The Nuking of Nagasaki: Even More Immoral and Unnecessary than Hiroshima

[elektra]

Ironical post is ironical. And oblivious to self-awareness.

Irony, that would be the fact the mikegriffter is arguing his religious view as a Mormon and you never figuring it out.

Oblivious, that is irony, you are oblivious that this is an OP based on one person's personal religious view. That of a Mormon.

Why do you think I am so hard on the guy, it is cause he is a liar and has been posting very cowardly. The guy is a liar and was and is hiding behind other people's words.

Why do you post pogo, or better yet, how come you have not stepped up to tackle the tough questions I put to the mormon?

 

[elektra]

Why bring this up now-you weren't there and its over. Move on.

It is obvious that this is not over for this person. He is a mormon and runs his own website. He has paid to run an ad, or a topic of himself on wikipedia. So this guy is self-promoting himself. I am not sure of all the places he promotes himself but he does pay google so that he can be found on wikipedia as well as to have his website found.

This is just another way for him to create traffic and interest in what he says about his religious beliefs.

And yes, this is a thinly disguised religious thread.

The author is a mormon who believes all killing is sin and that any killing is against his religion.

So that is the answer to why he brings this up, it is a theme of his. Maybe he teaches mormons this in school. Maybe he is one of those professors that teaches hate in the school room. Who knows. But at the least, and without further searching, this is what I have learned to be pure fact.

This is the age when one must make an internet presence that creates traffic. Popularity on the internet, even negative popularity is good. There are many people who appreciate the view, that the USA is the World's bad guys, that the world must fight against us. Chances are, this man makes money trashing our great country.

 

[Pogo]

Ironical post is ironical. And oblivious to self-awareness.

Irony, that would be the fact the mikegriffter is arguing his religious view as a Mormon and you never figuring it out.

Oblivious, that is irony, you are oblivious that this is an OP based on one person's personal religious view. That of a Mormon.

Why do you think I am so hard on the guy, it is cause he is a liar and has been posting very cowardly. The guy is a liar and was and is hiding behind other people's words.

Why do you post pogo, or better yet, how come you have not stepped up to tackle the tough questions I put to the mormon?

Why am I not surprised that your cluelessness of what irony means is commensurate with that of your ignorance of satire.

The irony, sir, is here, where you fling turds that exactly describe your own MO, at other people:

What a pretentious elitist snob of an ass you are.

You begin by insulting anybody who disagrees with your opinion. That makes this a simple troll thread.

You also dictate that everyone is wrong, hence you set a rule that only you are right.

--- which you cut out of the quote as inconvenient, which in turn tells us that you actually do understand the criticism, and have no brighter retort than to play dumb.

The OP has submitted a valid topic for discussion. All you've done is throw hissyfits and call people names.

 

[elektra]

The OP has submitted a valid topic for discussion. All you've done is throw hissyfits and call people names.

Why dont you quit your crying and try to tackle one of those dam hard posts. All you do is whine while ratng posts funny.

Weak you are.

Valid topic yes, a discussion? No, not at all. Pontificating on his part

 

[mikegriffith1]

Why bring this up now-you weren't thereits over. Move on.

It is obvious that this is not over for this person. He is a mormon and runs his own website. He has paid to run an ad, or a topic of himself on wikipedia. So this guy is self-promoting himself. I am not sure of all the places he promotes himself but he does pay google so that he can be found on wikipedia as well as to have his website found.

This is just another way for him to create traffic and interest in what he says about his religious beliefs.

And yes, this is a thinly disguised religious thread.

The author is a mormon who believes all killing is sin and that any killing is against his religion.

So that is the answer to why he brings this up, it is a theme of his. Maybe he teaches mormons this in school. Maybe he is one of those professors that teaches hate in the school room. Who knows. But at the least, and without further searching, this is what I have learned to be pure fact.

This is the age when one must make an internet presence that creates traffic. Popularity on the internet, even negative popularity is good. There are many people who appreciate the view, that the USA is the World's bad guys, that the world must fight against us. Chances are, this man makes money trashing our great country.

Huh??? What does my religion, which you clearly know nothing about, have to do with this? And, no, I haven't paid Wikipedia to do a Wikipage on me. Nor have I paid Google to help people find my website. And, no, the Mormon faith does not teach that all killing is wrong--we distinguish between murdering someone and killing someone in self-defense or in a valid act of war. It is comical that you see my OP as a "thinly veiled religious" OP.

Now, please explain how I have "trashed" our great country? Humm? Is criticism of a government official automatically the same as "trashing our great country" in your mind? That's the only way that you could believe that I have trashed America.

Patriotism is not blindly defending government officials when they do wrong. On the contrary, criticizing government officials when they do actions that violate the Constitution, violate the rules of war, and trample on basic human decency is the patriotic duty of every citizen.

 

[elektra]

Why bring this up now-you weren't thereits over. Move on.

It is obvious that this is not over for this person. He is a mormon and runs his own website. He has paid to run an ad, or a topic of himself on wikipedia. So this guy is self-promoting himself. I am not sure of all the places he promotes himself but he does pay google so that he can be found on wikipedia as well as to have his website found.

This is just another way for him to create traffic and interest in what he says about his religious beliefs.

And yes, this is a thinly disguised religious thread.

The author is a mormon who believes all killing is sin and that any killing is against his religion.

So that is the answer to why he brings this up, it is a theme of his. Maybe he teaches mormons this in school. Maybe he is one of those professors that teaches hate in the school room. Who knows. But at the least, and without further searching, this is what I have learned to be pure fact.

This is the age when one must make an internet presence that creates traffic. Popularity on the internet, even negative popularity is good. There are many people who appreciate the view, that the USA is the World's bad guys, that the world must fight against us. Chances are, this man makes money trashing our great country.

Huh??? What does my religion, which you clearly know nothing about, have to do with this? And, no, I haven't paid Wikipedia to do a Wikipage on me. Nor have I paid Google to help people find my website. And, no, the Mormon faith does not teach that all killing is wrong--we distinguish between murdering someone and killing someone in self-defense or in a valid act of war. It is comical that you see my OP as a "thinly veiled religious" OP.

Now, please explain how I have "trashed" our great country? Humm? Is criticism of a government official automatically the same as "trashing our great country" in your mind? That's the only way that you could believe that I have trashed America.

Patriotism is not blindly defending government officials when they do wrong. On the contrary, criticizing government officials when they do actions that violate the Constitution, violate the rules of war, and trample on basic human decency is the patriotic duty of every citizen.

I say you're liar. Your religion has everything to do with your opinion expressed here.

MORALITY, the morality of your religious belief, as a MORMON is what you have argued.

Government officials? Like McGeorge Bundy, a lieutenant in WW II?

Comical, yes it is comical when you rely on 26 year old army officers for a quote?

Have you responded to my post bringing that up, of course not, because you have continually failed at proving the premise of your post.

I get it, you di not give a rat's ass that our young men were being brutally beat, tortured, and killed every day they were prisoners.

Yes, you dont give a shit and it is disgusting. Good americans should boycott the likes of you and every thing you are involved in.

Our leaders ended war, you argue that we should of lost the war.

Go ahead, explain how you would of won without killing a soul.

Oh I got you, you won't explain anything. You won't support or explain any of your posts. You will not link to your sources or the things you auote.

You just pile on more bullshit you can not defend.

H8w about those studies you made claim of. You going to link?

You do not know what patriotism is, not to america. You have a lesser understanding of war.

Pathetic, wear it proud.

 

[elektra]

[Q

Huh??? What does my religion, which you clearly know nothing about, have to do with this?



Now, please explain how I have "trashed" our great country? Humm? Is criticism of a government official automatically the same as "trashing our great country" in your mind? That's the only way that you could believe that I have trashed America.

You are asking questions of me, when in your OP you have refused to answer any questions.

You trash our country now act like you have done nothing but criticized?

Calling the USA immoral, barbaric, is simply criticizing?

Yes, you trash this great country based on your ignorance and mormon religious beliefs.

 

[elektra]

It is nice to see the author of this OP can take the time to reply when I call him out on hiding his religious belief while trashing our fine history and leaders.

But the griffter can not take the time to answer any post that asks for a clarification of his contradictory statements or when asked to provide links to studies he claims prove his points.

The op is full of quotes with nothing linked our sources, where is the reply?

Nope, nothing, the griffter has simply trashed and insulted the USA and when questioned, he piles on again, with simple, hateful, mean, commentary.

That is right, if I can use mgriffter's words, you immoral barbaric americans!

 

[Unkotare]

Surely it was obscene for us to nuke Nagasaki just three days, 72 hours, after we had nuked Hiroshima.

After 3.5 years of war, after countless tortures of prisoners. After 10's of thousands murders of helpless prisoners of war. After 3.5 years of torture and murder of American citizens......

Can you get any more barbaric and inhumane? First of all, the number of Japanese civilians that we killed dwarfs the number of American citizens that the Japanese killed. We excoriated the Japanese for bombing a few cities in China, but then we turned around and bombed over 60 of Japanese cities and killed over 500,000 civilians in the process, most of them women and children.

It is sad that you can't even admit that nuking another Japanese city three days after Hiroshima was unbelievably cruel and barbaric. Even McGeorge Bundy was willing to admit that that was wrong.

Second, we murdered thousands of Japanese POWs and Japanese soldiers who were trying to surrender. Even worse, the Soviets murdered most of the hundreds of thousands of Japanese POWs they took in Manchuria and the Kuriles. Yet, we let the Soviets put judges on the war crimes tribunals that were held in Europe and Asia after the war.

Fuck you nippy, I would have dropped those bombs myself

As if the likes of you would ever be in a position of authority.

Okeedokee Nippy, what was th

Bye

You keep trying to make absurd declarations about this topic, which only highlights the fact that you are harboring deep feelings of guilt about it and do not have the courage to reflect upon yourself directly.

 

[Unkotare]

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima

Surely it was obscene for us to nuke Nagasaki just three days, 72 hours, after we had nuked Hiroshima.

There are low life scums, and I must say, you are one. Period.

First, you are nothing but a dirty filthy liar.
Second, you are a weak pathetic coward.

You are a MORMON!!!

You started a thread based on your religious belief. That killing is immoral according to the Mormon religion. You hunt around the internet to find what other people state, and attempt to present the quotes as fact, instead of expressing the Mormon church view. Many of the quotes given, are cherry picked and taken out of context. I have not seen links to your quotes? I have asked for them but have not been given them. That is because you know that you arguing as a mormon while hiding behind what others say.

The mormon's religious choice is impossible to defend, as we have seen, by the weak pathetic use of revisionist history written by others.

That is a cowardly way to present your religion's (as well as your) moral choice.

And now you are trying to hide your guilt behind the most clumsy and obvious religious bigotry. You are only making yourself more and more obvious

 

[Unkotare]

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima cannot be made for the nuking of Nagasaki just three days later. From my article "Did We Really Need to Use the Atomic Bomb Against Japan?":

On August 9, 1945, just three days after we nuked Hiroshima, and before Japan’s leaders had sufficient time to process and respond to our nuclear attack on Hiroshima, we dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Nagasaki, which was home to Japan’s largest Christian population. The atomic bombing of Nagasaki was even more inexcusable than the nuking of Hiroshima. . . .

On August 9, we nuked Nagasaki, just three days after Hiroshima, and hours after the Soviets began to maul the Japanese army in Manchuria,, and while Japan’s civilian leaders were understandably absorbed with trying to process what had happened to Hiroshima and with responding to the Soviet attack in Manchuria. Surely Truman and other high officials knew that three days was not enough time for Japan’s government to formulate a formal response to the unprecedented use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and to the Soviet invasion in Manchuria. Even McGeorge Bundy, who helped Henry Stimson write his defense of the atomic bombing of Japan, acknowledged that Truman was too quick to nuke Nagasaki:​

"It is hard to see that much could have been lost if there had been more time between the two bombs. . . . Such a delay would have been relatively easy, and I think right." (https://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf)
​

The Japanese were not even able to get a scientific team to Hiroshima until August 7, the day after the attack. Meanwhile, Japan's leaders were getting conflicting, fragmentary information about what had happened in Hiroshima. Some Army officials were telling the government that the bombing of Hiroshima was merely a very large conventional bombing raid, and they were suppressing information about the kinds of wounds that had been inflicted. There was no Internet back then, no fax machines, no Skype.

Surely it was obscene for us to nuke Nagasaki just three days, 72 hours, after we had nuked Hiroshima.

Why bring this up now-you weren't there and its over. Move on.

You don’t live in outer space, so why study astronomy? Don’t be stupid.

 

[Unkotare]

Morality, arguing morality with those who would marry their daughter and or have 10 wives that are underage makes me the fool.

There is another forum dedicated to religious bigotry of the sort you are now trying to hide behind. Why not take your irrational hatred there instead of very transparently trying to use it as a deflection here?

 

[elektra]

You keep trying to make absurd declarations about this topic, which only highlights the fact that you are harboring deep feelings of guilt about it and do not have the courage to reflect upon yourself directly.

You are a moron who's user name is a sexual perversion. Go drink a cup of maturity, delete your profile and come back as a human.

 

[elektra]

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima

Nice adjectives? Is that correct mr. griffter? After all you are the super college educated master and bashing the USA?

Bashing you say, well, again I will point out the obvious insults you have directed at the patriotic Americans.

You call our leaders, "Immoral", You call their actions "Immoral". You call events in our history that was necessary to win a war, "immoral".

Then you follow that up by dictating that if we are to offer facts of history, that those facts are, "embarrassing arguments".

So yes, you have flamed and trolled with the title of your OP and with your very first statement. Where is the proof, in the title, or in your opening statement, of the immorality?

And of course, what you do not dare to tell us because you are afraid and can not defend, is that you are a mormon and you are arguing your religious beliefs.

Cowardly and unjust you behave. You denigrate and insult and then act as if we are the offensive when we react to the tone you have set by being a big fat prick!

So explain the title, your opening statement, show us how it is not a troll thread, flaming those who respond. show us how you are simply not some worthless angry fuck, angry at americans, with this obviously demeaning attack on our patriotism and our knowledge of history and war.

 

[elektra]

As everyone will now see, I will challenge mr griffter to explain, support, and apologize, for opening a thread that is an attack on our grand history.

Mr griffter will ignore this, who will not have a response, unless it is to attack me and try to demean and marginalize me, as if I have the problem.

Mr griffter has alread said, that it is simply a criticism when he describes the actions of our military leaders, immoral, unnecessary, and so forth. I could dig up more insults but I will stick the slander dip wad began this thread with.

The asshole came here to insult, nothing more, as well as to self promote himself, as he does across the internet. All media that he can use to make a name for himself.

After the dumbass made his opening statement this is his next line:

From my article "Did We Really Need to Use the Atomic Bomb Against Japan?":

Yea, go ahead and deny that you did not begin this thread, as a troll, flaming all those that disagree with you, and that you are promoting yourself here.

Do not expect a real reply, other than to attack me.

 

[Unkotare]

You keep trying to make absurd declarations about this topic, which only highlights the fact that you are harboring deep feelings of guilt about it and do not have the courage to reflect upon yourself directly.

You are a moron......... Go drink a cup of maturity, delete your profile and come back as a human.

You gonna throw another hissy fit over religion now, bigot? Have you got anything left but screaming and stomping your little feet?

 

[mikegriffith1]

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima

Nice adjectives? Is that correct mr. griffter? After all you are the super college educated master and bashing the USA?

Bashing you say, well, again I will point out the obvious insults you have directed at the patriotic Americans.

You call our leaders, "Immoral", You call their actions "Immoral". You call events in our history that was necessary to win a war, "immoral".

Then you follow that up by dictating that if we are to offer facts of history, that those facts are, "embarrassing arguments".

So yes, you have flamed and trolled with the title of your OP and with your very first statement. Where is the proof, in the title, or in your opening statement, of the immorality?

And of course, what you do not dare to tell us because you are afraid and can not defend, is that you are a mormon and you are arguing your religious beliefs.

Cowardly and unjust you behave. You denigrate and insult and then act as if we are the offensive when we react to the tone you have set by being a big fat prick!

So explain the title, your opening statement, show us how it is not a troll thread, flaming those who respond. show us how you are simply not some worthless angry #($($, angry at americans, with this obviously demeaning attack on our patriotism and our knowledge of history and war.

What in the world are you talking about? "Angry at Americans"? Huh? Criticizing a handful of politicians and their killing of hundreds of thousands of women and children is not the same as attacking all Americans. Were Generals Eisenhower and MacArthur and Admirals Leahy and Halsey, among many other senior American officers, "angry at Americans" because they said we should not have nuked Japan?

Apparently your idea of "patriotism" is to blindly support FDR and Truman's handling of WWII, never mind the fact that their policies led to the subjugation of Eastern Europe to Soviet tyranny, the subjugation of China to Maoist Communist tyranny, the subjugation of North Korea to Communist tyranny, and the murder of tens of millions of Chinese by Mao's Communist regime.

Based on everything I've seen you say so far, you really don't seem to care very much about those terrible events, and you don't seem very interested in attacking the Soviets and the Maoists and the Nationalists, but you excoriate the Japanese, even though they killed fewer people than did the Soviets, the Nationalists, and the Chinese Communists, and even though they were strongly anti-communist and pro-capitalist.

By any rational measurement, the Japanese were clearly the lesser of the available evils, but FDR and Truman chose to support the worst of the evils and to nuke the lesser of them.

 

[Third Party]

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima cannot be made for the nuking of Nagasaki just three days later. From my article "Did We Really Need to Use the Atomic Bomb Against Japan?":

On August 9, 1945, just three days after we nuked Hiroshima, and before Japan’s leaders had sufficient time to process and respond to our nuclear attack on Hiroshima, we dropped an atomic bomb on the city of Nagasaki, which was home to Japan’s largest Christian population. The atomic bombing of Nagasaki was even more inexcusable than the nuking of Hiroshima. . . .

On August 9, we nuked Nagasaki, just three days after Hiroshima, and hours after the Soviets began to maul the Japanese army in Manchuria,, and while Japan’s civilian leaders were understandably absorbed with trying to process what had happened to Hiroshima and with responding to the Soviet attack in Manchuria. Surely Truman and other high officials knew that three days was not enough time for Japan’s government to formulate a formal response to the unprecedented use of the atomic bomb on Hiroshima and to the Soviet invasion in Manchuria. Even McGeorge Bundy, who helped Henry Stimson write his defense of the atomic bombing of Japan, acknowledged that Truman was too quick to nuke Nagasaki:​

"It is hard to see that much could have been lost if there had been more time between the two bombs. . . . Such a delay would have been relatively easy, and I think right." (https://miketgriffith.com/files/immoraluse.pdf)
​

The Japanese were not even able to get a scientific team to Hiroshima until August 7, the day after the attack. Meanwhile, Japan's leaders were getting conflicting, fragmentary information about what had happened in Hiroshima. Some Army officials were telling the government that the bombing of Hiroshima was merely a very large conventional bombing raid, and they were suppressing information about the kinds of wounds that had been inflicted. There was no Internet back then, no fax machines, no Skype.

Surely it was obscene for us to nuke Nagasaki just three days, 72 hours, after we had nuked Hiroshima.

Why bring this up now-you weren't there and its over. Move on.

You don’t live in outer space, so why study astronomy? Don’t be stupid.

I hope YOU are not talking to ME!

 

[elektra]

What in the world are you talking about? "Angry at Americans"? Huh? Criticizing a handful of politicians and their killing of hundreds of thousands of women and children is not the same as attacking all Americans.

Criticizing a handful of politicians? You started your thread criticizing everybody who offered facts that your opinion does not agree with!

Your opening statement makes you a lousy liar!

Whatever labored, embarrassing arguments one can make for the nuking of Hiroshima cannot be made for the nuking of Nagasaki just three days later.

If you care to clarify, go ahead. If you care to apologize, go ahead, but don't piss down my back and then tell me it is raining!!!

 

[mikegriffith1]

Criticizing a handful of politicians? You started your thread criticizing everybody who offered facts that your opinion does not agree with!

I did not attack any person; rather, I attacked the excuses that have been offered for nuking two defenseless cities of a country whose civilians leaders were already willing to surrender and that was on the verge of collapse. There is a difference.

Again, you excoriate the Japanese for their sins but seem uninterested in the sins of the Soviets, the Nationalists, and the Communists, whose sins were clearly worse than those of the Japanese.

You excoriate the Japanese for Nanking but seem just fine with our conventional bombing of over 60 Japanese cities, which killed at least 500,000 people, most of them women and children, not to mention our nuking of two defenseless Japanese cities, which killed at least 200,000 more civilians, most of them, again, women and children, even though Truman knew that Japan's civilian leaders wanted to surrender and needed his help to overcome the hardliners.

Even the vaguely worded Byrnes Note provided enough leverage for the moderates to create a situation where the emperor was able to order the hardliners to agree to a surrender.