CDZ The Confederate (Rebel) Flag

[rightwinger]

"Josf, no one is going to read your boringly long and inaccurate false flag posts."

Changing the subject to me personally is against the rules. This is precisely how false flags work. This individual member of this forum voluntarily joins this forum, and in this forum there are voluntary rules that we are duty bound to follow. So long as everyone follows the rules, there are no broken rules, and debate on the subject matter remains clean.

Here is a flag:
The STRIPED FLAG of the EAST INDIA COMPANY and its CONNEXION with the AMERICAN STARS and STRIPES

The East India Company flag, as well as many other flags, such as the UNION flag, or the flag of any confederacy, or any federal, voluntary, union, or any symbol of any kind, or any label, such as Clean Debate Zone, is a sign, a message, a bit of data, a form of communication, and it can be false, or it can be true.

A false flag can be a flag that claims to be a flag representing Liberty, while the actual people waving the flag are the actual people who commonly brake commonly understood rules.

"...your boringly long and inaccurate..."

That is a common false flag type message. The actual fact of the matter is such that in the Clean Debate Zone, where it is against the rules to incite a flame war with personal attacks, the subject matter IS NOT my personal character where I am falsely, deviously, covertly, written up as someone who is boring, and someone who is capable of offering inaccurate information. The subject matter here and now concerns a flag that supposedly represents forced slavery of innocent people by those people waving that flag.

If that is the claim, then which flag is waved by which people, as those people truly, accurately, and with malice aforethought, break common, moral, rules?

Example:
http://nationallibertyalliance.org/files/marshal/1 US Marshals and the Constitution.pdf

Quote:___________________________________
As part of the famous Compromise of 1850, Congress passed one
of the most roundly hated and violently opposed laws in
American history. The Fugitive Slave Act required U.S. Marshals
in the north to return escaped slaves to their masters in the
South. Northern abolitionists, who were intent on abolishing the
institution of slavery, turned on the Marshals in a number of
slave rescue cases.

But the Marshals, regardless of their personal feelings, had no
choice. The Constitution itself required the free states to return
fugitive slaves. The Fugitive Slave Law merely implemented that
Constitutional provision. To deny the law, even a hated law,
meant a denial of the Constitution itself. The Marshals enforced
the law.
________________________________________

The Nazi type blind obedience to following any criminal order issued by any criminal no matter how immoral the criminal order might be is directly comparable to the following example of rule of law:

AntiFederalist Papers Paper 15 Freedom Documents

Quote:______________________________
The abuse which has been thrown upon the state of Rhode Island seems to be greatly unmerited. Popular favor is variable, and those who are now despised and insulted may soon change situations with the present idols of the people. Rhode Island has out done even Pennsylvania in the glorious work of freeing the Negroes in this country, without which the patriotism of some states appears ridiculous. The General Assembly of the state of Rhode Island has prevented the further importation of Negroes, and have made a law by which all blacks born in that state after March, 1784, are absolutely and at once free.

They have fully complied with the recommendations of Congress in regard to the late treaty of peace with Great Britain, and have passed an act declaring it to be the law of the land. They have never refused their quota of taxes demanded by Congress, excepting the five per cent impost, which they considered as a dangerous tax, and for which at present there is perhaps no great necessity, as the western territory, of which a part has very lately been sold at a considerable price, may soon produce an immense revenue; and, in the interim, Congress may raise in the old manner the taxes which shall be found necessary for the support of the government.
____________________________________

Those whose claims of absolute authority concerning the facts are often those who have failed to actually acknowledge the lawful process by which facts are found.

Example 1:
RESPUBLICA v. SHAFFER 1 U.S. 236 1788 Justia U.S. Supreme Court Center

Quote:____________________________
It is a matter well known, and well understood, that by the laws of our country, every question which affects a man's life, reputation, or property, must be tried by twelve of his peers; and that their unanimous verdict is, alone, competent to determine the fact in issue.
_________________________________

Example 2:
http://www.thekingcenter.org/sites/default/files/KING FAMILY TRIAL TRANSCRIPT.pdf

Quote:___________________________
Arthur Jackson Haynes, Jr
Page 804
“I have considered in my thirty-five-year career a jury is the best lie detector there is.”
_________________________________

When any of the slaves (black, white, red, yellow, pink) get out of line then one of the false flag wavers, or many of the false flag wavers, assassinate the errant slave.

tl;dr

 

[JWBooth]

Offensive or not?

Why?

The confederate flag (stars and bars) not so much....the rectangular Southern Cross which really came out as a symbol of post-war Jim Crow, very much so.

Most main stream won't differentiate

Yeah, I know....and it shows their ignorance...just like the ignorance of those who fly the Southern Cross and go blah blah blah about their "heritage"....not even knowing what the correct flag is.

The "correct" flag?
The battleflag of the Army of Northern Virginia was created to be that, a battlefield ensign around which troops could identify unit positions. How it got used and abused later is on the abusers.
The flags of the government? Room for discussion of motives there.

 

[Pogo]

To those that think the Emancipation Proclamation freed the slaves, let me ask you this:

If Stephen Harper issued an executive order making homosexuality illegal in the United States, would homosexuality be illegal in the USA?

Were we at the time newly-self-declared to be independent of Canada and in the midst of a war to settle that question? Once that war was settled in Harpers favour, then yes. If Harper lost that war, then no.

 

[Flopper]

Offensive because it represents human slavery.

What if a 20 year old has one in his truck, mailbox etc. but has it because to him, it is just pride of being from the South? To me, it's the intent with which it is displayed. No?

Suppose it was a swastika? Would you assume the 20 year old is just showing pride in being from Germany? Any time you display a symbol such as; a Christian cross, a swastika, or a hammer and sickle you are making a statement of support.

Not a fair comparison. The swastika (Nazi version) did represent a government, like the CF did in its various forms, but it never represented a German culture. Southern culture had already existed as distinct on its own, before the Civil War started. Some of that antebellum culture did involve slavery --- but that isn't the only thing it involved. By contrast, did Nazism -- which is specifically and exclusively a government-- ever represent anything more than unbridled conquest and genocide?

I think it's safe to say that other than military personnel during WWII, nobody has ever displayed a swastika simply to show they're from Germany. That's quite a difference between the two.
.
.

My point is if you display an emblem, you are identifying yourself with what that emblem represents. So if you display the confederate flag you, are identifying yourself with the Confederate States America which was at war with the United States and defended the right to own slaves.

A confederate flag on the back of a truck identifies the owner to most Americans as someone who is anti-black, anti-federal government, or maybe just a dumb ass redneck.

But it doesn't, necessarily --- that is what the viewer infers. It may or may not be partially or wholly accurate. That's why I say the observer can't just unilaterally dictate what's in the mind of the exhibitor. As I said before, my Mississippi mother had some, and for her they meant nothing remotely like that. She wasn't even sure what the Civil War was about. For her it was a memento of "home". And that's it.

My larger point is that, when the observer infers such a sentiment -- or any sentiment, including positive ones -- that observer is enabling the power the exhibitor intended.... and may even be ascribing a motive the exhibitor never had. In other words you have to take the idea of flag fetishism seriously (and I don't) to even get started on either side --- whether displaying it with pride or disparaging it with contempt. Both parties must invest it with emotion, the same way as it takes two to make an argument.

You raise a good point. The inference a viewer makes about the beliefs of those who display a flag may or may not be correct. Some will display the confederate flag, as you say, a memento of home but others will display it as a political statement. However, one should make no mistake about the fact that many millions of Americans consider it the emblem of racism and slavery and will react negatively.

Many people are shocked upon seeing the multitude of Confederate flags when they first arrive in the South. For them, it’s a symbol of slavery, of oppression and systemic racism. But many Southerners see it as a point of local pride and a celebration of their heritage, putting the flag on their bumper stickers and on their lawns.

 

[Ernie S.]

What if a 20 year old has one in his truck, mailbox etc. but has it because to him, it is just pride of being from the South? To me, it's the intent with which it is displayed. No?

Suppose it was a swastika? Would you assume the 20 year old is just showing pride in being from Germany? Any time you display a symbol such as; a Christian cross, a swastika, or a hammer and sickle you are making a statement of support.

Not a fair comparison. The swastika (Nazi version) did represent a government, like the CF did in its various forms, but it never represented a German culture. Southern culture had already existed as distinct on its own, before the Civil War started. Some of that antebellum culture did involve slavery --- but that isn't the only thing it involved. By contrast, did Nazism -- which is specifically and exclusively a government-- ever represent anything more than unbridled conquest and genocide?

I think it's safe to say that other than military personnel during WWII, nobody has ever displayed a swastika simply to show they're from Germany. That's quite a difference between the two.
.
.

My point is if you display an emblem, you are identifying yourself with what that emblem represents. So if you display the confederate flag you, are identifying yourself with the Confederate States America which was at war with the United States and defended the right to own slaves.

A confederate flag on the back of a truck identifies the owner to most Americans as someone who is anti-black, anti-federal government, or maybe just a dumb ass redneck.

But it doesn't, necessarily --- that is what the viewer infers. It may or may not be partially or wholly accurate. That's why I say the observer can't just unilaterally dictate what's in the mind of the exhibitor. As I said before, my Mississippi mother had some, and for her they meant nothing remotely like that. She wasn't even sure what the Civil War was about. For her it was a memento of "home". And that's it.

My larger point is that, when the observer infers such a sentiment -- or any sentiment, including positive ones -- that observer is enabling the power the exhibitor intended.... and may even be ascribing a motive the exhibitor never had. In other words you have to take the idea of flag fetishism seriously (and I don't) to even get started on either side --- whether displaying it with pride or disparaging it with contempt. Both parties must invest it with emotion, the same way as it takes two to make an argument.

You raise a good point. The inference a viewer makes about the beliefs of those who display a flag may or may not be correct. Some will display the confederate flag, as you say, a memento of home but others will display it as a political statement. However, one should make no mistake about the fact that many millions of Americans consider it the emblem of racism and slavery and will react negatively.

Many people are shocked upon seeing the multitude of Confederate flags when they first arrive in the South. For them, it’s a symbol of slavery, of oppression and systemic racism. But many Southerners see it as a point of local pride and a celebration of their heritage, putting the flag on their bumper stickers and on their lawns.

 

[Ernie S.]

I have a Battle Flag.
I display it with pride on Robert E. Lee Day, at Talladega when I go up for the races.
I feel a great affinity with my adopted home, but to call me a racist would be ludicrous.
Any questions on that, I refer to my second wife.

 

[Flopper]

That ignorance illustrates the entire non-argument.

Using that (lack of) logic, the American flag, too, represents a heritage of slavery. Cherry pick to push a political agenda. Propaganda.

That's true too. Selective symbolism can represent, on the part on the selector, anything he wants. To a lot of people in a lot of places, the Stars and Stripes also represents conquest and genocide -- like the swastika. Who's to judge?
,
,
,
,
,

Poor analogy. The swastika as a nazi emblem was pretty exclusive when it comes to genocide and fascism.

Bullshit alert!!!!!

FYI, The swastika motif predates the NAZI party by many centuries.

When someone displays a swastika, they are making an unmistakable statement and it's not about ancient India.

Depends on the context. Beware categorical statements.

The Swastika in Japan

I think the context is pretty clear since we are discussing the flag of the Confederate States of America

 

[Coyote]

Thread has been cleaned and reopened. Some of you seem to have forgotten you were in the CDZ.

No insults. No flaming. Consider it an exercise in civil discussion.

 

[hazlnut]

Offensive or not?

Why?

Just like the Nazi flag -- it represents a very ugly and grotesque chapter in history.

Not to mention they were traders.

 

[JakeStarkey]

. . . as well as traitors.

 

[Ernie S.]

Offensive or not?

Why?

Just like the Nazi flag -- it represents a very ugly and grotesque chapter in history.

Not to mention they were traders.

What does your avatar represent? Don't you think some might be offended?

I'll fly my flag then...

 

[JakeStarkey]

Offensive or not?

Why?

Just like the Nazi flag -- it represents a very ugly and grotesque chapter in history.

Not to mention they were traders.

What does your avatar represent? Don't you think some might be offended?

I'll fly my flag then...

Fallacy of false comparison.

 

[Katzndogz]

What if a 20 year old has one in his truck, mailbox etc. but has it because to him, it is just pride of being from the South? To me, it's the intent with which it is displayed. No?

Suppose it was a swastika? Would you assume the 20 year old is just showing pride in being from Germany? Any time you display a symbol such as; a Christian cross, a swastika, or a hammer and sickle you are making a statement of support.

Not a fair comparison. The swastika (Nazi version) did represent a government, like the CF did in its various forms, but it never represented a German culture. Southern culture had already existed as distinct on its own, before the Civil War started. Some of that antebellum culture did involve slavery --- but that isn't the only thing it involved. By contrast, did Nazism -- which is specifically and exclusively a government-- ever represent anything more than unbridled conquest and genocide?

I think it's safe to say that other than military personnel during WWII, nobody has ever displayed a swastika simply to show they're from Germany. That's quite a difference between the two.
.
.

My point is if you display an emblem, you are identifying yourself with what that emblem represents. So if you display the confederate flag you, are identifying yourself with the Confederate States America which was at war with the United States and defended the right to own slaves.

A confederate flag on the back of a truck identifies the owner to most Americans as someone who is anti-black, anti-federal government, or maybe just a dumb ass redneck.

But it doesn't, necessarily --- that is what the viewer infers. It may or may not be partially or wholly accurate. That's why I say the observer can't just unilaterally dictate what's in the mind of the exhibitor. As I said before, my Mississippi mother had some, and for her they meant nothing remotely like that. She wasn't even sure what the Civil War was about. For her it was a memento of "home". And that's it.

My larger point is that, when the observer infers such a sentiment -- or any sentiment, including positive ones -- that observer is enabling the power the exhibitor intended.... and may even be ascribing a motive the exhibitor never had. In other words you have to take the idea of flag fetishism seriously (and I don't) to even get started on either side --- whether displaying it with pride or disparaging it with contempt. Both parties must invest it with emotion, the same way as it takes two to make an argument.

You raise a good point. The inference a viewer makes about the beliefs of those who display a flag may or may not be correct. Some will display the confederate flag, as you say, a memento of home but others will display it as a political statement. However, one should make no mistake about the fact that many millions of Americans consider it the emblem of racism and slavery and will react negatively.

Many people are shocked upon seeing the multitude of Confederate flags when they first arrive in the South. For them, it’s a symbol of slavery, of oppression and systemic racism. But many Southerners see it as a point of local pride and a celebration of their heritage, putting the flag on their bumper stickers and on their lawns.

My second husband had that flag tattooed on his arm. He wore it proudly every day of his life.

You can't make it go away. You just can't. So choke it down or stew in it.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Make it go away? No. Make fun of it. Yes.

 

[JoeMoma]

Offensive or not?

Why?

Just like the Nazi flag -- it represents a very ugly and grotesque chapter in history.

Not to mention they were traders.

What does your avatar represent? Don't you think some might be offended?

I'll fly my flag then...

The star and crescent moon has become a symbol of Islamic nations.

Crescent Moon Symbol - Country Flags Featuring the Crescent Moon Symbol

 

[Flopper]

My second husband had that flag tattooed on his arm. He wore it proudly every day of his life.

You can't make it go away. You just can't. So choke it down or stew in it.

Oh, I don't want the flag to go away, just those that celebrate it as a symbol of slavery and racial discrimination. We need such symbols to remind us of man's inhumanity and hatred.

 

[Bonzi]

I'm pretty sure the flag was not designed as a symbol of "pro slavery" - I think something other than stars and bars would be on the flag to represent that.....

 

[JWBooth]

My second husband had that flag tattooed on his arm. He wore it proudly every day of his life.

You can't make it go away. You just can't. So choke it down or stew in it.

Oh, I don't want the flag to go away, just those that celebrate it as a symbol of slavery and racial discrimination. We need such symbols to remind us of man's inhumanity and hatred.

Lets condemn these clowns and their flag of hate.

 

[Bonzi]

Hate and prejudice will always be here.

A piece of cloth with designs on it means nothing

 

[JWBooth]