Simple Poll on Israel

[JBeukema]

Beyond ANY rational or reasonable or fair-minded doubt, the answer is an emphatic "YES." Of course Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign nation.

And Palestine?

Sure. There is no actual "Palestinian people," but if those who consider themselves, now, "Palestinian" desire a homeland of their own -- and many of their Arab brothers claim to believe they do -- then they should carve out and grant them a piece of a the desert and they can call it home.

Just make sure the "borders" don't accidentally overlap with those belonging to Israel.

Okay, then would agree that what we ultimately have is little more than a border dispute?

has anyone suggested making the contested territory a neutral tract governed by a Israeli-Palestinian coalition. Two-state solution with representatives from each nation being chosen (elected or placed according to their representative systems) to a council that will govern the area and supervise a coalition police force comprised of officers from both nations with the mutual goal of keeping the peace and engaging in counter-terrorism?n Have any of the 2-state solutions included such a suggestion?

 

[Liability]

And Palestine?

Sure. There is no actual "Palestinian people," but if those who consider themselves, now, "Palestinian" desire a homeland of their own -- and many of their Arab brothers claim to believe they do -- then they should carve out and grant them a piece of a the desert and they can call it home.

Just make sure the "borders" don't accidentally overlap with those belonging to Israel.

Okay, then would agree that what we ultimately have is little more than a border dispute?

has anyone suggested making the contested territory a neutral tract governed by a Israeli-Palestinian coalition. Two-state solution with representatives from each nation being chosen (elected or placed according to their representative systems) to a council that will govern the area and supervise a coalition police force comprised of officers from both nations with the mutual goal of keeping the peace and engaging in counter-terrorism?n Have any of the 2-state solutions included such a suggestion?

No. Your "proposal" negates the original premise. Israel being entitled to its own sovereign state.

They already have their sovereign state. Their borders are and should remain intact as is. They already acquiesced far too much in giving up portions of their land in exchange for peace -- a peace that never came.

No.

TWO STATES. One = Israel as is and where is.

The other, if need be = Palestine, with its borders to be carved out elsewhere.

 

[elvis]

Ghook the Ironic racist doesn't want any of those A-rabs having authority over a jew in israel. Yet, he has the gal to call someone ELSE an antisemite.


It just doesn't get any richer than that, folks.

The ironic racists in the US don't want al qaeda members having authority over them.

funny how you feel the need to switch from ETHNICITY to political identity, Elvis. Maybe you should ask yourself why you needed to dance around like a fool in such a manner

because the PLO is run by a terrorist.

 

[JBeukema]

No. Your "proposal" negates the original premise. Israel being entitled to its own sovereign state.

Actually, they would have to have their own state in order for both states to be involved in the contested locales.

TWO STATES. One = Israel as is and where is.

The other, if need be = Palestine, with its borders to be carved out elsewhere.

So they have a right to self-determination, just not where they live and their people were before the occupation?

 

[Liability]

No. Your "proposal" negates the original premise. Israel being entitled to its own sovereign state.

Actually, they would have to have their own state in order for both states to be involved in the contested locales.

It is not a soverign state which does not have the right to control its own borders. You can try to parse it however you wish, but you really cannot get around that simple fact.

TWO STATES. One = Israel as is and where is.

The other, if need be = Palestine, with its borders to be carved out elsewhere.

So they have a right to self-determination, just not where they live and their people were before the occupation?

Since they cannot "choose" to live in the land belonging to Israel -- given that whole sovereignty thing which seems to trip you up so badly -- no. Their self-determination does not go so far as to authorize them to try to take any part of Israel. And for the greatest part, most of the folks we laughably call "Palestinian" did NOT live there before Israel became a nation-state.

 

[JBeukema]

It is not a soverign state which does not have the right to control its own borders.

They don't have a right to control their territory as a sovereign nation? What happened to

Beyond ANY rational or reasonable or fair-minded doubt, the answer is an emphatic "YES." Of course Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign nation.

And Palestine?

Sure. ... if those who consider themselves, now, "Palestinian" desire a homeland of their own -- and many of their Arab brothers claim to believe they do -- then they should carve out and grant them a piece of a the desert and they can call it home.

Just make sure the "borders" don't accidentally overlap with those belonging to Israel.

Again, you're basically saying that they have the right to do as they please so long as they're out of the way. You're negating your so-called support for their right to self-determination. Recall that the Jewish Occupation displaced many. Did the Jews have the right to their own nation so long as it was elsewhere? Your reasoning is inconsistent.

If the Jews have a right to the land they an hold, then the Palestinians have the same right to any land they can take and hold. It goes both ways, if one is honest and logically consistent.

Since they cannot "choose" to live in the land belonging to Israel --

If they were born there, then you're correct that they couldn't choose where they were born.Funny that the Zionists chose to live in land that wasn't theirs, yet you seem to have no problem with that.

given that whole sovereignty thing which seems to trip you up so badly -- no. Their self-determination does not go so far as to authorize them to try to take any part of Israel.

Yet the right to a racist religious state for the Jews that Europe wanted to get rid if did go so far as to authorize them to take land belonging to the local population? Your in consistency is a symptom of your dishonesty.


If the Zionists had a right to take it, then the Palestinians have the same right o take it. If the Palestinians are wrong to take it, then the Zionists were wrong to take it and you see the case for those who view themselves as fighting against an occupying force. The motives are simple: Europe wanted to get rid of the Jews. The Jews wanted to make good on their god's promise. Those in the region have viewed themselves as fighting against an occupying force ever since.

America's support for the Zionist Occupation has caused us to be viewed as supporting the Jews in what the Jews present as a holy war for the holy land promised to them by their god. The result was 9-11. Ignorant and dishonest persons like you are why we are so hated. Either the Zionists were wrong to take land or the Palestinians have the right to fight for it and take it if they can. So tell me, which is it?

 

[JenT]

No. Your "proposal" negates the original premise. Israel being entitled to its own sovereign state.

Actually, they would have to have their own state in order for both states to be involved in the contested locales.

It is not a soverign state which does not have the right to control its own borders. You can try to parse it howeer you wish, but you really cannot get around that simple fact.

TWO STATES. One = Israel as is and where is.

The other, if need be = Palestine, with its borders to be carved out elsewhere.

So they have a right to self-determination, just not where they live and their people were before the occupation?

Since they cannot "choose" to live in the land belonging to Israel -- given that whole sovereignty thing which seems to trip you up so badly -- no. Their self-determination does not go so far as to authorize them to try to take any part of Israel. And for the greatest part, most of the folks we laughably call "Palestinian" did NOT live there before Israel became a nation-state.

Add to that the fact that the Jews bought out what they didn't already own.

 

[DiveCon]

Actually, they would have to have their own state in order for both states to be involved in the contested locales.

It is not a soverign state which does not have the right to control its own borders. You can try to parse it howeer you wish, but you really cannot get around that simple fact.

So they have a right to self-determination, just not where they live and their people were before the occupation?

Since they cannot "choose" to live in the land belonging to Israel -- given that whole sovereignty thing which seems to trip you up so badly -- no. Their self-determination does not go so far as to authorize them to try to take any part of Israel. And for the greatest part, most of the folks we laughably call "Palestinian" did NOT live there before Israel became a nation-state.

Add to that the fact that the Jews bought out what they didn't already own.

and they did so several times over

 

[GHook93]

How is the "Jewish state" not ethnocentric? Is Jewish not an ethnicity?

Wow nice straw man. It might be called the Jewish stated, but its ruled as secular state in all matters except marriage. Any arab can run for the Parliament, even they are as antisemitic as some USMB posters

Maybe you don't know what the words you use mean, but I picked up on it. So answer this, excluding Lebanon, how could tiny Israel have more Arabs in this government (even anti-state ones) than the how Arab, Turkish and Persian world has Jews, Christians, Budahist and Hindus in their's?

Because Israel is 25% Arab. I thought that was sort of obvious.

First they are 20% Arab (of Christian, Muslim and Druze background), but of course you miss the point. All your favorite Arab countries are nearly homogeneous, because they are not to tolerate of outsiders! That is why they don't have minorities in their government!

How is that a red herring? The majority of Gazans are refugees from Israel or descendants thereof. Does it not make sense that most Israeli Arabs aren't interested in possibly killing them?

Of course an American Muslim like you wouldn't know loyalty to his country!

Would it have been acceptable for German, Italian or Japanese Americans to refuse to fight in WWI and WWII, because your traitorous rhetoric? Nope and that is why the vast majority of German, Italian and Japanese Americans (even when their families were put in camps) fought for their country. See you have no loyalty to your country so you can't understand others having it for their!

This, in your opinion, justifies collective punishment? A simple "yes" or "no" will suffice...

Your question in a disingenuous attempt to discredit. But I will do my best to answer. If a fraction of a citizenship say for example the Taliban in Pakistan attack say the US/Coalition troops in Afghanistan and the Pakistani government does what it can to stop them then, No collective punishment is not justified.

But if a government supports and carries out attacks like Hamas in Gaza or Germany in WWII, then damn right it you hold the entire State responsible. Hamas supported, mostly carried and did nothing to prevent the missile attacks for Gaza. Therefore Gaza was an enemy state and action Israel took, while unfortunate, were more than justifiable!

False dichotomy. Israel is fully capable of conducting surgical airstrikes against Hamas' military, government, and police installations.

Are you just slow or naive? Hamas doesn't HIDE anything in these marked locations. They hide them in civilian homes, hospitals, schools and mosques. They are cowards with no honor. They don't wear uniforms. Since a simpleton such a yourself will make demands that are impossible, so you can further bash a country.

Oh yea they were doing calculated attacks and it did very little to stop the daily missile attacks! And jokers like you and Shogun cried loud and hard about these justifiable attacks also!

 

[GHook93]

Wow mental midget you answered nothing more than tossing up head herrings! But I will find an easy statistic that will prove you wrong. You are like many of the black youth today who don't follow the lessons MLK and Fredrick Douglas sought to teach. Stand on your own 2 feets and recognize your own ills.

I will get you stats shortly, but its going to be a busy weekend! But leading cause of death amongst African Americans is murder at the hands of other African Americans!

I love how you ignore the brutality that African Nations lead by Africans have inflicted countless times on their own people. At least our President didn't ignore it and finally had the ballz to call the African Nations out for it!

See blacks like you are so used to call blaming others for your problems and never taking responsibility for yourself that it has become second nature for you!

Lol people seriously, if some of you on this post just admited your only beef is that you feel Arabs are all less then human, and regardless of however many arab civilians are shot or blown up, or have limbs blown off, that you would really careless, as long as it's in the name of the Jewish people.

How many African American are butchering other African Americans right in the US? Why don't you start taking responsibility for your own kind.

How many Africans in African are brutally raping and killing their own people! Rape and genocide is an accepted thing in Africa. Why don't you worry about that! See as a black man you an inferiority complex, so you pick on your "******" aka the Jews!

Lol aww yes GHook, I just love your ignorance and overt racism. But to answer your questions there G:

I'm not sure the exact statistics of deaths resulting from violence between African Americans amongst each as of recent, but it's definately alot less then the amount of Arab non-combatants killed over Israels last few offensives, and also there G, I don't have a kind. Such a term would be used when identifying say like a Cocker Spaniel, I came from an ethnic background, and seeing how I or any of the many quite educated individuals I associate with don't commit criminal wrong doings, I am really not going to take responsibility for the actions of an entire ethnic group of people.

Now in regards to Africans, might I add i'm a little puzzled because I never knew Africans lived in "African" as you stated in your quote above, learn something new everyday I guess lol. But as for the Africans that live in Africa, it's very true that issues run rampantly wrong in many parts of Africa, which is something that bothers me to hear about that anywhere in the world.

So you must seriously be like psychic or a mind reader or something. Because you've some how been able to figure out and come to the conclusion that I have an inferiority complex due to my skin's pigmentation, I am truly astonished. Not that somehow you've found some sort of truth, i'm astonished that someone could be so greatly lacking in intelligence that they would post something so idoticly funny like you have lol. Like lastly for instance how for some reason I being a black man consider Jewish people to be my ******* lol? Obviously a term you thought you'd throw in there to make a pathetic attempt at pushing my buttons, nice try though lol. Especially seeing how you've done little more then showcase your own sheer stupidity. Oh and one last thing, perhaps you should check into some sort of Hebrew to English language course, because you spell like a 2 year old.

Mawz-ul toff there GHook, looking forward to your next racisim ladened hate filled response ha ha....

 

[GHook93]

Kevin_Kennedy: The Confederate States were well within their rights to secede from the Union. It was Lincoln that was wrong by invading them and forcing them back into a Union against their free will.

You are 100% right the South had a right to secede, and we are so fortunate that AL smash mouthed them and knee dropped them, breaking the collective back of states' rights. Thank God for Lincoln. If the Founders had it wrong on that issue, so be it.

The founders didn't have it wrong on that issue, Lincoln did. He destroyed states' rights and set us up for the gargantuan state we live under today.

Let's you your famous cowardly quote, where exactly, exact wordings, in the constitution does it give states the right to secede?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Kevin_Kennedy: The Confederate States were well within their rights to secede from the Union. It was Lincoln that was wrong by invading them and forcing them back into a Union against their free will.

You are 100% right the South had a right to secede, and we are so fortunate that AL smash mouthed them and knee dropped them, breaking the collective back of states' rights. Thank God for Lincoln. If the Founders had it wrong on that issue, so be it.

The founders didn't have it wrong on that issue, Lincoln did. He destroyed states' rights and set us up for the gargantuan state we live under today.

Let's you your famous cowardly quote, where exactly, exact wordings, in the constitution does it give states the right to secede?

Yes, it was off-topic. That's why I started a new thread for those who wished to discuss the topic further. The Constitution doesn't have to explicitly state the rights of the individual states or of the people, the 9th and 10th Amendments make this very clear. It must, however, explicitly state the powers of the federal government, otherwise it's actions are unconstitutional. Which the 10th Amendment, once again, makes clear.

You should have used the time you spent neg-repping me to actually read the Constitution. It would have been a far better use of your time.

 

[jodylee]

Good GOD you ARE a moron. It is a matter of HISTORY you dumb ass. Try actually learning some.

who's version of history are we talking about, the telly tubbies? or did you learn it on sesame street?

Ya there was no 48 war, I got ya, live your ignorant version of life all you want, you dumb as a rock retard.

Most Arabs living in Palestine had fled or been shot in the villages they where born in by '47, the 48 invasion was retaliation by the arab states at the formation of israel. All sources balanced or unbalanced state this you are just trying to twist the truth and hope a few less educated people will take your word for it. the truth is the Israeli's massacred thousands of Palestinians in there own homes the rest fled. I have spoke to palestinians who still have the deeds and keys to their homes but some israeli family are living in it. How would you like it if Mexico decided to create a state inside the US killing thousands of American in its formation and backed by china. what then?

 

[dj defkawn]

Actually brilliant one, I beleive the correct expression would be "on your own 2 feet lol." The teachings of Dr. King and Douglas, the ones like overcoming adversity and succeeding in the face of hardship, you mean those teachings right? Funny how you speak the names of those two great men when so far you've used the word ******, and you even left me some negative rep calling me a spear chucker, obviously a pathetic attempt to try and tick me off, because you can't think of anything a little more educated to atempt to refute my truthful points lol. You know it's Jewish people that tick me off, walk around with a chip on your shoulder quick to call anti-semite because someone has the nerve to confront the way you treat people badly which you justify due to the horrific acts that occured against jews during the holocaust. Lol blacks like me you say, funny how you seem to have my view on life all figured out due to the color of skin lol. But hey look on the bright side GHook, if you don't like a forum like this where people make fun of your ever lacking ability to spell, and your generalization of people based on their skin color or ethnic background. Look on the bright side, i'm sure the Israeli Defense Forces have some positions available lol.

 

[GHook93]

Actually brilliant one, I beleive the correct expression would be "on your own 2 feet lol." The teachings of Dr. King and Douglas, the ones like overcoming adversity and succeeding in the face of hardship, you mean those teachings right?

Why would that be? I see both Douglass and MLK as two of the best AMERICANS to ever grace the earth. I think I respect their memories more than you do!

Funny how you speak the names of those two great men when so far you've used the word ******,

Please don't defame me! Please acknowledge the context of the wording I used it in. I didn't call you a ******. Rather I stated you have pick on your ****** to the Jews! Much different than comming out and calling you or anyone it!

Quote by: GHook93
See as a black man you have an inferiority complex, so you pick on your "******" aka the Jews!

and you even left me some negative rep calling me a spear chucker, obviously a pathetic attempt to try and tick me off, because you can't think of anything a little more educated to atempt to refute my truthful points lol.

Y
You're right it was petty and uncalled for and I posted it to piss you off, since you arrogance and ignorance pissed me off. I shouldn't have taken it to that level, I apologize!

you know it's Jewish people that tick me off, walk around with a chip on your shoulder quick to call anti-semite because someone has the nerve to confront the way you treat people badly which you justify due to the horrific acts that occured against jews during the holocaust

.
Having funny picking on your "******" again huh! You know the Jews as a group have stood side by side with the black man many times. Of course you can always find a few bad apples, but in general that is not the case. From busing, to marches, to the Civil Rights movement itself etc. Time after time they have stood by the black man and people like you bite that hand after it served you so well!

 

[Shogun]

and you even left me some negative rep calling me a spear chucker

serisouly.. WHO the fuck is really shocked by this? SERIOUSLY. When it comes to disagreeing with a jew you ARE nothing more than a goyim ******. Do you think it's outlandish that Ghook ALSO supports segregation in israel and ALSO rationalizes state based racism the likes of which would give a boner to a White Southerner in 1945?

 

[dj defkawn]

GHook honestly I do have to acknowledge your apology, I think that took alot for you to say, and for that I thank you, but seriously ******??? I think once you take to posting blatantly offensive racial slurs like that, then you've strayed way outside the realm of a productive discussion. I mean seriously, do you even know the meaning of that word, and if so, then how exactly is it you feel that I consider the jews as slaves, that's a pretty far fetched claim I must say.

But seriously, even mentioning the N word in any context like you have just shows absolute ignorance on your part.

That's funny because I truly respect the memories of people like Dr.King and Douglas, men who went through untold countless hardships in the hopes that today I wouldn't have to because of skin color.

 

[GHook93]

GHook honestly I do have to acknowledge your apology, I think that took alot for you to say, and for that I thank you, but seriously ******??? I think once you take to posting blatantly offensive racial slurs like that, then you've strayed way outside the realm of a productive discussion. I mean seriously, do you even know the meaning of that word, and if so, then how exactly is it you feel that I consider the jews as slaves, that's a pretty far fetched claim I must say.

But seriously, even mentioning the N word in any context like you have just shows absolute ignorance on your part.

Did I drop the N bomb on you! Nope! It would be like saying to a Jew the Arabs are your Kikes! Much different that saying you are a dirty ****! The way I used it was not in any way racial!

I believe I started a thread about what many African Americans brought to this country!

That's funny because I truly respect the memories of people like Dr.King and Douglas, men who went through untold countless hardships in the hopes that today I wouldn't have to because of skin color.

Wrong because you disrespect both of them caring more about color than you do about the content of one's character!

 

[jodylee]

Jewish is not a ethnicity its a religion. the Vast Majority of Jews today are ethnically Georgan/Turkish from the Khazars, the percentage is higher amongst Isreali Jews.
Just thought i'd throw that in there.

 

[L.K.Eder]

Jewish is not a ethnicity its a religion. the Vast Majority of Jews today are ethnically Georgan/Turkish from the Khazars, the percentage is higher amongst Isreali Jews.
Just thought i'd throw that in there.

I wish you hadn't.