Separating anti-Semitism from Anti-Zionism

[Boston1]

Zionism

1. 
   Rooted in the Jewish people's biblical and historical ties to their ancestral homeland, and their centuries-long yearning to return to the land of Israel, modern Zionismsuccessfully fused the ancient and the modern into a vision of creating a Jewish state in the land of Israel.
   Modern Zionism - Israel Record
   archive.adl.org/israel/record/modern.html
   Anti‑Defamation Leagu

 

[montelatici]

You are projecting. Just because the Zionists dismantled the Christian and Muslim Palestine "brick by brick", it does not indicate that anti-Zionists want anything other than justice for the non-Jews of Palestine. What was promised to them by the League of Nations (and the Mandate).

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

No it is not antisemitism. I hold the same opinion of any ideology that holds that particular group is superior and should be separate.

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

".... behave like a normal secular state".. That's a construction of your own ---- isn't it? Every state has control of immigration and naturalization and their own priorities in doing so. And with more than your USUAL ME state representation of Arab/Christians in your governing body -- it's doing an exemplary job of that. For a ME country that is..

There is no functional USE for Zionism in Israel or the world today other than for ---

A) the token symbolistic nod to the Biblical references of the Jewish heritage in the Holy Land.

And

B) the need to resist the real ANTI-ZIONISTS that literally want Israel to disappear, move or remake it in THEIR image of what the country SHOULD be..

When you have a vibrant economy, a highly educated populace, diplomatic relations with most every country on the globe, a seat in the U.N., an admirable military defense, and a stock market -- there really is no longer any need for a nationalistic movement.

Only the very confused would consider a state that rules over unenfranchised population of several million, about the size of the enfranchised population, a success. By that

That is a UNIQUE problem that most "normal secular states" don't have. And it IS a problem. But the answer to that problem is NOT dismantling Israel and pushing it into the sea (anti-zionist approach) -- the answer is to partner up in a mentoring/stabilizing situation for the Palestinians and get them to focus on THEIR responsibilities towards self-governance and self-rule.

There is no interest in "pushing Israel into the sea". The mentoring of the Palestinians was Britain's duty during the Mandate. It was a failure because Britain did not provide the tutelage for the inhabitants of Palestine (the Palestinians), in accordance with Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations and assist them in establishing their state because they were intent on creating a colony in Palestine for inhabitants of Europe and other locations outside of Palestine. There is no interest on the part of the Israelis to allow the creation of a Palestinian state, so it isn't up for discussion.

 

[Boston1]

Not projecting.. Stating fact.. Zionism is an ancient useless movement. The problem with YOU being an anti-Zionist is your STARTING DEMAND that Israel be dismantled..

And that by all logic and reason -- would soon turn into a very ANTI-JEWISH endeavor..

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is

And what source in Judaism says that, exactly?

It's no problem talking baseless nonsense all day.

What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

".... behave like a normal secular state".. That's a construction of your own ---- isn't it? Every state has control of immigration and naturalization and their own priorities in doing so. And with more than your USUAL ME state representation of Arab/Christians in your governing body -- it's doing an exemplary job of that. For a ME country that is..

There is no functional USE for Zionism in Israel or the world today other than for ---

A) the token symbolistic nod to the Biblical references of the Jewish heritage in the Holy Land.

And

B) the need to resist the real ANTI-ZIONISTS that literally want Israel to disappear, move or remake it in THEIR image of what the country SHOULD be..

When you have a vibrant economy, a highly educated populace, diplomatic relations with most every country on the globe, a seat in the U.N., an admirable military defense, and a stock market -- there really is no longer any need for a nationalistic movement.

Only the very confused would consider a state that rules over unenfranchised population of several million, about the size of the enfranchised population, a success. By that

That is a UNIQUE problem that most "normal secular states" don't have. And it IS a problem. But the answer to that problem is NOT dismantling Israel and pushing it into the sea (anti-zionist approach) -- the answer is to partner up in a mentoring/stabilizing situation for the Palestinians and get them to focus on THEIR responsibilities towards self-governance and self-rule.

There is no interest in "pushing Israel into the sea". The mentoring of the Palestinians was Britain's duty during the Mandate. It was a failure because Britain did not provide the tutelage for the inhabitants of Palestine (the Palestinians), in accordance with Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations and assist them in establishing their state because they were intent on creating a colony in Palestine for inhabitants of Europe and other locations outside of Palestine. There is no interest on the part of the Israelis to allow the creation of a Palestinian state, so it isn't up for discussion.

A blatant lie

Quote

Egypt

"Our aim is the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, November 18, 1965

"Brothers, it is our duty to prepare for the final battle in Palestine." – Nasser, Palestine Day, 1967

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . The mining of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel. Adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel." – Nasser, May 27, 1967

"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967

"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations." – Nasser, May, 30, 1967 after signing a defense pact with Jordan's King Hussein

"We are now ready to confront Israel .... The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of UNEF, but the ... aggression which took place in Palestine ... with the collaboration of Britain and the United States." – Nasser, June 2, 1967

"Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria is in a position to cut Israel in two at Kalkilya, where Israeli territory between the Jordan armistice line and the Mediterranean Sea is only twelve kilometers wide ... ." – El Akhbar newspaper, Cairo, May 31, 1967

Cairo Radio Statements:

May 19, 1967: "This is our chance Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation, to blot out its entire presence in our holy land"

May 22, 1967: "The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map"

May 25, 1967: "The Gulf of Aqaba, by the dictum of history and the protection of our soldiers, is Arab, Arab, Arab."

May 25, 1967: "Millions of Arabs are ... preparing to blow up all of America's interests, all of America's installations, and your entire existence, America."

May 27, 1967: "We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel's death and annihilation."

May 30, 1967: "With the closing of the Gulf of Akaba, Israel is faced with two alternatives either of which will destroy it; it will either be strangled to death by the Arab military and economic boycott, or it will perish by the fire of the Arab forces encompassing it from the South from the North and from the East."

May 30, 1967: "The world will know that the Arabs are girded for battle as the fateful hour approaches."

Jordan

"All of the Arab armies now surround Israel. The UAR, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Lebanon, Algeria, Sudan, and Kuwait. ... There is no difference between one Arab people and another, no difference between one Arab army and another." – King Hussein of Jordan,after signing the pact with Egypt May 30, 1967

Iraq

"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." – President Abdel Rahman Aref of Iraq, May 31, 1967

Palestinians

"D-Day is approaching. The Arabs have waited 19 years for this and will not flinch from the war of liberation." – Ahmed Shukairy, Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, May 27, 1967

"This is a fight for the homeland – it is either us or the Israelis. There is no middle road. The Jews of Palestine will have to leave. We will facilitate their departure to their former homes. Any of the old Palestine Jewish population who survive may stay, but it is my impression that none of them will survive." – Shukairy, June 1, 1967

"We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants and as for the survivors – if there are any – the boats are ready to deport them." – Shukairy, June 1, 1967, speaking at a Friday sermon in Jerusalem

Syria

Syria's forces are "ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united.... I as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." – Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad, May 20, 1967

"Our two brotherly countries have turned into one mobilized force. The withdrawal of the UN forces ... means 'make way, our forces are on their way to battle.'" – Foreign Minister Makhous on his return from Cairo

Others

"The freedom of the homeland will be completed by the destruction of the Zionist entity and the expulsion of the Americans and the British from the region." – Algerian Prime Minister Houari Boumedienne
"We want war. War is the only way to settle the problem of Israel. The Arabs are ready." – Yemeni Foreign Minister Salam

General References

1) Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Mitchell G. Bard, 2001
2) Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Martin Gilbert, 1993
3) Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East, Michael B. Oren, 2002

End Quote

 

[montelatici]

What is wrong with you? You just make things up. Zionism is what is making it impossible for the Israelis to behave like a normal secular state. If there was no overriding need for Jews to rule over non-Jews, there could be a democratic, secular, multi-ethnic, multi-religion state in Palestine tomorrow. As it is
What does Zionism have to do with Judaism?

".... behave like a normal secular state".. That's a construction of your own ---- isn't it? Every state has control of immigration and naturalization and their own priorities in doing so. And with more than your USUAL ME state representation of Arab/Christians in your governing body -- it's doing an exemplary job of that. For a ME country that is..

There is no functional USE for Zionism in Israel or the world today other than for ---

A) the token symbolistic nod to the Biblical references of the Jewish heritage in the Holy Land.

And

B) the need to resist the real ANTI-ZIONISTS that literally want Israel to disappear, move or remake it in THEIR image of what the country SHOULD be..

When you have a vibrant economy, a highly educated populace, diplomatic relations with most every country on the globe, a seat in the U.N., an admirable military defense, and a stock market -- there really is no longer any need for a nationalistic movement.

Only the very confused would consider a state that rules over unenfranchised population of several million, about the size of the enfranchised population, a success. By that

That is a UNIQUE problem that most "normal secular states" don't have. And it IS a problem. But the answer to that problem is NOT dismantling Israel and pushing it into the sea (anti-zionist approach) -- the answer is to partner up in a mentoring/stabilizing situation for the Palestinians and get them to focus on THEIR responsibilities towards self-governance and self-rule.

There is no interest in "pushing Israel into the sea". The mentoring of the Palestinians was Britain's duty during the Mandate. It was a failure because Britain did not provide the tutelage for the inhabitants of Palestine (the Palestinians), in accordance with Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations and assist them in establishing their state because they were intent on creating a colony in Palestine for inhabitants of Europe and other locations outside of Palestine. There is no interest on the part of the Israelis to allow the creation of a Palestinian state, so it isn't up for discussion.

A blatant lie

Quote

Egypt

"Our aim is the full restoration of the rights of the Palestinian people. In other words, we aim at the destruction of the State of Israel. The immediate aim: perfection of Arab military might. The national aim: the eradication of Israel." – President Nasser of Egypt, November 18, 1965

"Brothers, it is our duty to prepare for the final battle in Palestine." – Nasser, Palestine Day, 1967

"Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight . . . The mining of Sharm el Sheikh is a confrontation with Israel. Adopting this measure obligates us to be ready to embark on a general war with Israel." – Nasser, May 27, 1967

"We will not accept any ... coexistence with Israel. ... Today the issue is not the establishment of peace between the Arab states and Israel .... The war with Israel is in effect since 1948." – Nasser, May 28, 1967

"The armies of Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon are poised on the borders of Israel . . . . to face the challenge, while standing behind us are the armies of Iraq, Algeria, Kuwait, Sudan and the whole Arab nation. This act will astound the world. Today they will know that the Arabs are arranged for battle, the critical hour has arrived. We have reached the stage of serious action and not declarations." – Nasser, May, 30, 1967 after signing a defense pact with Jordan's King Hussein

"We are now ready to confront Israel .... The issue now at hand is not the Gulf of Aqaba, the Straits of Tiran, or the withdrawal of UNEF, but the ... aggression which took place in Palestine ... with the collaboration of Britain and the United States." – Nasser, June 2, 1967

"Under terms of the military agreement signed with Jordan, Jordanian artillery co-ordinated with the forces of Egypt and Syria is in a position to cut Israel in two at Kalkilya, where Israeli territory between the Jordan armistice line and the Mediterranean Sea is only twelve kilometers wide ... ." – El Akhbar newspaper, Cairo, May 31, 1967

Cairo Radio Statements:

May 19, 1967: "This is our chance Arabs, to deal Israel a mortal blow of annihilation, to blot out its entire presence in our holy land"

May 22, 1967: "The Arab people is firmly resolved to wipe Israel off the map"

May 25, 1967: "The Gulf of Aqaba, by the dictum of history and the protection of our soldiers, is Arab, Arab, Arab."

May 25, 1967: "Millions of Arabs are ... preparing to blow up all of America's interests, all of America's installations, and your entire existence, America."

May 27, 1967: "We challenge you, Eshkol, to try all your weapons. Put them to the test; they will spell Israel's death and annihilation."

May 30, 1967: "With the closing of the Gulf of Akaba, Israel is faced with two alternatives either of which will destroy it; it will either be strangled to death by the Arab military and economic boycott, or it will perish by the fire of the Arab forces encompassing it from the South from the North and from the East."

May 30, 1967: "The world will know that the Arabs are girded for battle as the fateful hour approaches."

Jordan

"All of the Arab armies now surround Israel. The UAR, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Yemen, Lebanon, Algeria, Sudan, and Kuwait. ... There is no difference between one Arab people and another, no difference between one Arab army and another." – King Hussein of Jordan,after signing the pact with Egypt May 30, 1967

Iraq

"The existence of Israel is an error which must be rectified. This is our opportunity to wipe out the ignominy which has been with us since 1948. Our goal is clear – to wipe Israel off the map. We shall, God willing, meet in Tel Aviv and Haifa." – President Abdel Rahman Aref of Iraq, May 31, 1967

Palestinians

"D-Day is approaching. The Arabs have waited 19 years for this and will not flinch from the war of liberation." – Ahmed Shukairy, Chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, May 27, 1967

"This is a fight for the homeland – it is either us or the Israelis. There is no middle road. The Jews of Palestine will have to leave. We will facilitate their departure to their former homes. Any of the old Palestine Jewish population who survive may stay, but it is my impression that none of them will survive." – Shukairy, June 1, 1967

"We shall destroy Israel and its inhabitants and as for the survivors – if there are any – the boats are ready to deport them." – Shukairy, June 1, 1967, speaking at a Friday sermon in Jerusalem

Syria

Syria's forces are "ready not only to repulse the aggression, but to initiate the act of liberation itself, and to explode the Zionist presence in the Arab homeland. The Syrian army, with its finger on the trigger, is united.... I as a military man, believe that the time has come to enter into a battle of annihilation." – Syrian Defense Minister Hafez Assad, May 20, 1967

"Our two brotherly countries have turned into one mobilized force. The withdrawal of the UN forces ... means 'make way, our forces are on their way to battle.'" – Foreign Minister Makhous on his return from Cairo

Others

"The freedom of the homeland will be completed by the destruction of the Zionist entity and the expulsion of the Americans and the British from the region." – Algerian Prime Minister Houari Boumedienne
"We want war. War is the only way to settle the problem of Israel. The Arabs are ready." – Yemeni Foreign Minister Salam

General References

1) Myths and Facts: A Guide to the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Mitchell G. Bard, 2001
2) Atlas of the Arab-Israeli Conflict, Martin Gilbert, 1993
3) Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East, Michael B. Oren, 2002

End Quote

I don't see any quote of mine in the above quotes. It is not surprising that the Palestinians and their allies would like to do to the Israelis what was done to them. Do you think it is unusual?

 

[flacaltenn]

If I support Israel's right to exist and as a Jew choose not to emigrate to Zion -- am i a BAD jew?

Is the answer yes? ;-)

Not if I spend enough tourist schekels there.. :>)