The Employee Free Choice Act.....

[elvis]

Oh for pity sake. You get paid about twice or more what you see on your check. That's why you don't have enough money to get by on if you are a blue collar worker.

You don't like the job you've got find another one. If you don't have any skills acquire some. If you expect people to pay you big money to do something that the mentally challenged can be trained to do in fifteen minutes you're kidding yourself.

So for the person who worked at production for 25 years, what happens when his job goes away? 50 year olds with 25 years experience in Assembly are SOOO marketable.

 

[garyd]

Elvis pull you head out. those with sense enough to poor piss out of a boot with directions written on the heal don't stay in assembly for 25 years except in Detroit. Assembly is an entry level position in most companies unless it involves welding or machining in which case you aren't being paid as little as minimum wage unless you are stupid.

 

[michiganFats]

As soon as you take away the secret ballots, the employees who vote no will be harasssed by the union itself, and the ones who vote yes will probably make the companies shit list. This is just a bad idea all around.

 

[manu1959]

i am curious.....why are blue collar workers too stupid to negotiate their own salary and benifits......

why do they turn over their rights and power to an elite group of union bosses that belong to the same clubs as the ceo's....live in the same neighborhoods and drive the same cars.....

it's not about "stupid". it's about POWERLESS. You know what corporate management says to workers who ask for a living wage when there's no union protection? If history taught us anything, they say "go screw yourself. someone else will do the job cheaper".

and people would rather make garbage money under garbage conditions than not have money for food.

A better question is why do blue collar workers vote against their own self-interest and buy into corporatist lies?

really....i know plenty of workers that work for those "evil corporations" and earn more than a living wage and have good benifits and don't pay union dues......and are in control of their own destiny.....

 

[elvis]

Elvis pull you head out. those with sense enough to poor piss out of a boot with directions written on the heal don't stay in assembly for 25 years except in Detroit. Assembly is an entry level position in most companies unless it involves welding or machining in which case you aren't being paid as little as minimum wage unless you are stupid.

It's people like you that will turn Michigan into a welfare state.

 

[manu1959]

Elvis pull you head out. those with sense enough to poor piss out of a boot with directions written on the heal don't stay in assembly for 25 years except in Detroit. Assembly is an entry level position in most companies unless it involves welding or machining in which case you aren't being paid as little as minimum wage unless you are stupid.

It's people like you that will turn Michigan into a welfare state.

given the union control of that state...i would say you are already there.....unfortunantely the unions and the car companies can no longer foot the bill......

 

[garyd]

By the way I'm sixty,. I'm a mchinist. I've got an arthritic spine. According to Union morons and leftists I ought to be homeless in this economy. Instead i've quit three jobs to take a better one in the last two years after being laid off. I'm good at what I do, and there are damn few people who can handle Both CNC including some programing and conventional maching like I can.

 

[elvis]

By the way I'm sixty,. I'm a mchinist. I've got an arthritic spine. According to Union morons and leftists I ought to be homeless in this economy. Instead i've quit three jobs to take a better one in the last two years after being laid off. I'm good at what I do, and there are damn few people who can handle Both CNC including some programing and conventional maching like I can.

That is true. Having both those skills is marketable, at least at this point. I just worry about the future of Michigan and northern Ohio

 

[elvis]

Elvis pull you head out. those with sense enough to poor piss out of a boot with directions written on the heal don't stay in assembly for 25 years except in Detroit. Assembly is an entry level position in most companies unless it involves welding or machining in which case you aren't being paid as little as minimum wage unless you are stupid.

It's people like you that will turn Michigan into a welfare state.

given the union control of that state...i would say you are already there.....unfortunantely the unions and the car companies can no longer foot the bill......

I would think the auto slowdown would affect Califonia, too, No? all the computerized systems in cars these days?

 

[Patriot2009]

What playing field will be leveled ?

Ahhh, the playing field that doesn't have any fucking jobs, sooper ......

Blah! Blah! Blah!

The fact of the matter is that when the unions were at their zenith jobs were not in short supply. By, the Reagan years, they had declined due to a number of factors, not the least of which was leadership apathy and public animosity.

Then, through a series of legislative changes and bureaucratic rule interpretations the unions began a precipitous decline to where we now see the unions comprising less than 10% of the private work force. All that this law will do is allow workers to choose unions without the systematic intimidation and retaliation that employers engage in when they fight a unionization campaign.

If you really believe that if unions are allowed this kind of election regulation jobs will be lost as a direct result, kindly enlighten us with some kind of real evidence. And, I’m not talking about some corporate propaganda piece.

Ok, i'll give you some REAL WORLD evidence, not like some link you wingnuts find on a google search.

I'm an operations manager of a mid size company. The division i oversee has 23 field employees. These guys make a range of $50,000 to $80,000 per year for UNSKILLED labor. They have also have a full benefits package ( health, paid holidays, vacations, 3 paid sick days per year, etc...). A lot of them being the sole bread winner for their families. Let's say one day one of these union organizers fill a few of these guys heads with a lot of B.S. ( and make no mistake, thats what these organizers do). The company doesn't even get to tell their side of the story ( which i bet you didn't even know about this bill ). Then guess what happens ? The union muscles its way in, makes up a bunch of stupid rules (which the union will label as "rights") that doesn't allow us to operate the company efficiently enough to pay these guys the high salary that we pay them without the company losing money. Then one of two things happen:

A) The company goes out of business and all of these people lose their very well paying jobs along with the management, administrative personnel, etc...

or much more likely

B) The company gets rid of its field employees and does the work with sub contractors.


Now what good will this act do again ?

Your post isn’t evidence of anything. It’s your imaginary scenario of what you fear might happen if a union engaged in a campaign to unionize your company.

I worked for a union international for ten years. So, I’ll beg your pardon if I rely on my real world experience and labor law education rather than your imaginary scenario.

First of all, unions are much more interested in organizing companies that are less generous to their employees. It’s much more difficult, even in the days when the weight of the government wasn’t against the unions, to organize a company that is populated with a majority of satisfied and happy employees. In such a case the disgruntled exceptions wouldn’t get any traction with the happy majority.

Second, it’s the union that can’t tell its side of the story in an organizing campaign. The employer has no obligation under the law to give organizers access to its workers on its property. All that the employer must do, after the union has obtained at least 50% of the employees’ signatures on union election cards, is furnish the union with what’s called an “Excelsior list”. It’s the same thing as a voter roll in a public election. From the time that the employer becomes aware that a campaign is in progress, which is usually very soon after it commences, it is completely allowed to hold employee informational meetings on its property on its time and to furnish as many informational flyers, brochures and letters as it chooses.

What commonly happens with the Excelsior list is that it is incomplete and riddled with errors. In recent times, the Labor Board has ignored the law and routinely ruled that even though the employer has engaged in “unfair labor practices”, a prohibited activity, no election in the employer’s favor is overturned. So, the union is often unable to identify who the employees are right up to the day of an election, if it ever gets that far.

On the rare occasions when the combined efforts of the employer and the government fail to stop an organizing campaign, the union doesn’t “muscle its way in and make up a bunch of stupid rules (which the union will label as ‘rights&#8217”. It simply isn’t in the union’s best interests to force a company out of business because they lose those members and the revenues they generate in terms of union dues. More often, a company that goes out of business after being organized was destined to do so anyway because of bad business decisions to start with. More often than not, a company that has mistreated its employees doesn’t have their loyalty and suffers from the long term effects of poor moral and employee animosity.

What happens most often is that for a time the employer attempts to avoid good faith negotiations and then the parties eventually settle into a routine of negotiations that results in a set of work rules that afford the workers a process for fair and just discipline procedure and wage rules. The vast majority of wage rules give fair treatment to each class of workers, i.e., pipefitters, janitors, carpenters, foremen, and so on.

Generally, each class of workers is paid the same rate of pay. In some cases, seniority entitles them to graduated pay levels. And, rather then a system of favoritism, workers are able to get job assignments and promotions based on seniority. The manager’s brother-in-law who would get promotions even though he’s an incompetent buffoon, can’t do so in the union environment.

Under current labor law, employers involved in labor disputes with unions can be forced to accept mediation and/or binding arbitration. Myself, I’m against binding arbitration because the vast majority of arbitrators are biased in favor of the employer because the vast majority are former company labor relations officers who have gone back to school and become arbitrators. The ten years that I worked for a rail union was all as an arbitration advocate presenting disputes to the National Railroad Adjustment Board, the rail industry equivalent of the Nation Labor Relations Board. So I am very familiar with hundreds of the arbitrators and their backgrounds.

The bottom line is that few employers fail because of union activity. And, very few “enlightened” employers like your company are targeted for union organizing, for obvious reasons. And, non-union employers have the power and the definite legal advantage in an organizing campaign. Your imaginary scenario is simply mistaken.

BTW, I am a small business owner now and have owned another business a number of years ago. So before you jump to uniformed conclusions about who I am and what I know you'd be better served to talk about what you really know rather than what you think you know.

 

[Avatar4321]

Im against all legislation that lies about what it does in the title. Im against bills that take away rights to private ballots.

 

[Patriot2009]

i am curious.....why are blue collar workers too stupid to negotiate their own salary and benifits......

why do they turn over their rights and power to an elite group of union bosses that belong to the same clubs as the ceo's....live in the same neighborhoods and drive the same cars.....

it's not about "stupid". it's about POWERLESS. You know what corporate management says to workers who ask for a living wage when there's no union protection? If history taught us anything, they say "go screw yourself. someone else will do the job cheaper".

and people would rather make garbage money under garbage conditions than not have money for food.

A better question is why do blue collar workers vote against their own self-interest and buy into corporatist lies?

really....i know plenty of workers that work for those "evil corporations" and earn more than a living wage and have good benifits and don't pay union dues......and are in control of their own destiny.....

In control of thier own destiny unless they get crossways with a manager intent on getting rid of them so he can put his halfwit brother-in-law in thier spot! They have absolutely no protection even if they're the best worker the company ever had.

 

[driveby]

I won't discredit your whole post. A big thing in our company that i didn't mention before is that we also pay for performance, which union types like to label as favoritism. You can't pay a worker that performs better a higher salary or higher anything for that matter in a union environment. Again as i said in another post, forgive me if i don't trust a government arbitrator ( if it had to come to that ) to make critical decisions about regarding my company when they know jack shit about my business.

Unions had their time, but it has come and gone. There are more than enough labor laws now that protect workers to make unions obsolete. Unions are just a big fucking drain on any company, you want more evidence, see Ford, Chrysler and GM, all three have been reduced to pension companies that happen to make cars........

 

[Avatar4321]

In control of thier own destiny unless they get crossways with a manager intent on getting rid of them so he can put his halfwit brother-in-law in thier spot! They have absolutely no protection even if they're the best worker the company ever had.

Why do you think we need protection? If some stupid manager does that, the answers simple. Get a new and better job. Watch the former company go under.

Or better yet, start your own business. Be the boss.

Take charge of your own destiny. Stop depending on others to take care of your life.

 

[Patriot2009]

No disrespect intended, but, you won’t discredit my whole post because its factual rather than hysterical or full of misconceptions and mistaken opinions.

You’re correct to the extent that you claim that unions had their time. But, the workplace has so changed in the technological revolution that the need for unions has revived.

There are stories in the news all the time about how workers are abused and how the wage/hour and labor laws on the books are inadequate to protect them.

And, as for the big three, they are another excellent example of exquisitely bad management. While the Japanese, Chinese and European car makers were responding to the needs of the marketplace with innovative designs, quality and even better marketing campaigns, Detroit was intent on forcing gas hogs with ever more bells and whistles rather than quality and economy down the throats of consumers .

That is what has brought them to where they are today, not union intransigence. Their workers are not really paid that much more than their import counterparts. And, that’s not to mention that under current law, if they really wanted to lighten the load they carry in terms of their union pay and benefits, it actually wouldn’t have been that difficult. The truth is that the unions are being made the scapegoats for corporate mismanagement. The CEO’s weren’t even smart enough to leave the 30 million dollar jets at home when they trooped to Washington with their hands out.

 

[michiganFats]

In control of thier own destiny unless they get crossways with a manager intent on getting rid of them so he can put his halfwit brother-in-law in thier spot! They have absolutely no protection even if they're the best worker the company ever had.

Do you really believe that Unions stop this from happening? In my experience the Unions are just as guilty of this as the companies they are bargaining with. You being a union guy and all, should be very familiar with the phrase " It ain't what you know, it's who you know".

 

[driveby]

it's not about "stupid". it's about POWERLESS. You know what corporate management says to workers who ask for a living wage when there's no union protection? If history taught us anything, they say "go screw yourself. someone else will do the job cheaper".

and people would rather make garbage money under garbage conditions than not have money for food.

A better question is why do blue collar workers vote against their own self-interest and buy into corporatist lies?

really....i know plenty of workers that work for those "evil corporations" and earn more than a living wage and have good benifits and don't pay union dues......and are in control of their own destiny.....

In control of thier own destiny unless they get crossways with a manager intent on getting rid of them so he can put his halfwit brother-in-law in thier spot! They have absolutely no protection even if they're the best worker the company ever had.

What year are you living in ?

1) The manager can still get rid of you and hire his hafwit brother in law.

2) Companies get sued for doing that kind of thing and are scared to death of being sued even when they fire bad employees.

 

[Patriot2009]

If you’re dumb enough to think that jumping from job to job all your life is the way to go, be my guest. There are plenty of fast food joints that would take you for a while at least. And, I strongly suspect that with your attitude you’d be the yahoo who’d be trying to hire his or her half-wit brother-in-law, and if you hocked your house to start your own business, you’d be precisely the guy whose employees would organize against him.

 

[driveby]

No disrespect intended, but, you won’t discredit my whole post because its factual rather than hysterical or full of misconceptions and mistaken opinions.

I worked in a strong union environment ( glass manufacturer, our "international" was AFL-CIO) for 11 years before i joined my current company six years ago. I speak from experience, not hysterical misconceptions.

Long story short, they went out of business, not entirely the unions fault. Their final nail in the coffin was bringing in consultants that spent a bunch of money on the plant, but really had no clue what they were doing. Sounds a little like the Obama administration eh ?

 

[driveby]

In control of thier own destiny unless they get crossways with a manager intent on getting rid of them so he can put his halfwit brother-in-law in thier spot! They have absolutely no protection even if they're the best worker the company ever had.

Do you really believe that Unions stop this from happening? In my experience the Unions are just as guilty of this as the companies they are bargaining with. You being a union guy and all, should be very familiar with the phrase " It ain't what you know, it's who you know".

You forgot one "That ain't my job to do that" ......