The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[Mushroom]

Japan surrounded "unconditionally". FACT.
Japan's Unconditional Surrender | HISTORY

What in the hell is that? A single sentence, and a bunch of photos?

You know, it's sad that History was once such a great channel. Now it is all about reality tv garbage, and the history was left behind long ago.

Here, want some proof that you are wrong? That is rather simple, really. Get ready, because here somes those pesky things known as facts.

We, acting by command of and in behalf of the Emperor of Japan, the Japanese Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters, hereby accept the provisions set forth in the declaration issued by the heads of the Governments of the United States, China and Great Britain on 26 July 1945, at Potsdam, and subsequently adhered to by the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, which four powers are hereafter referred to as the Allied Powers.

We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated.

We hereby command all Japanese forces wherever situated and the Japanese people to cease hostilities forthwith, to preserve and save from damage all ships, aircraft, and military and civil property and to comply with all requirements which may be imposed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by agencies of the Japanese Government at his direction.

We hereby command the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters to issue at once orders to the Commanders of all Japanese forces and all forces under Japanese control wherever situated to surrender unconditionally themselves and all forces under their control.

We hereby command all civil, military and naval officials to obey and enforce all proclamations, orders and directives deemed by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers to be proper to effectuate this surrender and issued by him or under his authority and we direct all such officials to remain at their posts and to continue to perform their non-combatant duties unless specifically relieved by him or under his authority.

We hereby undertake for the Emperor, the Japanese Government and their successors to carry out the provisions of the Potsdam Declaration in good faith, and to issue whatever orders and take whatever action may be required by the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers or by any other designated representative of the Allied Powers for the purpose of giving effect to that Declaration.

We hereby command the Japanese Imperial Government and the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters at once to liberate all allied prisoners of war and civilian internees now under Japanese control and to provide for their protection, care, maintenance and immediate transportation to places as directed.

The authority of the Emperor and the Japanese Government to rule the state shall be subject to the Supreme Commander for the Allied Powers who will take such steps as he deems proper to effectuate these terms of surrender.

Instrument of Surrender | Birth of the Constitution of Japan

www.ndl.go.jp

Wow, seems like that was nothing like an Unconditional Surrender. It again affirms that the Emperor and the Japanese Government remain in charge, but answer to the SCAP. That is not "unconditional". And what is presented above is the "Instrument of Surrender" that was signed in Tokyo Bay.

That is not an Unconditional Surrender. The Jewel Voice Broadcast never said Japan would surrender unconditionally, it only said that Japan would conform to Potsdam. And Potsdam never demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan, only the Unconditional Surrender of their armed forces.

It is so damned funny though, as none of you seem capable of doing any kind of actual research on your own. You vomit up some garbage web page that contains nothing of note, and think that means something. Meanwhile I take the time and effort to dig out actual original source documents, link them in case some do not believe me, then highlight the important parts.

But please, do not give me some idiots opinion, show me some actual hard factual documentation that Japan was asked to surrender unconditionally, or that they did surrender unconditionally. Because I have shown multiple times that was never the case.

 

[Mushroom]

The major one was of course to get Japan to surrender, but also to send vs a warning to Stalin.

Which would be stupid, Truman already told Stalin that a new kind of bomb more powerful than any other was about to be dropped on Japan if they did not respond.

And of course we know now that Stalin knew more about the bomb than even President Truman did.

 

[BS Filter]

I'm not wrong. And I'm certainly not going to admit being wrong when I'm not.

The timeline is as I said it was.

August 6: Hiroshima
August 9: Nagasaki
August 10: Japan offers a conditional surrender



No I'm not. Japan's condition on August 10 was that we allow Hirohito to retain unlimited dictatorial power.



Here is a third thing that you are wrong about. We backed off from unconditional surrender when we issued the Potsdam Proclamation. That was long before Hiroshima.



I've done my research. That's how I am able to point out all these errors that you keep making.

What in the hell is that? A single sentence, and a bunch of photos?

You know, it's sad that History was once such a great channel. Now it is all about reality tv garbage, and the history was left behind long ago.

Here, want some proof that you are wrong? That is rather simple, really. Get ready, because here somes those pesky things known as facts.

Instrument of Surrender | Birth of the Constitution of Japan

www.ndl.go.jp

Wow, seems like that was nothing like an Unconditional Surrender. It again affirms that the Emperor and the Japanese Government remain in charge, but answer to the SCAP. That is not "unconditional". And what is presented above is the "Instrument of Surrender" that was signed in Tokyo Bay.

That is not an Unconditional Surrender. The Jewel Voice Broadcast never said Japan would surrender unconditionally, it only said that Japan would conform to Potsdam. And Potsdam never demanded the unconditional surrender of Japan, only the Unconditional Surrender of their armed forces.

It is so damned funny though, as none of you seem capable of doing any kind of actual research on your own. You vomit up some garbage web page that contains nothing of note, and think that means something. Meanwhile I take the time and effort to dig out actual original source documents, link them in case some do not believe me, then highlight the important parts.

But please, do not give me some idiots opinion, show me some actual hard factual documentation that Japan was asked to surrender unconditionally, or that they did surrender unconditionally. Because I have shown multiple times that was never the case.

From your own link: "We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated".

Next thing you'll tell me is that the Nazis weren't socialists.

 

[Open Bolt]

Japan surrounded "unconditionally". FACT.

Not a fact. An unconditional surrender is when there are no conditions.
The Potsdam Proclamation presented Japan with a list of generous surrender conditions.

Potsdam Declaration - Nuclear Museum

Proclamation Defining Terms for Japanese SurrenderIssued, at Potsdam, July 26, 1945 We―the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have...

www.atomicheritage.org

EDIT: It is true though that Japan was not allowed to add any conditions of their own to the list of conditions that we presented to them.

 

[Open Bolt]

Next thing you'll tell me is that the Nazis weren't socialists.

Fascism mixed the worst ideas of both the right and the left. Nazism took Fascism and added in the mass murder of innocent people.

 

[BS Filter]

Not a fact. An unconditional surrender is when there are no conditions.
The Potsdam Proclamation presented Japan with a list of generous surrender conditions.

Potsdam Declaration - Nuclear Museum

Proclamation Defining Terms for Japanese SurrenderIssued, at Potsdam, July 26, 1945 We―the President of the United States, the President of the National Government of the Republic of China, and the Prime Minister of Great Britain, representing the hundreds of millions of our countrymen, have...

www.atomicheritage.org

EDIT: It is true though that Japan was not allowed to add any conditions of their own to the list of conditions that we presented to them.

You don't get it. Have a nice day.

 

[BS Filter]

Fascism mixed the worst ideas of both the right and the left. Nazism took Fascism and added in the mass murder of innocent people.

Whatever....Nazis were socialists. Period.

 

[DudleySmith]

LMFAO…you are actually fine with mass murdering defenseless women and children. You’re a sick fuck.

lol you're fine with letting scum overrun whole countries and mass murdering the inhabitants without any resistance that might force you out from hiding under your bed or inconvenience you in any way, so all your idiot chickenshit peacenik posturing is just pathetic wimpering, typical of the unprincipled little dirtbag narcissists produced by the dope and disco culture of the 1960's and 1970's, trying to hide behind some idiotic ideology or other. You scum wouldn't do a thing to defend freedom, or anything else.

A recent survey found over 60% of Democrats wouldn't defend this country in any way, and over 32% of Republicans feel the same way; they would run away instead. Contrast that with the less than 2% of Americans after the bombing of Pearl. We see these little turd blossoms on here all the time, sniveling little pissants making apologia for the likes of Japan and Germany's actions and disparaging the U.S. for daring to put a stop to the excesses of these vermin. We need to take a clue from Thomas Jefferson and start deporting these vermin to some place they will be happy, like Red China or Putin's Russia, and let these cretins learn first hand just how 'valued' they are by their friends.

 

[Mushroom]

From your own link: "We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated".

Yes, armed forces.

Does it say the Government?

Does it say the Emperor?

Does it say the Nation? Or the people?

No, it only says the armed forces. Thank you for making it even more clear that the surrender was very specific and not "unconditional" at all.

 

[Mushroom]

From your own link: "We hereby proclaim the unconditional surrender to the Allied Powers of the Japanese Imperial General Headquarters and of all Japanese armed forces and all armed forces under Japanese control wherever situated".

Next thing you'll tell me is that the Nazis weren't socialists.

Oh, and final nail in the coffin. Potsdam was almost the exact same wording used in the German Instrument of Surrender. Demanding only the surrender of the armed forces, not the civilian government. But in that case, with the death of Der Wallpaper Hangar, the NSDAP government had already largely imploded. But if you look at what happened, the Allied Powers simply moved in, and largely left the government left in place. Mayors were still mayors, police were still police. They even quickly cleared and drafted a lot of German Military to assume most of the law enforcement duties previously done by the Gestapo and SS.

But notice, Germany also did not surrender until the NSDAP collapsed with the death of the leadership. Even their planned "after defeat" operations like Werewolf never happened. Even those most fanatical knew the government was done, so no use fighting for and dying for something that no longer existed.

Now, an example of an Unconditional Surrender can be found in Kuwait. When Iraq invaded that nation in 1990, there was no surrender at all. They took over the entire nation, destroyed all of the existing government infrastructure, and absorbed it into their own country. We are seeing the same thing happen in Ukraine now. As Russia gains control of a city they replace all infrastructure with their own puppets. Mayors, City Councils, Law Enforcement, all existing before are removed and it is now under "New Ownership".

That was never demanded of Japan. It might have been of Germany, before Der Doodler decided to eat a PPK sandwich.

Oh, and any moron should know they were Socialists. After all, it is clearly right there in their name. NSDAP.

 

[gipper]

lol you're fine with letting scum overrun whole countries and mass murdering the inhabitants without any resistance that might force you out from hiding under your bed or inconvenience you in any way, so all your idiot chickenshit peacenik posturing is just pathetic wimpering, typical of the unprincipled little dirtbag narcissists produced by the dope and disco culture of the 1960's and 1970's, trying to hide behind some idiotic ideology or other. You scum wouldn't do a thing to defend freedom, or anything else.

A recent survey found over 60% of Democrats wouldn't defend this country in any way, and over 32% of Republicans feel the same way; they would run away instead. Contrast that with the less than 2% of Americans after the bombing of Pearl. We see these little turd blossoms on here all the time, sniveling little pissants making apologia for the likes of Japan and Germany's actions and disparaging the U.S. for daring to put a stop to the excesses of these vermin. We need to take a clue from Thomas Jefferson and start deporting these vermin to some place they will be happy, like Red China or Putin's Russia, and let these cretins learn first hand just how 'valued' they are by their friends.

War hysteria pushed by the corrupt establishment fucks up a lot of people, who should know better.

 

[elektra]

Thank God for the big bombs of history that won a war and ended the deaths of so many people on both sides.

I also thank God that he gave us the intelligence to laugh at your petty, hateful, ignorant attempts to rewrite such a great history.

It is nice to see the stupid, the hateful, expose their ignorance so openly.

We should of did the same while fighting North Korea. Maybe next time.

 

[BS Filter]

Yes, armed forces.

Does it say the Government?

Does it say the Emperor?

Does it say the Nation? Or the people?

No, it only says the armed forces. Thank you for making it even more clear that the surrender was very specific and not "unconditional" at all.

You're an idiot.

 

[Mushroom]

You're an idiot.

Thank you for that excellent and informative post. I can see that as always you have well thought out your response, and provided ample proof of why you are correct.

However, I have noted long ago that you provide no references, seem to have only the barest understanding of the war and the Japanese government at the time, and seem to rather be like John Snow.

Care to comment next on the Taisei Yokusankai, and how they impacted the course of the war and the decision to surrender?

 

[gipper]

elektra Mushroom DudleySmith Open Bolt

The way things are going lately you guys might get your death wish with a nuclear holocaust. Oh how happy you’ll be, except your likely to be dead.

 

[BS Filter]

Thank you for that excellent and informative post. I can see that as always you have well thought out your response, and provided ample proof of why you are correct.

However, I have noted long ago that you provide no references, seem to have only the barest understanding of the war and the Japanese government at the time, and seem to rather be like John Snow.

Care to comment next on the Taisei Yokusankai, and how they impacted the course of the war and the decision to surrender?

So the history books are are wrong according to you? You're an idiot.

 

[BS Filter]

So the history books are are wrong according to you? You're an idiot.

The Dangerous Illusion of Japan’s Unconditional Surrender

For decades, U.S. foreign policy has been badly distorted by the way that World War II ended.

foreignpolicy.com

Notice the word "unconditional".

 

[BS Filter]

Here's another source. Unconditional.

Japan Surrenders

Enlarge The Japanese envoys sign the Instrument of Surrender on board the U.S.S. Missouri. Record Group 80-G General Records of the U.S. Navy. On September 2, 1945, the Japanese representatives signed the official Instrument of Surrender, prepared by the War Department and approved by...

www.archives.gov

 

[Mushroom]

Notice the word "unconditional".

I notice it is an article I have to pay to read, and that at the very top it clearly states it is an "Argument". In other words, that is an opinion piece.

But I again notice quite clearly in what I could read that the SCAP accepted the surrender of the "Imperial General Headquarters and all of the armed forces under Japanese control".

Once again, a highly conditional surrender. Where does it say the government surrendered? The people? Where was the nation itself surrendered?

You keep failing to grasp the significant difference. The military is not the country.

How here, try to exercise your brain a bit, and follow what I am saying. In WWII the US loses, and is forced to do the same thing. Surrender all of it's armed forces.

But once that is done, the President still runs the country, through the canescent of Congress. Judges are not replaced, the nation is not put under Martial Law, all of the old structure remains in place. SO explain to me, how that could be an "unconditional surrender", if the only thing that changed is that the military surrendered and nothing else?

FYI, the history I learned did indeed explain the difference. I can only assume you have never gone beyond the basic history they teach in public schools. Where all of WWII is covered in a mere two weeks or so, and barely goes into any kind of details of more than a couple of battles (generally only D-Day and Bulge, maybe Iwo Jima and Okinawa). Or that WWII started for the US because they slapped a boycott on Japan and they had no choice but to attack. Of course, they only give the absolute basics of history, and often get things horribly wrong. Like saying the US won the War of 1812, or that the US entered WWI because of the sinking of the HMS Lusitania.

Most times, such "history" at most gives a student a Cliff's Notes version of an article from Reader's Digest.

Myself, I have actually made it a specialty to study the Pacific War for almost 40 years now. And actually lived in Japan. You maybe should have realized it by how easily I mention a great many things that almost never appear in a "history book" outside of a College Level course on the topic. I have actually talked to individuals that are often in history books, and have made this one conflict more than any other my area of special interest.

Feel free to go back and read here or in any other thread whenever I bring up the Emperor. Notice, I never call him by his name, he is always "Emperor Showa", and I call that time the "Early Showa Era". Once again, because I spent decades getting into the mind of the leaders of the era, and to do so had to learn to at least as far as I could "Think Japanese".

You, by the way things I have stated quite clearly are just brushed off you dismiss as completely unimportant. The Big Six, the Imperial Rule Assistance Association, I bet that and more mean absolutely nothing to you. But without understanding those two organizations, it is completely impossible for you to ever understand what was going on in the minds of those in charge of Japan, and who were the only ones with the power to surrender.

In short, you are a bigot and troll, and I have long ago grown tired of you.

Oh, and I am sure this little fact will blow your mind. At the end of WWI, Germany did not surrender. Please feel free to start another topic on that, but it is true. That shows how superficial history is in most schools. And most walk out with a diploma, and barely understand anything about what really happened.

 

[BS Filter]

I notice it is an article I have to pay to read, and that at the very top it clearly states it is an "Argument". In other words, that is an opinion piece.

But I again notice quite clearly in what I could read that the SCAP accepted the surrender of the "Imperial General Headquarters and all of the armed forces under Japanese control".

Once again, a highly conditional surrender. Where does it say the government surrendered? The people? Where was the nation itself surrendered?

You keep failing to grasp the significant difference. The military is not the country.

How here, try to exercise your brain a bit, and follow what I am saying. In WWII the US loses, and is forced to do the same thing. Surrender all of it's armed forces.

But once that is done, the President still runs the country, through the canescent of Congress. Judges are not replaced, the nation is not put under Martial Law, all of the old structure remains in place. SO explain to me, how that could be an "unconditional surrender", if the only thing that changed is that the military surrendered and nothing else?

FYI, the history I learned did indeed explain the difference. I can only assume you have never gone beyond the basic history they teach in public schools. Where all of WWII is covered in a mere two weeks or so, and barely goes into any kind of details of more than a couple of battles (generally only D-Day and Bulge, maybe Iwo Jima and Okinawa). Or that WWII started for the US because they slapped a boycott on Japan and they had no choice but to attack. Of course, they only give the absolute basics of history, and often get things horribly wrong. Like saying the US won the War of 1812, or that the US entered WWI because of the sinking of the HMS Lusitania.

Most times, such "history" at most gives a student a Cliff's Notes version of an article from Reader's Digest.

Myself, I have actually made it a specialty to study the Pacific War for almost 40 years now. And actually lived in Japan. You maybe should have realized it by how easily I mention a great many things that almost never appear in a "history book" outside of a College Level course on the topic. I have actually talked to individuals that are often in history books, and have made this one conflict more than any other my area of special interest.

Feel free to go back and read here or in any other thread whenever I bring up the Emperor. Notice, I never call him by his name, he is always "Emperor Showa", and I call that time the "Early Showa Era". Once again, because I spent decades getting into the mind of the leaders of the era, and to do so had to learn to at least as far as I could "Think Japanese".

You, by the way things I have stated quite clearly are just brushed off you dismiss as completely unimportant. The Big Six, the Imperial Rule Assistance Association, I bet that and more mean absolutely nothing to you. But without understanding those two organizations, it is completely impossible for you to ever understand what was going on in the minds of those in charge of Japan, and who were the only ones with the power to surrender.

In short, you are a bigot and troll, and I have long ago grown tired of you.

Oh, and I am sure this little fact will blow your mind. At the end of WWI, Germany did not surrender. Please feel free to start another topic on that, but it is true. That shows how superficial history is in most schools. And most walk out with a diploma, and barely understand anything about what really happened.

You really are full of crap. Who was the person who ruled Japan after surrender and oversaw the drafting of their Constitution?