CDZ The Confederate (Rebel) Flag

[Moonglow]

Offensive or not?

Why?

Not..It's not like the war is still on, get over it people...the rest of the world has...

 

[JWBooth]

Their use of this symbol of hatred goes back a long way it seems.

 

[Bonzi]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride. It varies, I just think that if we try to remove every thing in life that is offensive to others, we are wasting time and money and spinning our wheels.

Just as debate of Liberal and Conservative agendas is a waste of time (but good mental exercise and a way to learn if you are open minded) - but wasteful in that resolution won't be found.

Also, same with an Athiest debating any issue with a Christian because the belief system and mind set is so different, there is no way to come to any common ground.

 

[hazlnut]

Offensive or not?

Why?

Just like the Nazi flag -- it represents a very ugly and grotesque chapter in history.

Not to mention they were traders.

What does your avatar represent? Don't you think some might be offended?

I'll fly my flag then...

To the extent any terrorists or extremist used the star and crescent is unfortunate. It's like the KKK using the cross or the modern homophobe calling himself "Christian" claiming his beliefs are deeply held and religious in nature.

But comparing the star and crescent to the Confederate flag is a completely false and ignorant comparison.

And the gay pride rainbow - would only be offensive to homophobes--the modern-day bigots. Like vampires hating sunlight. Who cares?

I hope that clarifies things for you.

 

[hazlnut]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride.

Pride in what?

Slavery
Treason
Reconstruction atrocities and lynchings
Jim Crow
Segregation

Do Germans use the Nazi flag for German pride?

 

[Bonzi]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride.

Pride in what?

Slavery
Treason
Reconstruction atrocities and lynchings
Jim Crow
Segregation

Do Germans use the Nazi flag for German pride?

In the modern day, it's just a symbol for being proud of living in the South. The South (now, in modern times) actually is persecuted for being "backward" and being "redneckish" - it's just a representation for being proud to live here in spite of the current intolerance toward many Southerners with more old fashioned and traditional ways. Not those things you listed people don't think about that when they purchase a Rebel Flag.

 

[Ernie S.]

There are more hateful people living under the star and crescent than ever lived under the Stars and Bars.

 

[hazlnut]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride.

Pride in what?

Slavery
Treason
Reconstruction atrocities and lynchings
Jim Crow
Segregation

Do Germans use the Nazi flag for German pride?

In the modern day, it's just a symbol for being proud of living in the South. The South (now, in modern times) actually is persecuted for being "backward" and being "redneckish" - it's just a representation for being proud to live here in spite of the current intolerance toward many Southerners with more old fashioned and traditional ways. Not those things you listed people don't think about that when they purchase a Rebel Flag.

I think it used to a symbol of pride for living in the south, lifestyle, cooking, various culture and traditions - however in recent years the real direct historical associations of the flag with so many atrocities and negative aspects of southern history has led many southerners to move on and find a new way to be proud and celebrate the American South. But some remain stubborn.

As the South becomes more diverse and enlightened about their own history and where many traditions and sayings actually come from (their dialect is a product of black slave children playing with the children of their white masters) the South must put the Confederate flag in proper historical perspective and stop stubbornly clinging to the notion of harmless "southern pride".

There is really nothing directly associated with that flag, historically speaking, that one should be proud of. Things such as cooking and any non-slave economic or industrial advances would only use the southern flag in the loosest of associations--perhaps to attract the more backwards thinking crowd.

 

[Bonzi]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride.

Pride in what?

Slavery
Treason
Reconstruction atrocities and lynchings
Jim Crow
Segregation

Do Germans use the Nazi flag for German pride?

In the modern day, it's just a symbol for being proud of living in the South. The South (now, in modern times) actually is persecuted for being "backward" and being "redneckish" - it's just a representation for being proud to live here in spite of the current intolerance toward many Southerners with more old fashioned and traditional ways. Not those things you listed people don't think about that when they purchase a Rebel Flag.

I think it used to a symbol of pride for living in the south, lifestyle, cooking, various culture and traditions - however in recent years the real direct historical associations of the flag with so many atrocities and negative aspects of southern history has led many southerners to move on and find a new way to be proud and celebrate the American South. But some remain stubborn.

As the South becomes more diverse and enlightened about their own history and where many traditions and sayings actually come from (their dialect is a product of black slave children playing with the children of their white masters) the South must put the Confederate flag in proper historical perspective and stop stubbornly clinging to the notion of harmless "southern pride".

There is really nothing directly associated with that flag, historically speaking, that one should be proud of. Things such as cooking and any non-slave economic or industrial advances would only use the southern flag in the loosest of associations--perhaps to attract the more backwards thinking crowd.

... then we're left with the issue of the right to display it ...

 

[RKMBrown]

Offensive or not?

Why?

Not. Because it's just a flag of the confederate states. Calling the flag of the confederate states offensive is like calling the union jack offensive. It's non-sensical. The stars and stripes flew during the time of slavery... duh! People are trying to imply some hidden purpose of the confederate flag as meaning pro-slavery... No, being a person living in a confederate states does not equate to being a person who is pro-slavery. If you want a pro slavery flag make one.

 

[hazlnut]

There are more hateful people living under the star and crescent than ever lived under the Stars and Bars.

I think it's important in CDZ to backup any emphatic statements with proof.

And since you're talking about a symbol that is used on many national flags, you may be correct in terms of numbers -- there are more muslim extremists in the entire world than bigots still living in the Southern United States. That shows we've made some progress since the 1960's.

However if you were make an accurate comparison with a country (a legitimate Muslim nation-state) that matches the current souther states population, you would never be able to back up your statement as the extremist percentage is just too low.

 

[RKMBrown]

There are more hateful people living under the star and crescent than ever lived under the Stars and Bars.

So you are saying a sub group of Americans is larger than all Americans. Hmm.... how does that work?

 

[hazlnut]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride.

Pride in what?

Slavery
Treason
Reconstruction atrocities and lynchings
Jim Crow
Segregation

Do Germans use the Nazi flag for German pride?

In the modern day, it's just a symbol for being proud of living in the South. The South (now, in modern times) actually is persecuted for being "backward" and being "redneckish" - it's just a representation for being proud to live here in spite of the current intolerance toward many Southerners with more old fashioned and traditional ways. Not those things you listed people don't think about that when they purchase a Rebel Flag.

I think it used to a symbol of pride for living in the south, lifestyle, cooking, various culture and traditions - however in recent years the real direct historical associations of the flag with so many atrocities and negative aspects of southern history has led many southerners to move on and find a new way to be proud and celebrate the American South. But some remain stubborn.

As the South becomes more diverse and enlightened about their own history and where many traditions and sayings actually come from (their dialect is a product of black slave children playing with the children of their white masters) the South must put the Confederate flag in proper historical perspective and stop stubbornly clinging to the notion of harmless "southern pride".

There is really nothing directly associated with that flag, historically speaking, that one should be proud of. Things such as cooking and any non-slave economic or industrial advances would only use the southern flag in the loosest of associations--perhaps to attract the more backwards thinking crowd.

... then we're left with the issue of the right to display it ...

Freedom of expression. Sure. Fine. We'd hope that Southern state legislators would have grown up over that past 130 years and the state Governments would leave the Confederate flags in the museums.

Private individuals can do what they want.

But there is no protection from the backlash - for example, a boycotting of a business. A public shaming in an editorial. A legal demonstration etc.

Boycotting or canceling of events in a state or city that hasn't removed he flag from public buildings-- all ways others can freely express themselves about the use of the flag and "southern pride".

 

[Ernie S.]

There are more hateful people living under the star and crescent than ever lived under the Stars and Bars.

I think it's important in CDZ to backup any emphatic statements with proof.

And since you're talking about a symbol that is used on many national flags, you may be correct in terms of numbers -- there are more muslim extremists in the entire world than bigots still living in the Southern United States. That shows we've made some progress since the 1960's.

However if you were make an accurate comparison with a country (a legitimate Muslim nation-state) that matches the current souther states population, you would never be able to back up your statement as the extremist percentage is just too low.

As for the rest of your post, I live in the South, sir. There are more racists in Connecticut where I grew up, than in Alabama.

 

[hazlnut]

Offensive or not?

Why?

Not. Because it's just a flag of the confederate states. Calling the flag of the confederate states offensive is like calling the union jack offensive. It's non-sensical. The stars and stripes flew during the time of slavery... duh! People are trying to imply some hidden purpose of the confederate flag as meaning pro-slavery... No, being a person living in a confederate states does not equate to being a person who is pro-slavery. If you want a pro slavery flag make one.

Confederate states were traitors fighting for the right to continue their slave economy.

A flag is a symbol - and everything that the Confederate flag directly symbolizes in an historical context is negative.

Slavery
Jim Crow
Segregation
KKK

No one associates the Underground Railroad or MLK's freedom march or any major positive thing or event in the south with the Confederate flag.

 

[hazlnut]

There are more hateful people living under the star and crescent than ever lived under the Stars and Bars.

I think it's important in CDZ to backup any emphatic statements with proof.

And since you're talking about a symbol that is used on many national flags, you may be correct in terms of numbers -- there are more muslim extremists in the entire world than bigots still living in the Southern United States. That shows we've made some progress since the 1960's.

However if you were make an accurate comparison with a country (a legitimate Muslim nation-state) that matches the current souther states population, you would never be able to back up your statement as the extremist percentage is just too low.

As for the rest of your post, I live in the South, sir. There are more racists in Connecticut where I grew up, than in Alabama.

Empirical proof please - numbers showing the % of people with racist beliefs in the entire south as compared to % radical muslim extremists in a middle-eastern country with the same population.

As far as Connecticut vs Alabama - go ahead, prove it. Show me numbers. Anecdotal evidence really doesn't fly.

 

[Pogo]

There are more hateful people living under the star and crescent than ever lived under the Stars and Bars.

There may be even more living under ignorance. The star and crescent isn't a war or hate symbol, isn't really even an Islam symbol. It dates back at least 2500 years -- well before either Islam or Christianism -- and represents a lunar calendar and a more matriarchal spirituality. Its icons are representations of various moon and celestial gods including Shamash, Sin, Venus, Ishtar, Hecate and Ahura Mazda, the Zorastrian moon goddess.

It was only in the old Ottoman Empire that it was incorporated into a national flag, and has been associated with Islam for less than a century. That's a whole lot of symbolistic history that's just irrelevant to your cum hoc fallacy.

L-R: Coats of Arms, Zagreb (Croatia); Schleswig (Germany); Ödeshög (Sweden); Sintra (Portugal); Duchess of Buccleuch (Scotland); New Orleans Police Department (Louisiana)

The Rātana Movement, a Maori Christian-derived religious political movement in New Zealand, uses this:

​

--- and the Ottomans btw got it from pre-Roman Byzantium, the Greek city that became Constantinople, then Istanbul -- this coin is 2000 years old:

​

 

[Ernie S.]

Numbers would be impossible to provide, so my life experience would be all I can offer.

Perhaps you can offer proof of our contention?

 

[Flopper]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride. It varies, I just think that if we try to remove every thing in life that is offensive to others, we are wasting time and money and spinning our wheels.

Just as debate of Liberal and Conservative agendas is a waste of time (but good mental exercise and a way to learn if you are open minded) - but wasteful in that resolution won't be found.

Also, same with an Athiest debating any issue with a Christian because the belief system and mind set is so different, there is no way to come to any common ground.

With exception of flying the confederate flag on government buildings, flying the flag of the Confederacy, the Nazi flag, or whatever is and should be a matter of personal choice.

The South is changing and with the growing numbers of blacks, Asians, and Hispanics, displaying the confederate flag will become less and less common. There are a growing number of southerns who do not take pride in the Old South's history of slavery, segregation, and racism.

 

[Pogo]

Some use it for hatred, some just for Southern Pride. It varies, I just think that if we try to remove every thing in life that is offensive to others, we are wasting time and money and spinning our wheels.

Just as debate of Liberal and Conservative agendas is a waste of time (but good mental exercise and a way to learn if you are open minded) - but wasteful in that resolution won't be found.

Also, same with an Athiest debating any issue with a Christian because the belief system and mind set is so different, there is no way to come to any common ground.

With exception of flying the confederate flag on government buildings, flying the flag of the Confederacy, the Nazi flag, or whatever is and should be a matter of personal choice.

The South is changing and with the growing numbers of blacks, Asians, and Hispanics, displaying the confederate flag will become less and less common.

And it already has. It's to the point where a stars-n-bars in the South is unusual enough that it stands out as more of a statement (to whatever symbolism applies) than it did, say, 50-60 years ago when the stars-n-stripes would have been the same degree of unusual while the stars-n-bars was common and expected. I've been traveling between the two countries literally my entire life and I've watched it happen.