Socialized medicine does not work...

[owebo]

They don't demand you pay them. And they don't owe you a damn thing. How amazing leftist entitlement is.

They set the rates. They are the parasites. How come your premiums are so expensive? Because they have to make a profit. Health is one of the few industries that should not be for profit (I'm talking about the hospital side of things, not the drugs and all the peripheral stuff)

so doctors, nurses, the janitors, food prep people, all of those that develop, build, sell and maintain the equipment should all work for free? hospitals should never upgrade in order to keep up with technology?
interesting

"Not for profit" doesn't mean that health care workers should work for free. It means hospitals should be owned by their communities and not run as commercial businesses.

OK....if all hospitals are run this way, then where does the innovation come from?

 

[Dr Grump]

this is not New Zealand, we have a totally different economic system here.
But, Im sure there is nothing keeping you from heading to New Zealand to obtain your superior medical care.
I will never understand liberals, everything should be free, nobody should make a profit, and at the same time everyone should be able to raise a family of four with money left over when their only income is from sweeping the hair off the barber shop floor, or slinging pre-made burgers at some fast food place.

I am a NZer. And yes, our care is as good as yours. Cheaper too.

No, liberals don't want anything for free. Nobody does except leeches on society. And they are a very, very, very small group of people. Somehow, it has entered the US lexicon that they are liberals. They are not. It is just a divide and conquer stance made by neocon whackjobs to make themselves feel better and superior. Go and ask any liberal on this board. Any one of them. There are plenty of them. NYCaribeneer, iceberg slim, JQpublic. Not one of them wants anything for free. It is just a conservative talking point to make themselves feel better. More empowered. More important. But it's BS.

 

[Maryland Patriot]

They don't demand you pay them. And they don't owe you a damn thing. How amazing leftist entitlement is.

They set the rates. They are the parasites. How come your premiums are so expensive? Because they have to make a profit. Health is one of the few industries that should not be for profit (I'm talking about the hospital side of things, not the drugs and all the peripheral stuff)

so doctors, nurses, the janitors, food prep people, all of those that develop, build, sell and maintain the equipment should all work for free? hospitals should never upgrade in order to keep up with technology?
interesting

"Not for profit" doesn't mean that health care workers should work for free. It means hospitals should be owned by their communities and not run as commercial businesses.

OK....if all hospitals are run this way, then where does the innovation come from?

other countries that have for profit systems.

 

[owebo]

They don't demand you pay them. And they don't owe you a damn thing. How amazing leftist entitlement is.

They set the rates. They are the parasites. How come your premiums are so expensive? Because they have to make a profit. Health is one of the few industries that should not be for profit (I'm talking about the hospital side of things, not the drugs and all the peripheral stuff)

so doctors, nurses, the janitors, food prep people, all of those that develop, build, sell and maintain the equipment should all work for free? hospitals should never upgrade in order to keep up with technology?
interesting

"Not for profit" doesn't mean that health care workers should work for free. It means hospitals should be owned by their communities and not run as commercial businesses.

OK....if all hospitals are run this way, then where does the innovation come from?

other countries that have for profit systems.

True....and without profit, our hospitals won't be able to pay for their innovation.....

Seems quite arcane....almost Stone Age.....then to make up for the lack of innovation, liberals create things like their death panel to,deal with the problem....

 

[Wiskers Von Pussyboots]

There is no way It can work in the US... there are too many parasites in society

What do you call parasites?

Me? The insurance companies are the parasites...

They don't demand you pay them. And they don't owe you a damn thing. How amazing leftist entitlement is.

Yeah, like they expect a job so that they can support themselves, which they cannot get. The ones who want to work sell drugs.

What is this guy talking about?

 

[Andylusion]

[



The left doesn't understand the concept of insurance. They think because insurance companies should pay for everything because they make a lot of money. Insurance will pay huge hospital bills, some in the millions. No one invested that much by paying their premiums so it's one hell of a payback.

Libs didn't get that insurance was originally intended to pay the huge unexpected bills from an accident or major illness. They think they should pay for every aspirin tablet.

They tied health insurance to employers and wouldn't allow competition across state lines. It meant little choice for individuals. It meant higher costs because of what companies had to cover. Big Pharms took advantage of those will insurance. When insurance is paying, the bills are higher than they are for a person with no insurance or one with government sponsored insurance. Hospital and doctors are only paid a portion of the bill with Tricare, Medicare or Medicaid and they are expected to eat the rest. They pass the cost on to those with private insurance. Many doctors have been caught padding the bills with Medicare, which they likely did to get more of what was actually due. The real profit is in drugs, medical supplies and equipment. Big Pharms win no matter what. Obamacare favored Big Pharms.

Socialized medicine means waiting lists. Just because you are deemed to be entitled to insurance and healthcare doesn't me will actually get care. They are forced to cap expenses. That means that each month, they put people on a waiting list for next month after the cap is reached. The list grows longer each month.

Leaders of socialist countries come here to the U.S. for care. That tells you all you need to know.

Somebody has to be on the waiting lists. What? You think if everybody wanted their opertion NOW, that even with insurance there would be enough doctors to carry out said operations? Not on you nellie. It has nothing to do with waiting lists. It has to do with elites who can afford the best health care. Kinda funny when the right is always whinging about elites - hollywood elites, musician elites - or whatever. The true elites are Trumpis and his cronies. You think they ever 'want' for health cover...please get on your knees and blow him already...

What socialist leaders? what is your definition? somebody from Cuba or Somalia? no, they don't come to the US. They're not allowed in you dufus...

You don't seem to understand how economics works.

If you run an ice cream stand, do you instantly have enough ice cream for everyone single person in the entire city that wants ice cream? Of course not.

Yet, today virtually anyone in the country, can get access to as much ice cream as they could possibly want. How did this happen?

Well, it's simply economics of supply and demand. It's really that simple.

See, as more and more people come to your ice cream stand, you end up with more money. As you have more money, you invest in adding more ice cream, more cash registers, more employees, and soon a larger store, and then multiple stores, and on and on and on.

Now if you want to see how this plays out in health care, just consider the difference in wait times between getting a CT scan for your pet, verses getting a CT scan for yourself in Canada.

In fact there is a great book about this, called accurately enough "Lucky Dog: How Being a Veterinarian Saved My Life". It's the true story of a Veterinarian who got cancer, and was told she had to wait weeks and months, and possibly a year, before getting treatment.

Unlike average citizens of Canada, she had access to ultrasound machine which was used for horses, and used it on herself, and discovered the tumor. The book goes on to say:

"The dogs I treat for thyroid carcinoma come in for their appointment in the morning, and have chest x-rays, blood work, and an ultrasound of their neck all done on the same day. Depending on the results, we may do a needle biopsy of their neck mass that day as well, and will get the report back from the pathologist later that afternoon." surgery can be scheduled the next morning, the dogs go home the following day, and preliminary results of the cancer are reviewed within 24 hours.
​

Where as, when this Veterinarian went to find out if the lump on her neck was cancer, it was a month and half wait.... during which the tumor grew in size. In her own words:

"the Canadian health care system can take a serious health concern and drag things out for long enough that it becomes a life-threatening disease."​

This is why I always look at survival rates, and why the US always has the best survival rates in the world, because we don't make someone wait months just to find out if they have cancer, let alone do something about it.

But the real question is... why? Why is it that a dog in Canada receives many times better care and services than people, in Canada?

Well back to your ice cream stand. Image if you received a set amount of money. So that no matter how many patients you helped, you got the same amount of money. For a moment let's ignore your personal incentives, namely that since you don't get paid to work harder, that you are not likely to work hard.

Even if you wanted to provide the best products and services to everyone... you don't have any more money to do that. The amount of money you get doesn't change. So how do you afford to order more ice cream? How do you afford to hire more staff? How do you buy more cash registers? How do you afford to build, or buy, a bigger store? How do you afford to open a new store?

Of course, you can't. At the Veterinarian's office, as more customers come, they can higher more people, because those customers pay money, and thus they have money to hire more staff. They have the money to pay for more scanners and machines.

But the state run hospitals in Canada do not get more money because more patients showed up. So the hospital doesn't have more money to hire more staff. They don't have more money to buy more scanners and machines. They don't have more money for more hospital beds. When they run out of beds... they just don't have anymore beds.

I read where a Canadian with a burst appendix, was rushed to three different Canadian hospitals, only to be told they were full and refused to take him, even though it was a life threatening condition. He ended up being sent south, and after a 3 hour ride, ended up in the US.

Lucky to be alive, thanks to US care.

So back to your question, this is why in a real capital based system, you end up with better, faster, and higher quality care, being delivered to the most people.

 

[Andylusion]

If you want the best available for the most people, you need to have a for profit business, non profit is not going to work.

Oh yeah it does. Very well in fact. I've bolded the interesting parts. And yes, this really is a HEALTH INSURANCE company. God forbid anybody try starting this in the US....blasphemy!

Southern Cross first opened for business in 1961, introducing health insurance to New Zealanders and laying the foundations for one of New Zealand’s most enduring, best known and trusted brands. Southern Cross was established because its founders strongly believed New Zealanders should have on-going access to private healthcare options.

Southern Cross is a group of businesses that share an interest in your health. Our range of products and services, combined with our not-for-profit focus, size and experience, means Southern Cross plays a unique and important role in the New Zealand health sector.

Southern Cross Hospitals are the largest network of private surgical hospitals in the country, last year providing treatment to 75,000 patients at its 18 wholly owned or joint venture medical facilities.

Group Structure
The Southern Cross Healthcare Group is made up of various legal entities, united by a common brand, a not-for-profit philosophy and the goal of achieving better value healthcare for New Zealanders.

The legal name of the Southern Cross Health Society is Southern Cross Medical Care Society (a not-for-profit Friendly Society constituted under the Friendly Societies and Credit Unions Act 1982). The other Southern Cross entities are the Southern Cross Health Trust (a charitable trust registered as a charitable entity under the Charities Act 2005) and its subsidiaries.

Anyone can say "our not-for-profit focus", and "a not-for-profit Friendly Society".

You know what that is? Advertising. Public relations. And it worked, because you are here right now repeating it to us, like that means something.

What exactly do you think those marketing buzz words mean in day to day operations? The CEO doesn't earn millions? Have you seen the private jet and limo he was riding in? I have. You think he earns a middle class income riding around in those things?

Or do you think that the company doesn't earn a massive profit margin? Because I have the 2016 annual report from Southern Cross NZ, and it says they earned a 15% profit margin, with revenue of $871 Million dollars, and an "operating surplus" of $122 Million.

That's the only real difference by the way... a for profit company would call it a "profit" of $122. A non-profit company call is an "operating surplus".

By the way, do you know what the profit margin is for the for-profit insurance company Prudential? 5%. Compared to your non-profit companies profit margin of 15%.

Do you think those buzz words mean that Southern Cross NZ doesn't have assets and money in the bank? Because again, according to the 2016 annual report, they have over half billion in assets and raw cash in the bank.

So again, I ask you, in real practical every day reality... what exactly do you think all that marketing BS you posted, really means?

 

[Dr Grump]

Anyone can say "our not-for-profit focus", and "a not-for-profit Friendly Society".

You know what that is? Advertising. Public relations. And it worked, because you are here right now repeating it to us, like that means something.

What exactly do you think those marketing buzz words mean in day to day operations? The CEO doesn't earn millions? Have you seen the private jet and limo he was riding in? I have. You think he earns a middle class income riding around in those things?

Or do you think that the company doesn't earn a massive profit margin? Because I have the 2016 annual report from Southern Cross NZ, and it says they earned a 15% profit margin, with revenue of $871 Million dollars, and an "operating surplus" of $122 Million.

That's the only real difference by the way... a for profit company would call it a "profit" of $122. A non-profit company call is an "operating surplus".

By the way, do you know what the profit margin is for the for-profit insurance company Prudential? 5%. Compared to your non-profit companies profit margin of 15%.

Do you think those buzz words mean that Southern Cross NZ doesn't have assets and money in the bank? Because again, according to the 2016 annual report, they have over half billion in assets and raw cash in the bank.

So again, I ask you, in real practical every day reality... what exactly do you think all that marketing BS you posted, really means?

Of course they have assets. The company owns their hospitals. And who owns the company? The policy holders. That's who. When you sign up for Southern Cross you become a member and shareholder. I'm not saying the people who work there don't earn good money. They do. They earn very good money. However, their focus is on health, not making money. Health insurance companies in the US only give a fuck about money. That is it. Their bottom line. A lot of doctors only care about that too...as for the 'profit' do you know who gets it? I do. Who do think gets that profit without looking it up on Google or their website or annual report?

 

[Doc1]

It works, but only in a very rudimentary fashion. It fits in with the Left's M.O. They think being "fair" is making sure everyone get's the same shitty care....unless of course you are in Congress, then they exempt themselves. Repubs too.

 

[SavannahMann]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Um. You do know that the first example of socialized healthcare was in the 1880's in Germany right?

 

[Political Junky]

If you want the best available for the most people, you need to have a for profit business, non profit is not going to work.

Oh yeah it does. Very well in fact. I've bolded the interesting parts. And yes, this really is a HEALTH INSURANCE company. God forbid anybody try starting this in the US....blasphemy!

Southern Cross first opened for business in 1961, introducing health insurance to New Zealanders and laying the foundations for one of New Zealand’s most enduring, best known and trusted brands. Southern Cross was established because its founders strongly believed New Zealanders should have on-going access to private healthcare options.

Southern Cross is a group of businesses that share an interest in your health. Our range of products and services, combined with our not-for-profit focus, size and experience, means Southern Cross plays a unique and important role in the New Zealand health sector.

Southern Cross Hospitals are the largest network of private surgical hospitals in the country, last year providing treatment to 75,000 patients at its 18 wholly owned or joint venture medical facilities.

Group Structure
The Southern Cross Healthcare Group is made up of various legal entities, united by a common brand, a not-for-profit philosophy and the goal of achieving better value healthcare for New Zealanders.

The legal name of the Southern Cross Health Society is Southern Cross Medical Care Society (a not-for-profit Friendly Society constituted under the Friendly Societies and Credit Unions Act 1982). The other Southern Cross entities are the Southern Cross Health Trust (a charitable trust registered as a charitable entity under the Charities Act 2005) and its subsidiaries.

Anyone can say "our not-for-profit focus", and "a not-for-profit Friendly Society".

You know what that is? Advertising. Public relations. And it worked, because you are here right now repeating it to us, like that means something.

What exactly do you think those marketing buzz words mean in day to day operations? The CEO doesn't earn millions? Have you seen the private jet and limo he was riding in? I have. You think he earns a middle class income riding around in those things?

Or do you think that the company doesn't earn a massive profit margin? Because I have the 2016 annual report from Southern Cross NZ, and it says they earned a 15% profit margin, with revenue of $871 Million dollars, and an "operating surplus" of $122 Million.

That's the only real difference by the way... a for profit company would call it a "profit" of $122. A non-profit company call is an "operating surplus".

By the way, do you know what the profit margin is for the for-profit insurance company Prudential? 5%. Compared to your non-profit companies profit margin of 15%.

Do you think those buzz words mean that Southern Cross NZ doesn't have assets and money in the bank? Because again, according to the 2016 annual report, they have over half billion in assets and raw cash in the bank.

So again, I ask you, in real practical every day reality... what exactly do you think all that marketing BS you posted, really means?

The French, with the best healthcare in the world, have a cost at half of what we do.

 

[Andylusion]

Anyone can say "our not-for-profit focus", and "a not-for-profit Friendly Society".

You know what that is? Advertising. Public relations. And it worked, because you are here right now repeating it to us, like that means something.

What exactly do you think those marketing buzz words mean in day to day operations? The CEO doesn't earn millions? Have you seen the private jet and limo he was riding in? I have. You think he earns a middle class income riding around in those things?

Or do you think that the company doesn't earn a massive profit margin? Because I have the 2016 annual report from Southern Cross NZ, and it says they earned a 15% profit margin, with revenue of $871 Million dollars, and an "operating surplus" of $122 Million.

That's the only real difference by the way... a for profit company would call it a "profit" of $122. A non-profit company call is an "operating surplus".

By the way, do you know what the profit margin is for the for-profit insurance company Prudential? 5%. Compared to your non-profit companies profit margin of 15%.

Do you think those buzz words mean that Southern Cross NZ doesn't have assets and money in the bank? Because again, according to the 2016 annual report, they have over half billion in assets and raw cash in the bank.

So again, I ask you, in real practical every day reality... what exactly do you think all that marketing BS you posted, really means?

Of course they have assets. The company owns their hospitals. And who owns the company? The policy holders. That's who. When you sign up for Southern Cross you become a member and shareholder. I'm not saying the people who work there don't earn good money. They do. They earn very good money. However, their focus is on health, not making money. Health insurance companies in the US only give a fuck about money. That is it. Their bottom line. A lot of doctors only care about that too...as for the 'profit' do you know who gets it? I do. Who do think gets that profit without looking it up on Google or their website or annual report?

No no, not hospitals. The assets listed were specifically bonds, stocks, and hard currencies, as well as loans (loans the company made that need repaid). Not hospitals. This is an insurance company. They may have subsidiaries that have hospital ownership, but these are investments, just like any for-profit company would have, like GM, or Walmart.

Again, your claim that insurance companies in the US only care about making money, and yet the profit margins of your non-profit company are literally double that of several for-profit companies.

That non-profit company is make more money off you, than my insurance company is making off me. That's fact, not opinion.

As for who gets the profits.... I'm fascinated.... Do you really think the members get the money? Really?

Do tell, which members, or if any member, received a check from Southern Cross, that wasn't a refund of over payment. I'd love to see your evidence.

I actually know what they did with the profits, because I have the annual report right here. Don't need to google anything. Would you like to know?

They bought bonds. They bought stock. They paid for expansion of the company, (new branch, new employees, upgrades to the insurance company HQ building). And they paid for an increase in director pay. They paid for advertising.

In short, the profits went to all the exact same things that any for-profit company pays for. Literally, all the same things. Exactly the same. No difference whatsoever.

 

[Andylusion]

If you want the best available for the most people, you need to have a for profit business, non profit is not going to work.

Oh yeah it does. Very well in fact. I've bolded the interesting parts. And yes, this really is a HEALTH INSURANCE company. God forbid anybody try starting this in the US....blasphemy!

Southern Cross first opened for business in 1961, introducing health insurance to New Zealanders and laying the foundations for one of New Zealand’s most enduring, best known and trusted brands. Southern Cross was established because its founders strongly believed New Zealanders should have on-going access to private healthcare options.

Southern Cross is a group of businesses that share an interest in your health. Our range of products and services, combined with our not-for-profit focus, size and experience, means Southern Cross plays a unique and important role in the New Zealand health sector.

Southern Cross Hospitals are the largest network of private surgical hospitals in the country, last year providing treatment to 75,000 patients at its 18 wholly owned or joint venture medical facilities.

Group Structure
The Southern Cross Healthcare Group is made up of various legal entities, united by a common brand, a not-for-profit philosophy and the goal of achieving better value healthcare for New Zealanders.

The legal name of the Southern Cross Health Society is Southern Cross Medical Care Society (a not-for-profit Friendly Society constituted under the Friendly Societies and Credit Unions Act 1982). The other Southern Cross entities are the Southern Cross Health Trust (a charitable trust registered as a charitable entity under the Charities Act 2005) and its subsidiaries.

Anyone can say "our not-for-profit focus", and "a not-for-profit Friendly Society".

You know what that is? Advertising. Public relations. And it worked, because you are here right now repeating it to us, like that means something.

What exactly do you think those marketing buzz words mean in day to day operations? The CEO doesn't earn millions? Have you seen the private jet and limo he was riding in? I have. You think he earns a middle class income riding around in those things?

Or do you think that the company doesn't earn a massive profit margin? Because I have the 2016 annual report from Southern Cross NZ, and it says they earned a 15% profit margin, with revenue of $871 Million dollars, and an "operating surplus" of $122 Million.

That's the only real difference by the way... a for profit company would call it a "profit" of $122. A non-profit company call is an "operating surplus".

By the way, do you know what the profit margin is for the for-profit insurance company Prudential? 5%. Compared to your non-profit companies profit margin of 15%.

Do you think those buzz words mean that Southern Cross NZ doesn't have assets and money in the bank? Because again, according to the 2016 annual report, they have over half billion in assets and raw cash in the bank.

So again, I ask you, in real practical every day reality... what exactly do you think all that marketing BS you posted, really means?

The French, with the best healthcare in the world, have a cost at half of what we do.

France doesn't even have the best care in Europe, let alone compared to the US.

Besides that, the French system is in dangerous state.

Domestic banks lose ground in France's AFT debt agency rankings

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GRAPHIC-Two budgets, two speeds: Greece outstrips France

Let me some all this up... France right now hasn't had any real sustained growth in years now. In 2008, they had a GDP of 2.9 Trillion. In 2011, they had a GDP of $2.86 Trillion. In 2014 they had a GDP of $2.83 Trillion. In 2015, they had a GDP of $2.4 Trillion.

The decline of France is clear, and evident to everyone, unless you are an American Socialist.

And one of the biggest factors is the ever increasing taxes.

Are taxes behind rise in exodus of rich French?

France: Exodus of 10,000 millionaires amid rising Muslim tensions

Since 2008, a record number of people have left the country, and many are employers, businesses, and high income people.

The results are unsurprising... an economy slowly imploding.

As a result, France is being forced into a situation where they have to cut spending. Where do you think that will happen?

France's hospital doctors stage strike to highlight crisis

Massive doctor strike over low pay, and government reforms.

This is your idea of the best health care in the world?

 

[Andylusion]

Japan tops the list of longevity rates by country. But there are 29 more ahead of US on that list.

I remember in my misguided youth thinking how great it would be to be 95 in a wheel chair oblivious to the world around me because I beat the longevity rates.

According to my cursory research, elderly Japanese are still vibrant and active compared to elderly Americans.

My father is 76, and he can run circles around me. He still lifts weights.

What does this have to do with the quality of health care? Do you think the elderly in Japan are only active because some doctor runs to their house every morning and forces them to be active? Come on. Grow up.

what does your anecdote have to do with reality! Am I to accept it just because of your purported "honesty?' Have you not considered that Japanese have access to healthcare without having to worry about financial ruin if they get sick? having that free access means the elderly are more likely to get regular checkups and preventative care. That is the link that you have been avoiding!

So now your are claiming that even wtih Medicare, a socialized gov-care system that applies to all the elderly in the US today, that even with that, Medicare sucks so bad, that Japanese elderly have it better?

Isn't the argument from all the left-wingers since Bernie said it, to have Medicare for all, and now your are telling me that even with Medicare and Medicaid for that matter, that they are not using any health care because they are worried about financial ruin with Medicare and Medicaid?

Can you people ever keep a consistent argument that doesn't flip flop every time you are presented with new evidence?

MEDICARE is only available to those who are eligible to draw social security and then it only covers 80 % of most procedures. The patient is liable for the rest.Further, some hospitals and doctors started refusing to accept MEDICARE because they could not overcharge the patient on that platform. Further, if I remember correctly, time limits on hospital admittances. Medicare will only pay for about 20 days. I will have to double check that but off the top of my head I remember that happening to my mother. My point is that MEDICARE, is not so all encompassing and wonderful as you may think. But I would think that in a totally socialized medical environment, the attention to a patients health isn't rushed by financial worries or profit margins.

No, that's my point. I never said Medicare is so wonderful. Everything you said, is exactly my point.

Here you have a socialized system, and even after all the limitations you just mentioned.... it's still going broke. It's funded by taxes payers, it's funded by general revenue, it's funded by medicare premiums, it only covers a % of most procedures, it has limits on admittance, it will only pay for 20 days or whatever....

Everything you mentioned.... and yet..... IT IS STILL GOING BROKE.

This is socialism. This is how it works. This is what happens. No matter what system you put in place... eventually you run out of other people's money.

 

[Rustic]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Um. You do know that the first example of socialized healthcare was in the 1880's in Germany right?

Socialized medicine makes life an living hell...

 

[Dr Grump]

Anyone can say "our not-for-profit focus", and "a not-for-profit Friendly Society".

You know what that is? Advertising. Public relations. And it worked, because you are here right now repeating it to us, like that means something.

What exactly do you think those marketing buzz words mean in day to day operations? The CEO doesn't earn millions? Have you seen the private jet and limo he was riding in? I have. You think he earns a middle class income riding around in those things?

Or do you think that the company doesn't earn a massive profit margin? Because I have the 2016 annual report from Southern Cross NZ, and it says they earned a 15% profit margin, with revenue of $871 Million dollars, and an "operating surplus" of $122 Million.

That's the only real difference by the way... a for profit company would call it a "profit" of $122. A non-profit company call is an "operating surplus".

By the way, do you know what the profit margin is for the for-profit insurance company Prudential? 5%. Compared to your non-profit companies profit margin of 15%.

Do you think those buzz words mean that Southern Cross NZ doesn't have assets and money in the bank? Because again, according to the 2016 annual report, they have over half billion in assets and raw cash in the bank.

So again, I ask you, in real practical every day reality... what exactly do you think all that marketing BS you posted, really means?

Of course they have assets. The company owns their hospitals. And who owns the company? The policy holders. That's who. When you sign up for Southern Cross you become a member and shareholder. I'm not saying the people who work there don't earn good money. They do. They earn very good money. However, their focus is on health, not making money. Health insurance companies in the US only give a fuck about money. That is it. Their bottom line. A lot of doctors only care about that too...as for the 'profit' do you know who gets it? I do. Who do think gets that profit without looking it up on Google or their website or annual report?

No no, not hospitals. The assets listed were specifically bonds, stocks, and hard currencies, as well as loans (loans the company made that need repaid). Not hospitals. This is an insurance company. They may have subsidiaries that have hospital ownership, but these are investments, just like any for-profit company would have, like GM, or Walmart.

Again, your claim that insurance companies in the US only care about making money, and yet the profit margins of your non-profit company are literally double that of several for-profit companies.

That non-profit company is make more money off you, than my insurance company is making off me. That's fact, not opinion.

As for who gets the profits.... I'm fascinated.... Do you really think the members get the money? Really?

Do tell, which members, or if any member, received a check from Southern Cross, that wasn't a refund of over payment. I'd love to see your evidence.

I actually know what they did with the profits, because I have the annual report right here. Don't need to google anything. Would you like to know?

They bought bonds. They bought stock. They paid for expansion of the company, (new branch, new employees, upgrades to the insurance company HQ building). And they paid for an increase in director pay. They paid for advertising.

In short, the profits went to all the exact same things that any for-profit company pays for. Literally, all the same things. Exactly the same. No difference whatsoever.

And did they hand out profits to shareholders? All the money goes back into reinvesting into the company. There are no shares paid out. None. And THAT is the difference. Are you saying that all the health insurance companies in the US aren't in the profit game? Don't have shareholders they have to answer to? have to pay out dividends.

 

[Andylusion]

Anyone can say "our not-for-profit focus", and "a not-for-profit Friendly Society".

You know what that is? Advertising. Public relations. And it worked, because you are here right now repeating it to us, like that means something.

What exactly do you think those marketing buzz words mean in day to day operations? The CEO doesn't earn millions? Have you seen the private jet and limo he was riding in? I have. You think he earns a middle class income riding around in those things?

Or do you think that the company doesn't earn a massive profit margin? Because I have the 2016 annual report from Southern Cross NZ, and it says they earned a 15% profit margin, with revenue of $871 Million dollars, and an "operating surplus" of $122 Million.

That's the only real difference by the way... a for profit company would call it a "profit" of $122. A non-profit company call is an "operating surplus".

By the way, do you know what the profit margin is for the for-profit insurance company Prudential? 5%. Compared to your non-profit companies profit margin of 15%.

Do you think those buzz words mean that Southern Cross NZ doesn't have assets and money in the bank? Because again, according to the 2016 annual report, they have over half billion in assets and raw cash in the bank.

So again, I ask you, in real practical every day reality... what exactly do you think all that marketing BS you posted, really means?

Of course they have assets. The company owns their hospitals. And who owns the company? The policy holders. That's who. When you sign up for Southern Cross you become a member and shareholder. I'm not saying the people who work there don't earn good money. They do. They earn very good money. However, their focus is on health, not making money. Health insurance companies in the US only give a fuck about money. That is it. Their bottom line. A lot of doctors only care about that too...as for the 'profit' do you know who gets it? I do. Who do think gets that profit without looking it up on Google or their website or annual report?

No no, not hospitals. The assets listed were specifically bonds, stocks, and hard currencies, as well as loans (loans the company made that need repaid). Not hospitals. This is an insurance company. They may have subsidiaries that have hospital ownership, but these are investments, just like any for-profit company would have, like GM, or Walmart.

Again, your claim that insurance companies in the US only care about making money, and yet the profit margins of your non-profit company are literally double that of several for-profit companies.

That non-profit company is make more money off you, than my insurance company is making off me. That's fact, not opinion.

As for who gets the profits.... I'm fascinated.... Do you really think the members get the money? Really?

Do tell, which members, or if any member, received a check from Southern Cross, that wasn't a refund of over payment. I'd love to see your evidence.

I actually know what they did with the profits, because I have the annual report right here. Don't need to google anything. Would you like to know?

They bought bonds. They bought stock. They paid for expansion of the company, (new branch, new employees, upgrades to the insurance company HQ building). And they paid for an increase in director pay. They paid for advertising.

In short, the profits went to all the exact same things that any for-profit company pays for. Literally, all the same things. Exactly the same. No difference whatsoever.

And did they hand out profits to shareholders? All the money goes back into reinvesting into the company. There are no shares paid out. None. And THAT is the difference. Are you saying that all the health insurance companies in the US aren't in the profit game? Don't have shareholders they have to answer to? have to pay out dividends.

Some of the biggest names in health insurance, are non-profit.

Kaiser
Blue Cross
Medical Mutual
Premera Blue Cross
State Farm Insurance
Kaleida Health
EmblemHealth

Just for kicks, I punched in my information into several of these non-profit insurance companies, and sure enough they were more expensive than my for-profit policy.

No, I am not saying that insurance companies in the US are not in the profit game. They are. What I am telling you is, all insurance companies are in the profit game, including the insurance company you listed.

All companies period.... are in the profit game. All of them. They may play games, and use slick advertising, and make grand statements, and get non-profit 'status', but all of them... every single last one of them... is in it for profit.

The only ones that are not in it for profit, are the companies that no longer exist. The Obama administration tried this, if you didn't know. They created as part of Obama-care, non-profit Co-Ops. These truly 'not for profit' co-op insurance companies were the only companies that truly did not have a profit motivation at all. And guess what happened....

Another ObamaCare co-op folds, leaving only 6 remaining

After Obama Care past, 23 co-op insurance companies opened across the country, that had absolutely no profit motive whatsoever. Today, only 6 remain. 17 of them closed, a complete failure. Keep in mind, that tax payer funded "loans", none of which will be paid back.... funded these government created co-ops, at a cost of over $100 Million per.

I don't know why this is difficult for you to grasp. I'm not arguing that US insurance companies are not profit minded. I'm arguing that ALL INSURANCE COMPANIES THE WORLD OVER....... are Profit minded. All of them.

That insurance company you pointed to, with all it's non-profit marketing jargon..... All those bold claims of being non-profit minded.... I'm telling you, that they are profit motivated. What do you think that 15% profit margin is all about? PROFIT.

And lastly about the dividends and crap. You people get hung up on that all the time. I don't get it. First off, the amount of money paid in dividends is typically very small relative to the amount of profit the company makes.

Second, you fail to grasp that, the investors are often the ones that allow the company to serve more people.

Where do you think that hospital came from? You think it just magically appeared? You think a bunch of people around the corner, all said "hey let's build a hospital Thursday!", and boom there it is?

Investors create the hospitals. Nearly all of them. If it wasn't for investors, you wouldn't have a hospital to even go to. So when the investors who gave hundreds of billions to hospital care around the world, get back 5% of the profits..... grow up. Stop whining. You wouldn't' have diddly jack if not for investors. You likely wouldn't have a job right now if not for investors.

 

[JQPublic1]

According to my cursory research, elderly Japanese are still vibrant and active compared to elderly Americans.

My father is 76, and he can run circles around me. He still lifts weights.

What does this have to do with the quality of health care? Do you think the elderly in Japan are only active because some doctor runs to their house every morning and forces them to be active? Come on. Grow up.

what does your anecdote have to do with reality! Am I to accept it just because of your purported "honesty?' Have you not considered that Japanese have access to healthcare without having to worry about financial ruin if they get sick? having that free access means the elderly are more likely to get regular checkups and preventative care. That is the link that you have been avoiding!

So now your are claiming that even wtih Medicare, a socialized gov-care system that applies to all the elderly in the US today, that even with that, Medicare sucks so bad, that Japanese elderly have it better?

Isn't the argument from all the left-wingers since Bernie said it, to have Medicare for all, and now your are telling me that even with Medicare and Medicaid for that matter, that they are not using any health care because they are worried about financial ruin with Medicare and Medicaid?

Can you people ever keep a consistent argument that doesn't flip flop every time you are presented with new evidence?

MEDICARE is only available to those who are eligible to draw social security and then it only covers 80 % of most procedures. The patient is liable for the rest.Further, some hospitals and doctors started refusing to accept MEDICARE because they could not overcharge the patient on that platform. Further, if I remember correctly, time limits on hospital admittances. Medicare will only pay for about 20 days. I will have to double check that but off the top of my head I remember that happening to my mother. My point is that MEDICARE, is not so all encompassing and wonderful as you may think. But I would think that in a totally socialized medical environment, the attention to a patients health isn't rushed by financial worries or profit margins.

No, that's my point. I never said Medicare is so wonderful. Everything you said, is exactly my point.

Here you have a socialized system, and even after all the limitations you just mentioned.... it's still going broke. It's funded by taxes payers, it's funded by general revenue, it's funded by medicare premiums, it only covers a % of most procedures, it has limits on admittance, it will only pay for 20 days or whatever....

Everything you mentioned.... and yet..... IT IS STILL GOING BROKE.

This is socialism. This is how it works. This is what happens. No matter what system you put in place... eventually you run out of other people's money.

Where did you get the notion that Social Security is going broke? Did you bother to go to thatSSA website and seek the truth. Apparently you did not or you would have seen this: click the spoier to learn why!

Spoiler: SS is not going broke

As a result of changes to Social Security enacted in 1983, benefits are now expected to be payable in full on a timely basis until 2037, when the trust fund reserves are projected to become exhausted.1 At the point where the reserves are used up, continuing taxes are expected to be enough to pay 76 percent of scheduled benefits. Thus, the Congress will need to make changes to the scheduled benefits and revenue sources for the program in the future. The Social Security Board of Trustees project that changes equivalent to an immediate reduction in benefits of about 13 percent, or an immediate increase in the combined payroll tax rate from 12.4 percent to 14.4 percent, or some combination of these changes, would be sufficient to allow full payment of the scheduled benefits for the next 75 years.

Since the inception of the Social Security program in 1935, scheduled benefits have always been paid on a timely basis through a series of modifications in the law that will continue. Social Security provides a basic level of monthly income to workers and their families after the workers have reached old age, become disabled, or died. The program now provides benefits to over 50 million people and is financed with the payroll taxes from over 150 million workers and their employers. Further modifications of the program are a certainty as the Congress continues to evolve and shape this program, reflecting the desires of each new generation.

This article describes the financial status of the Social Security program, including an analysis of the concepts of solvency and sustainability and the relationship of Social Security to the overall federal unified budget. The future is uncertain in many respects, and based on new information, projections of the financial status of the Social Security program vary somewhat over time. What is virtually certain is that the benefits that almost all Americans become entitled to and most depend on will be continued into the future with modifications deemed appropriate by their elected representatives in the Congress.

 

[Political Junky]

They don't demand you pay them. And they don't owe you a damn thing. How amazing leftist entitlement is.

They set the rates. They are the parasites. How come your premiums are so expensive? Because they have to make a profit. Health is one of the few industries that should not be for profit (I'm talking about the hospital side of things, not the drugs and all the peripheral stuff)

so doctors, nurses, the janitors, food prep people, all of those that develop, build, sell and maintain the equipment should all work for free? hospitals should never upgrade in order to keep up with technology?
interesting

"Not for profit" doesn't mean that health care workers should work for free. It means hospitals should be owned by their communities and not run as commercial businesses.

OK....if all hospitals are run this way, then where does the innovation come from?

Only the Right is motivated strictly by money.

 

[SavannahMann]

It can't work, because the deadbeats will always abuse the system every time…

Um. You do know that the first example of socialized healthcare was in the 1880's in Germany right?

Socialized medicine makes life an living hell...

You must have a hell of a hammer to get that square peg in that round hole.

Top 10 Countries with the Best Health Care in 2016 - The Gazette Review