Single Pay Education

[random3434]

Sounds like a power-grubbing government band-aid to me.

You want an idea for real reform?

Take all the public money we currently spend on education, including college, and redirect it to K-8 only. And make it count. Allow students to take as long as they need to pass each level up to age 21, with a sliding cash bonus for early completion. Everything after that is private.

The student/teacher ratios would decline dramatically, affording more attention and allowing for much greater flexibility in lesson planning and pace, during the most critical period of a person’s intellectual development. Smarter students will earn scholarships or work for employers that will fund higher education, and the slower students don’t get left behind. And we all truly benefit from bringing up the bottom without lowering the top, which necessarily raises the overall average.

That makes a lot of sense, I wonder if it could be implemented?

 

[manifold]

Sounds like a power-grubbing government band-aid to me.

You want an idea for real reform?

Take all the public money we currently spend on education, including college, and redirect it to K-8 only. And make it count. Allow students to take as long as they need to pass each level up to age 21, with a sliding cash bonus for early completion. Everything after that is private.

The student/teacher ratios would decline dramatically, affording more attention and allowing for much greater flexibility in lesson planning and pace, during the most critical period of a person’s intellectual development. Smarter students will earn scholarships or work for employers that will fund higher education, and the slower students don’t get left behind. And we all truly benefit from bringing up the bottom without lowering the top, which necessarily raises the overall average.

That makes a lot of sense, I wonder if it could be implemented?

I think the hard part would be getting the plan adopted.

 

[xotoxi]

Sounds like a power-grubbing government band-aid to me.

You want an idea for real reform?

Take all the public money we currently spend on education, including college, and redirect it to K-8 only. And make it count. Allow students to take as long as they need to pass each level up to age 21, with a sliding cash bonus for early completion. Everything after that is private.

The student/teacher ratios would decline dramatically, affording more attention and allowing for much greater flexibility in lesson planning and pace, during the most critical period of a person’s intellectual development. Smarter students will earn scholarships or work for employers that will fund higher education, and the slower students don’t get left behind. And we all truly benefit from bringing up the bottom without lowering the top, which necessarily raises the overall average.

One thing about your plan...would it save money? It sounds to me like it would be the K-12 curriculum crammed down into 8 years. And if you want lower student/teacher ratios as you mentioned, it would be the same number of teachers as well.

And if it does not dramatically decrease the cost of education, then what you are left with is a compressed version of our current system with a bunch of 13 year old HS grads that are still 3 years from being eligible for their drivers license.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

If a parent is intellectually capable of educating their child, and they pawn them off on the government donut factory instead because it is too inconvenient for them to do it, they are lazy parents, in my opinion.

I am intellectually capable of educating my children.

Therefore, is it lazy for me to continue to work as a physician and send my children to be educated by people who are specifically trained to teach children.

Or, do you suggest that I should shut down my medical practice and personally homeschool my kids until they are 18...

Why is it, when a person speaks of getting the feds out of education, home schooling is the only option some can see? Read my posts more carefully. You are missing the point here.

But to answer your question, if you are putting your career first, instead of your kids, you are a lazy parent, in my opinion. That is my personal opinion. That is not the same as a constitution answer and I distinguished between the two in the thread already.

 

[random3434]

Sounds like a power-grubbing government band-aid to me.

You want an idea for real reform?

Take all the public money we currently spend on education, including college, and redirect it to K-8 only. And make it count. Allow students to take as long as they need to pass each level up to age 21, with a sliding cash bonus for early completion. Everything after that is private.

The student/teacher ratios would decline dramatically, affording more attention and allowing for much greater flexibility in lesson planning and pace, during the most critical period of a person’s intellectual development. Smarter students will earn scholarships or work for employers that will fund higher education, and the slower students don’t get left behind. And we all truly benefit from bringing up the bottom without lowering the top, which necessarily raises the overall average.

One thing about your plan...would it save money? It sounds to me like it would be the K-12 curriculum crammed down into 8 years. And if you want lower student/teacher ratios as you mentioned, it would be the same number of teachers as well.

And if it does not dramatically decrease the cost of education, then what you are left with is a compressed version of our current system with a bunch of 13 year old HS grads that are still 3 years from being eligible for their drivers license.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think mani is saying his idea is for K-8, then they go to a private high school, maybe like a magnet school. By then a lot of kids know what they want to study, and different high schools could focus on different curriculums.


Is that what you're talking about mani?

And for those that just can't pass, they would continue in the K-8 school until they can.

 

[xotoxi]

But to answer your question, if you are putting your career first, instead of your kids, you are a lazy parent, in my opinion. That is my personal opinion.

Okay...but luckily the majority of people don't share your option. Otherwise, the US economy would collapse.

Do you realize how many people in the workforce have school-aged children? Imagine if they ALL quit their job to exclusively raise their kids.

 

[manifold]

I'm not suggesting we save money. I'm suggesting we spend the same we are spending today, including on college. And it's not a K-12 curriculum, it's an honest K-8 curriculum. You don't need Calculus, or even geometry for example, but you better know your damn sums and multiplication tables. These higher level disciplines don't benefit people who will never understand them. And they're not a requirement for pretty much any career path said people ultimately choose. I honestly don't think society is currently getting much return on our education investment. I think we would under this plan.

 

[random3434]

I'm not suggesting we save money. I'm suggesting we spend the same we are spending today, including on college. And it's not a K-12 curriculum, it's an honest K-8 curriculum. You don't need Calculus, or even geometry for example, but you better know your damn sums and multiplication tables. These higher level disciplines don't benefit people who will never understand them. And they're not a requirement for pretty much any career path said people ultimately choose. I honestly don't think society is currently getting much return on our education investment. I think we would under this plan.

Damn mani! I'm more impressed with each post of yours here!

So true, and then if they want to go to a higher level of learning, that option is there for them! Kids are rushed through so much now, they need to know this and that by a timeline that the state sets. Letting them learn at their own pace, and really learning and retaining the information,makes so much sense!

I really think something like this could work...

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

But to answer your question, if you are putting your career first, instead of your kids, you are a lazy parent, in my opinion. That is my personal opinion.

Okay...but luckily the majority of people don't share your option. Otherwise, the US economy would collapse.

Do you realize how many people in the workforce have school-aged children? Imagine if they ALL quit their job to exclusively raise their kids.

You keep bringing up home schooling. I haven't been pushing that, although I have stated it is an option. Trying to twist my words is not going to work.

A person can have a career, and their child be educated without the feds being involved.

 

[manifold]

Maybe I'm wrong, but I think mani is saying his idea is for K-8, then they go to a private high school, maybe like a magnet school. By then a lot of kids know what they want to study, and different high schools could focus on different curriculums.


Is that what you're talking about mani?

And for those that just can't pass, they would continue in the K-8 school until they can.

Pretty much.

With government out of funding higher education, you'd see competition drive prices down significantly. And I'd also just give the early completion cash bonues without stringss

 

[xotoxi]

But to answer your question, if you are putting your career first, instead of your kids, you are a lazy parent, in my opinion. That is my personal opinion.

Okay...but luckily the majority of people don't share your option. Otherwise, the US economy would collapse.

Do you realize how many people in the workforce have school-aged children? Imagine if they ALL quit their job to exclusively raise their kids.

You keep bringing up home schooling. I haven't been pushing that, although I have stated it is an option. Trying to twist my words is not going to work.

A person can have a career, and their child be educated without the feds being involved.

Yet, I am still lazy because I continue my career? I really don't understand.

Either I choose the lazy path and continue to work 80 hours a week seeing 70-80 patients a day...or I give up my career and send my kids to private school?

Maybe I'm lazy AND dumb, because I just don't catch yoru drift.

 

[BasicGreatGuy]

Okay...but luckily the majority of people don't share your option. Otherwise, the US economy would collapse.

Do you realize how many people in the workforce have school-aged children? Imagine if they ALL quit their job to exclusively raise their kids.

You keep bringing up home schooling. I haven't been pushing that, although I have stated it is an option. Trying to twist my words is not going to work.

A person can have a career, and their child be educated without the feds being involved.

Yet, I am still lazy because I continue my career? I really don't understand.

Either I choose the lazy path and continue to work 80 hours a week seeing 70-80 patients a day...or I give up my career and send my kids to private school?

Maybe I'm lazy AND dumb, because I just don't catch yoru drift.

You continually twist my words to try and fit your point, because you don't agree with me. I have been very clear in my posting.

Even though I continue to state what I have been saying all along, you keep on with the twist game. That is lazy debating, not to mention intellectually dishonest. If you were interested in honest debate, you wouldn't be trying to play these kind of games.

Debate with someone else. It is a waste of my time to continue on. I don't play games.

 

[Care4all]

How about parents taking responsibility for educating their own kids, instead of looking to government to wipe their butt for them?

Have you met most parents?

What does that have to do with the core issue? Why is it, so many people complain about the political whores in Washington, and the ever growing expanse of government, and then want government to fix another problem that they helped to create? That is illogical.

According to the Constitution, the federal government has no business in the education business to begin with. But people have gotten so used to their big government wipe my butt for my ways, they see the Constitution way as foreign and wrong.

If people of the respective states want to have their government wipe their butt for them in this area, then they can pay for it themselves. i want no part of paying for someone else in a different state.

It is sad that so many feel lost without the feds. And it is just as troubling, that so many self-professing conservatives rail on the self-professed liberals for loving their welfare, while being in love with it themselves.

How about we actually follow the Constitution, instead of trying to cherry pick it apart? How about people start practicing personal responsibility and accountability?

For those that don't have the ability to home school or make other private entity arrangements, and for those who are orphans, education can still be accomplished, without the federal government. A lot of people don't want to hear all that though. It is too hard for them. It requires too much time and sacrifice. It is easier for them to pawn their kids off on someone else to babysit / teach.

fyi! your view would have killed our democracy, thank God our founding Fathers knew that an educated populous was the way to keep our democratic republic and our gvt honest....i think you should rethink your position, if i understood it correctly?

Jefferson on Politics & Government: Publicly Supported Education

Thomas Jefferson on Politics & Government

40. Publicly Supported Education

Jefferson developed an elaborate plan for making education available to every citizen, and for providing a complete education through university for talented youths who were unable to afford it. He considered his most important accomplishment, after Author of the Declaration of Independence and the Statute for Religious Freedom, to have been the Father of the University of Virginia.

"I have indeed two great measures at heart, without which no republic can maintain itself in strength: 1. That of general education, to enable every man to judge for himself what will secure or endanger his freedom. 2. To divide every county into hundreds, of such size that all the children of each will be within reach of a central school in it." --Thomas Jefferson to John Tyler, 1810. ME 12:393

"Of all the views of this law [for public education], none is more important, none more legitimate, than that of rendering the people the safe as they are the ultimate guardians of their own liberty." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:206

"Education not being a branch of municipal government, but, like the other arts and sciences, an accident [i.e., attribute] only, I did not place it with election as a fundamental member in the structure of government." --Thomas Jefferson to John Taylor, 1816. ME 15:45

"Education is here placed among the articles of public care, not that it would be proposed to take its ordinary branches out of the hands of private enterprise, which manages so much better all the concerns to which it is equal; but a public institution can alone supply those sciences which, though rarely called for, are yet necessary to complete the circle, all the parts of which contribute to the improvement of the country, and some of them to its preservation." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806. ME 3:423

"The present consideration of a national establishment for education, particularly, is rendered proper by this circumstance also, that if Congress, approving the proposition, shall yet think it more eligible to found it on a donation of lands, they have it now in their power to endow it with those which will be among the earliest to produce the necessary income. The foundation would have the advantage of being independent on war, which may suspend other improvements by requiring for its own purposes the resources destined for them." --Thomas Jefferson: 6th Annual Message, 1806. ME 3:424

A Bill for Educating the Masses

"The object [of my education bill was] to bring into action that mass of talents which lies buried in poverty in every country for want of the means of development, and thus give activity to a mass of mind which in proportion to our population shall be the double or treble of what it is in most countries." --Thomas Jefferson to M. Correa de Serra, 1817. ME 15:156

"The general objects [of a bill to diffuse knowledge more generally through the mass of the people] are to provide an education adapted to the years, to the capacity, and the condition of every one, and directed to their freedom and happiness." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XIV, 1782. ME 2:204

"A bill for the more general diffusion of learning... proposed to divide every county into wards of five or six miles square;... to establish in each ward a free school for reading, writing and common arithmetic; to provide for the annual selection of the best subjects from these schools, who might receive at the public expense a higher degree of education at a district school; and from these district schools to select a certain number of the most promising subjects, to be completed at an University where all the useful sciences should be taught. Worth and genius would thus have been sought out from every condition of life, and completely prepared by education for defeating the competition of wealth and birth for public trusts." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1813. ME 13:399

"This [bill] on education would [raise] the mass of the people to the high ground of moral respectability necessary to their own safety and to orderly government, and would [complete] the great object of qualifying them to secure the veritable aristoi for the trusts of government, to the exclusion of the pseudalists... I have great hope that some patriotic spirit will... call it up and make it the keystone of the arch of our government." --Thomas Jefferson to John Adams, 1813. ME 13:400

"My partiality for that division [of every county into wards] is not founded in views of education solely, but infinitely more as the means of a better administration of our government, and the eternal preservation of its republican principles. The example of this most admirable of all human contrivances in government, is to be seen in our Eastern States; and its powerful effect in the order and economy of their internal affairs, and the momentum it gives them as a nation, is the single circumstance which distinguishes them so remarkably from every other national association." --Thomas Jefferson to Wilson C. Nicholas, 1816. ME 14:454

"The less wealthy people,... by the bill for a general education, would be qualified to understand their rights, to maintain them, and to exercise with intelligence their parts in self-government; and all this would be effected without the violation of a single natural right of any one individual citizen." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:73