 0.5degC over your lifetime ARE NOT causing 1/2 the shit that you imagine they are today.. That's an observation that is NOT part of the consensus. ICE may be melting, but that is a multi-century trend..

There are CLEAR actions that COULD be taken to reduce CO2 dramatically. 100 new nuclear plants would be a huge leap forward and an ACTUAL alternative as opposed to FAKE alternatives that are getting rewarded right now because of the GW hysteria.

Mitigation for sea level rise is something that NEEDS to happen.. But not out of panic and "imagined" deadlines driven by fear and uncertainty.

Current empirical evidence is that CO2 increases will cause about the SAME RATE of 0.6degC over a lifetime if we did NOTHING. At that rate -- it shouldn't be the circus Big Top that it has become.....

No more nuclear plants until long range storage of spent fuel is addressed. Storing it on site is just an invitation to disaster, in my opinion. Obama should be impeached over Yucca mountain along with Reid.

That govt promise needs to be kept for another reason.. And that is to assist in the clean-up of the ongoing enviro crisis at the GOVERNMENT weapons plants like Hanford and Savannah River.. They are WAAAAY behind in cleaning up their OWN MESSES..

 

[Iceweasel]

That govt promise needs to be kept for another reason.. And that is to assist in the clean-up of the ongoing enviro crisis at the GOVERNMENT weapons plants like Hanford and Savannah River.. They are WAAAAY behind in cleaning up their OWN MESSES..

Yesterday the governor said they are filing a lawsuit against the feds to cleanup Hanford since they've been stalling for so many years.

 

[westwall]

The world loses an area of rainforest the size of Panama each year.
Deforestation Facts, Deforestation Information, Effects of Deforestation - National Geographic

There is an area of plastic garbage in the Pacific ocean that is the size of the continental United States, accumulating more and feeding into the food chain.
https://www.google.com/search?q=pacific+plastic+gyre&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

We have burnt coal and oil continuously all over the world, 24 hours a day, for over 100 years.
https://www.google.com/search?q=industrial+revolution+fossil+fuels&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

The pollution over China can be seen from space.
https://www.google.com/search?q=china+pollution+seen+from+space&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-USfficial&client=firefox-a&channel=sb

This combination of factors has created the Greenhouse Effect. Only the dumbest talking monkeys can look at the state of the world and think, "Everything is fine. GOD is in control."

Yes, it is true that human activity means less than nothing to the Earth. It is true that the planet can shake off the human race like a case of fleas. Plants and animals will reclaim the ruins of every major city within a couple of months after we're gone.

What we are trying to do is to prevent that from happening. We don't want the human race to overpopulate and consume the world's resources until the planet can no longer support us and everyone dies. That is not the ultimate goal of the human race.

Rain forest preservation is one of my big things. Mankind should do everything possible to prevent that irreparable harm.

Your Great Pacific Garbage patch is not visible to the naked eye for the most part. In fact when researchers skimmed the area a few years back they couldn't find anything but microscopic plastic bits.

Yes coal has been burned for over 100 years. However,a single major volcanic eruption puts more crap into the atmosphere than all of mans pollution for all of mans history. So, big deal.

Pollution from China should be greatly curtailed. Especially their particulate discharge. None of the GHG's they emit matter however.

AGW has been shown to be a false theory. You need no longer worry about it.

Now why would that be a concern of yours? Haven't you learned and read right here that mankind has no ability to influence the climate of the world.

Surley to fucking goodness you don't think that the massive carbon removal areas known as "rain forests" have any fucking thing to do with "climate", "air quality", "carbon removal", "oxygen regeneration", etc.

You just want it (rain forest) preserved so you can vacation there. Right? Not because trees and plants serve any important functions in out climate.

Only the sun effects our climate. Man cutting down trees cannot do anything. I learned that right here from friends of yours and if you like I can find the post number PROVING that cutting down the entire rain forest won't mean a thing to the earth. Nah jk.

You're not trying hard enough zeke old boy. I have never stated that only the Sun affects our climate, I am not a extremist like you guys are. I realize that the Earths climate engine is HUGE and POWERFUL and, unlike you who thinks it is simple, I realize (as do thinking people) that it is amazingly complex and governed by MANY influences, the most important of which is indeed the Sun.

I feel that the rainforests need to be preserved because of all of the potential medicines and compounds that have yet to be discovered that will better our lives. What's tragic is it is you idiots who are driving rainforest destruction by your bullshit carbon credit schemes that see people turned off of their land (some of whom are murdered0 so that scumbags can plant trees to assuage the guilt of the polluters.

It is a modern day version of the Catholic Churches "indulgences"....yet another example (of many) how the modern AGW movement is simply the newest and stupidest religion.

 

[ron4342]

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have just seen a tragedy concerning a landslide, predicted by scientists, and ignored by all that could have done something to lessen the toll. Politically not expediant to make people uncomfortable. Until they start dieing from that sick set of mind.

Now we have the vast majority of scientists from all over the world stating that global warming is a clear and present danger, one that is already creating problems. And they will be damned by the very same kind of people that let others die for political expediancy.

Old Rocks, good post! I once heard how we should look at global warming like this:
We have two choices. We can ignore global warming and pretend it isn't happening OR we can take steps to stop or at least lessen the effects it will cause. Now, if we ignore global warming we might be right and we might not suffer any major problems. On the other hand, we might be wrong and millions (billions?) of people around the world might die from starvation, flooding, drought, severe weather, or wars caused by increased competition for natural resources.
Think of it like insurance situation. We don't buy insurance because you know your car is going to crash or because you know your house is going to burn down. You buy insurance because your car might crash or your house might burn down. IT IS FOOLISH NOT TO PROTECT YOURSELF. Why do people refuse to protect themselves from the potential damage of global warming? And in the end, even if we do not stop or slow global warming, what is the down side? We end up with a better world and cleaner air to breathe. And yes, some industries may lose money but also the demand for clean energy will bring about the growth of new industries. What is so terrible about that.
And here is the part that really bugs me. In the 40's, 50's and 60's big tobacco spent billions trying to convince people that smoking was not bad for their health. We now know that their propaganda was wrong and because of that billions died from smoking related diseases. Big oil is doing exactly the same thing regarding greenhouse gases and global warming. Industries making big money will lie so they can continue to make big money. How many times must we learn the same lesson?

 

[paulitician]

We don't need more Government intervention and dominance over our lives. My God, we already have enough of that. Unfortunately, the Climate Change issue has been hijacked by Communists and New World Order idiots. It hasn't been about Science for a long time. It's a Political and Cultish movement now.

So for me, i'd rather take my chances with 'Global Warming' than allow more Government interference and control of my life. If you wanna go off the Grid and save the Environment, more power to ya. I'll even commend you for it. But don't force others by way of Government force, to go along with your agenda. You can make your own choices about how you wanna live. And Going off the Grid to save the Environment would be a good start for you. But i won't be joining you on that. Freedom & Liberty is far more important to me than the threat of 'Global Warming.' That's just how i feel anyway.

 

[paulitician]

Surely a global warming tax is needed as well as eliminating the use of fossil fuels...PROGRESS for mankind ! Lol

And also a New World Order one World Government. Yup, just we need, more Government dominance and control of our lives. Cause we don't have enough of that already. The 'Global Warming' movement is a Communist/New World Order movement. They want to force their agenda on everyone. I fear them far more than i fear 'Global Warming.'

 

[1ArizonaMan]

Good grief that tragic landslide in WA state had nothing to with the CAGW ruse. Honestly - the peddlers of CAGW hysteria have no shame.

 

[paulitician]

Good grief that tragic landslide in WA state had nothing to with the CAGW ruse. Honestly - the peddlers of CAGW hysteria have no shame.

They've become desperately hysterical. The People just aren't buying their scam anymore. Most now realize it's a Communist/New World Order movement. So the Great Global Warming Scam is over. And they know it. So now they're just ratcheting up the hysterical Fear Mongering. One last ditch effort to save their scam. It is what it is.

 

[mamooth]

Your "science fiction" is based on computer models generated by global warming fanatics and have zero empirical data to support them.

There's this thing called "temperature" which is measured by these amazing things called "thermometers". And all kinds of other physical data. No matter. Westwall just handwaves away any data he doesn't like, and then claims the data doesn't exist. And then he wonders why his cult isn't taken seriously.

The models, of course, are quite good, but they're just icing on the cake of all the physical data that proves the warming. Even Mann's primitive 1988 model was damn near perfect, but a lot of deniers inexplicably try to revise history and claim the exact opposite.

 

[westwall]

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have just seen a tragedy concerning a landslide, predicted by scientists, and ignored by all that could have done something to lessen the toll. Politically not expediant to make people uncomfortable. Until they start dieing from that sick set of mind.

Now we have the vast majority of scientists from all over the world stating that global warming is a clear and present danger, one that is already creating problems. And they will be damned by the very same kind of people that let others die for political expediancy.

Old Rocks, good post! I once heard how we should look at global warming like this:
We have two choices. We can ignore global warming and pretend it isn't happening OR we can take steps to stop or at least lessen the effects it will cause. Now, if we ignore global warming we might be right and we might not suffer any major problems. On the other hand, we might be wrong and millions (billions?) of people around the world might die from starvation, flooding, drought, severe weather, or wars caused by increased competition for natural resources.
Think of it like insurance situation. We don't buy insurance because you know your car is going to crash or because you know your house is going to burn down. You buy insurance because your car might crash or your house might burn down. IT IS FOOLISH NOT TO PROTECT YOURSELF. Why do people refuse to protect themselves from the potential damage of global warming? And in the end, even if we do not stop or slow global warming, what is the down side? We end up with a better world and cleaner air to breathe. And yes, some industries may lose money but also the demand for clean energy will bring about the growth of new industries. What is so terrible about that.
And here is the part that really bugs me. In the 40's, 50's and 60's big tobacco spent billions trying to convince people that smoking was not bad for their health. We now know that their propaganda was wrong and because of that billions died from smoking related diseases. Big oil is doing exactly the same thing regarding greenhouse gases and global warming. Industries making big money will lie so they can continue to make big money. How many times must we learn the same lesson?

Yeppers, the world should spend 76 trillion dollars on a "might". I would rather spend that money on a sure thing. Asteroids are the only things that we have empirical data showing catastrophic destruction. Mankind is the first creature on this planet to have the ability to prevent an asteroid strike which WILL end civilization at the least, and life in the worst case...and you fools want to squander those resources on something that is not proven, and who's effects are arguable beneficial.

What ignorant religious nutters you are.

 

[CrusaderFrank]

Your "science fiction" is based on computer models generated by global warming fanatics and have zero empirical data to support them.

There's this thing called "temperature" which is measured by these amazing things called "thermometers". And all kinds of other physical data. No matter. Westwall just handwaves away any data he doesn't like, and then claims the data doesn't exist. And then he wonders why his cult isn't taken seriously.

The models, of course, are quite good, but they're just icing on the cake of all the physical data that proves the warming. Even Mann's primitive 1988 model was damn near perfect, but a lot of deniers inexplicably try to revise history and claim the exact opposite.

No warming the past 15 years because.....?

 

[westwall]

Your "science fiction" is based on computer models generated by global warming fanatics and have zero empirical data to support them.

There's this thing called "temperature" which is measured by these amazing things called "thermometers". And all kinds of other physical data. No matter. Westwall just handwaves away any data he doesn't like, and then claims the data doesn't exist. And then he wonders why his cult isn't taken seriously.

The models, of course, are quite good, but they're just icing on the cake of all the physical data that proves the warming. Even Mann's primitive 1988 model was damn near perfect, but a lot of deniers inexplicably try to revise history and claim the exact opposite.

And once more for the learning impaired among the CAGW faithful......CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION......


Which is a fundamental premise of SCIENCE.

Something you clowns don't know squadoosh about.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Here in the Pacific Northwest, we have just seen a tragedy concerning a landslide, predicted by scientists, and ignored by all that could have done something to lessen the toll. Politically not expediant to make people uncomfortable. Until they start dieing from that sick set of mind.

Now we have the vast majority of scientists from all over the world stating that global warming is a clear and present danger, one that is already creating problems. And they will be damned by the very same kind of people that let others die for political expediancy.

Old Rocks, good post! I once heard how we should look at global warming like this:
We have two choices. We can ignore global warming and pretend it isn't happening OR we can take steps to stop or at least lessen the effects it will cause. Now, if we ignore global warming we might be right and we might not suffer any major problems. On the other hand, we might be wrong and millions (billions?) of people around the world might die from starvation, flooding, drought, severe weather, or wars caused by increased competition for natural resources.
Think of it like insurance situation. We don't buy insurance because you know your car is going to crash or because you know your house is going to burn down. You buy insurance because your car might crash or your house might burn down. IT IS FOOLISH NOT TO PROTECT YOURSELF. Why do people refuse to protect themselves from the potential damage of global warming? And in the end, even if we do not stop or slow global warming, what is the down side? We end up with a better world and cleaner air to breathe. And yes, some industries may lose money but also the demand for clean energy will bring about the growth of new industries. What is so terrible about that.
And here is the part that really bugs me. In the 40's, 50's and 60's big tobacco spent billions trying to convince people that smoking was not bad for their health. We now know that their propaganda was wrong and because of that billions died from smoking related diseases. Big oil is doing exactly the same thing regarding greenhouse gases and global warming. Industries making big money will lie so they can continue to make big money. How many times must we learn the same lesson?

Feel free to read my reply to Rocks in the hand to see why you sound like an idiot.

 

[paulitician]

Hey, everyone has the right to go off the Grid and use one square of toilet paper. Or hell, don't use any toilet paper at all. I don't care, it's your decision. But the People are not gonna allow the Communists and New World Order assholes to take complete control of their lives. We definitely don't need more Government intervention in our lives. We surely have enough of that already. The Communists and New World Order assholes want to push their agenda by way of force. But the People are saying no.

So if you want to save the Environment, there are many positive things you can do. But you should be allowed to make those decisions for yourself. No Government apparatus should force you to make those decisions. So go off the Grid and use that one square of toilet paper. Do your part. I'll even commend you for it. But you won't be allowed to force your agenda on everyone else. That's just the way it is.

 

[Iceweasel]

There's this thing called "temperature" which is measured by these amazing things called "thermometers".

And during the course of their existence they have displayed a marked overall global warming trend for....how many years? I remember as a kid we were taught about global cooling so I guess the newer high tech thermometers can go back further in time.

 

[BlindBoo]

Your "science fiction" is based on computer models generated by global warming fanatics and have zero empirical data to support them.

There's this thing called "temperature" which is measured by these amazing things called "thermometers". And all kinds of other physical data. No matter. Westwall just handwaves away any data he doesn't like, and then claims the data doesn't exist. And then he wonders why his cult isn't taken seriously.

The models, of course, are quite good, but they're just icing on the cake of all the physical data that proves the warming. Even Mann's primitive 1988 model was damn near perfect, but a lot of deniers inexplicably try to revise history and claim the exact opposite.

No warming the past 15 years because.....?

......it's not true. The planet continues to warm.

Human activity continues to warm the planet over the past 16 years

 

[CrusaderFrank]

There's this thing called "temperature" which is measured by these amazing things called "thermometers".

And during the course of their existence they have displayed a marked overall global warming trend for....how many years? I remember as a kid we were taught about global cooling so I guess the newer high tech thermometers can go back further in time.

Global Climate Change

Warming

Cooling