So You Despise Capitalism? Please Give Us Your Alternative...

[Intense]

When the government is confiscating and spending trillions of dollars it didn't earn

Study the global market system.

You will notice that American business depends upon resources and labor markets from nearly every corner of the globe.

Who do you think stabilizes trade routes or 3rd world countries run by tyrants? Do you know how much public investment has gone into Washington's visionary globalism, which they've been working on for over 1/2 a century? Do you know how much business depends on this globalism which has been developed and is sustained by government spending?

or...

Do you know what government did with returning WWII Vets? It put them to work building the infrastructure of suburban America - building roads, bridges, buildings, energy grids, water treatment plants, dams, etc., i.e., the necessary infrastructure upon which commerce depends.

Seems like you would need to list exactly what government does before you evaluated their spending.

My friend was doing archelogical work in central Africa. He stayed in a place where you had to unplug the appliances before going to bed every night because there were no fire codes or regulations. He also had to boil his water because there were no modern water facilities or regulations to ensure trustworthy drinking water. He had to drive 2 hours or have food transported long distances because there were no regulations in the local agriculture market, and people kept dying from pesticides and insufficiently protected food. This place also lacked the transportation infrastructure to move customers, goods, and services; therefore, it was not profitable for any business to invest in the area. (Aside from the costs of building modern transportation and food systems - aside from the costs of building modern sewer systems and electrical grids and the entire universe of public works - do you know the costs of maintaining these vast systems? Have you ever studied any of this? You should take a course in civil engineering. Look into how much your modern world cost to build. Look into who paid for it.)

(Is FOX News really this strong)

Business depends on a modern infrastructure and the regulation necessary to ensure safety and predictably. Business could not invest in a property that was in a flood plain or lacked sufficient fire codes or was not protected on some minimum level by police. Who do you think does all this? Just take law enforcement alone? Do you know how much government spends to protect private property so commerce is possible in the first place? -not only at level of policing but the courts? Meaning: business stands on the broad shoulders of the state in order to function. The Hoover Dam is responsible for much of the water (and power) of the American Southwest; indeed, it is the reason whole parts of the country exist in the first place. The consumer electronics boom in the 80s was heavily dependent upon the Cold War Pentagon and NASA budgets. (Do you know the kinds of technology the military developed and then handed to the private sector? Have you studied the Relationship between the government and research departments at places like Stanford and MIT? Do you know where commercial aviation came form? Study the history of Boeing. Government spending is directly & indirectly at the base of more things than you could name or count)

Please broaden your information sources. You might discover that jobs are not born in a vacuum, and that the modern industrial state is heavily dependent upon government to create the conditions for commerce.

Be careful with simplistic narratives about the evil government versus the innocent entrepreneur. If you look behind the curtain you might discover that commerce has always come from a very complex partnership.

All good points, yet Government and Infrastructure grow in Proportion with the Society. The Balance is Delicate. Government, as you see it, is in fact supported by the Society, by consent, at least in a Free Society, or a Just Society. Power does Corrupt, and Absolute Power does corrupt, absolutely. Something to keep in mind in relation to checks and balances. For a Government to Establish and Serve Justice with Impartiality, is not an easy task. It's easy to stray, it's easy to mislead, it's easy to misdirect. Corruption at any level, be it Government or Private, is what eats away the peace, the quality of life.

 

[Moonglow]

the railroads have always had govt. backing and monies,is this capitalism? no

 

[kaz]

the railroads have always had govt. backing and monies,is this capitalism? no

No. You can argue that tracks for railroads like roadways are necessary and government should fund them as a "natural monopoly," but it's still not "capitalism."

 

[Uncensored2008]

Why don't you start by defining what you think it means to be "anti-Capitalism" ?

I'd be interested in what you think "Capitalism" is?

For interest, does the phrase; "control of the means of production by the state" define Capitalism in your opinion? Is "centrally planned" the basic foundation of a capitalist economy in your understanding?

 

[Moonglow]

The means of production are controlled by what is needed and will sell. That is not capitalism either. As long as corporations are considered people then u will never have a true capitalistic form of economy

 

[thereisnospoon]

Be careful with simplistic narratives about the evil government versus the innocent entrepreneur. If you look behind the curtain you might discover that commerce has always come from a very complex partnership.

Only a small part of government spending is going to fire codes. You say I'm simplistic, then present me the choice of no government or the massive wasteful pig we have today. And BTW, I'm a libertarian not an anarchist. I believe in limiting government, not eliminating it.

Even a limited government should protect its citizens against predatory Capitalists.

Would you please elaborate.
Give your idea of a proper economic system.

 

[Uncensored2008]

"Well, they want "fairness". Meaning total equality"

I'd say that a majority of Americans do want "fairness" and at least something closer to the wealth/income equality than we have now. They would be thrilled if their share of the National Income was like what it was 1960's & 1970's, when the Middle Class was strong. Too many, that'd would be fair, except for the defenders of today's status qua of a failing Main Street America.

Because the middle class had it a lot better in the 60's and 70's - right?

The purchasing power of middle Americans was way higher, that's the fantasy you're selling, right?

Say sparky, what was the average home size? How many bathrooms? How many had pools? How many cars did most families have? How many TV's? How many could afford to send their children to college? How often could the average family afford to eat steak? Go out to eat? See a movie?

 

[kaz]

The means of production are controlled by what is needed and will sell. That is not capitalism either. As long as corporations are considered people then u will never have a true capitalistic form of economy

Ironically the left don't want corporations to have the freedom (speech, lobbying government), that "people" do but they do want them to have the responsibilities (taxes, regulations, ...) that people do.

As for me, I consistently want companies to be limited liability instruments to foster economic activity with no rights or responsibilities to themselves, but that their owners (shareholders) have fully both.

 

[Moonglow]

the left does allow corporations to have free speech, it can't be stopped I believe that anti-lobby efforts are both a right and left issue

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

This is right up there with "are you still beating your wife."

Correct.

The OP’s is an idiotic premise. Whatever the disagreements between left and right, both are dedicated to free market capitalism.

 

[kaz]

This is right up there with "are you still beating your wife."

Correct.

The OP’s is an idiotic premise. Whatever the disagreements between left and right, both are dedicated to free market capitalism.

Yeah...

 

[thereisnospoon]

the railroads have always had govt. backing and monies,is this capitalism? no

No. The federal government had to step in and bail out the railroads due to the increase in freight carried by first, trucks then aircraft.
For example....Central Railroad of New Jersey, Erie Lackawanna, Lehigh & Hudson River, Lehigh Valley, Penn Central, and Reading As well as small railways had to be essentially bought up by the federal government.
Conrail: A Brief History
As of 1987 the federal government had gotten out of the railroad business as Conrail turned a profit for the first time ever.
The notion held by the pro big government Left that nothing in this country can happen without the input or origination by government is false.

 

[rdean]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...d-have-to-do-with-capitalism.html#post4255993

Clearly, the Republicans on this board don't understand capitalism. Never do they mention "supply and demand". I included a definition from:
English-Online
Articles in Easy, Understandable English for Learners

I thought it would be helpful. It's not too late to learn.

 

[Uncensored2008]

The means of production are controlled by what is needed and will sell. That is not capitalism either. As long as corporations are considered people then u will never have a true capitalistic form of economy

You mix pears and hand grenades.

Capitalism is simply the trade of capital between entities, whether individuals or organizations on an at-will basis.

In such a capitalist society, production is not controlled. The market provides opportunities for those who are willing to engage. Individuals or organizations craft goods and services that they perceive add value. If they indeed add value, then consumers will buy the goods and services, trading value for value. The consideration of corporations as people is a legal consideration and is irrelevant to market economics. McDonald's doesn't dominate the fast food market because the courts consider the corporation a legal entity, but because McDonald's appeals to the desires of the consumer who perceives value in their product in excess of the value of the cash they trade in exchange.

 

[Intense]

This is right up there with "are you still beating your wife."

Correct.

The OP’s is an idiotic premise. Whatever the disagreements between left and right, both are dedicated to free market capitalism.

You may be, but you don't speak for everyone.

 

[kaz]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...d-have-to-do-with-capitalism.html#post4255993

Clearly, the Republicans on this board don't understand capitalism. Never do they mention "supply and demand". I included a definition from:
English-Online
Articles in Easy, Understandable English for Learners

I thought it would be helpful. It's not too late to learn.

Capitalism is when government controls corporations to ensure they provide in a way that support's the government's social policy customers the same amount of every product at the same price regardless of their ability to pay.

 

[kaz]

http://www.usmessageboard.com/econo...d-have-to-do-with-capitalism.html#post4255993

Clearly, the Republicans on this board don't understand capitalism. Never do they mention "supply and demand". I included a definition from:
English-Online
Articles in Easy, Understandable English for Learners

I thought it would be helpful. It's not too late to learn.

Capitalism is when government controls corporations to ensure they provide in a way that support's the government's social policy customers the same amount of every product at the same price regardless of their ability to pay.

Oh, sorry, forgot supply and demand. When customers demand their "fair share" of a company's product, it's their job to supply it...

 

[Kuros]

We just need more honest discussion on this. It's time to hash this out. No need to hedge on your opinions here either. If you're Anti-Capitalism,just say it and then elaborate on it. And your ideas on an alternative system will be appreciated. Lets have an open & honest discussion on this.

Are you against the Federal Reserve? If so, why do you hate capitalism?

See what I did there?

(asshole)

 

[Intense]

The means of production are controlled by what is needed and will sell. That is not capitalism either. As long as corporations are considered people then u will never have a true capitalistic form of economy

You mix pears and hand grenades.

Capitalism is simply the trade of capital between entities, whether individuals or organizations on an at-will basis.

In such a capitalist society, production is not controlled. The market provides opportunities for those who are willing to engage. Individuals or organizations craft goods and services that they perceive add value. If they indeed add value, then consumers will buy the goods and services, trading value for value. The consideration of corporations as people is a legal consideration and is irrelevant to market economics. McDonald's doesn't dominate the fast food market because the courts consider the corporation a legal entity, but because McDonald's appeals to the desires of the consumer who perceives value in their product in excess of the value of the cash they trade in exchange.

Or convenience, or necessity, need, still value for value, generally by consent, free will, value for value. That is until Contracts, Government Enforcement and Protection , Monopoly, enter the equation. Sometimes rightly so, sometimes not. Still, no substitute for Value for Value".

 

[kaz]

We just need more honest discussion on this. It's time to hash this out. No need to hedge on your opinions here either. If you're Anti-Capitalism,just say it and then elaborate on it. And your ideas on an alternative system will be appreciated. Lets have an open & honest discussion on this.

Are you against the Federal Reserve? If so, why do you hate capitalism?

See what I did there?

(asshole)

What you did is a non-sequitur, but I don't see how it corresponds to his post. I don't see any non-sequiturs in his post.