The practical morality of abortion

[Davros]

The fertilized human egg has no intrinsic value. If you insist that it does, for whatever reason,

then you must concede that the unfertilized human egg has intrinsic value, as then does the sperm cell.

Then where are you at, 'morally'?

No...fertilized the human life has begun, separate, the sperm and egg will never be a human life.

True but a fertilized egg is not a person.

 

[NYcarbineer]

If one is going to kill a developing baby because the mother was raped, then the rapist who perpetrated the crime should also pay with his life. If we cannot execute the convicted rapist, why should we execute the baby who is innocent of any crime? And if a woman is willing to destroy a developing baby within her but unwilling to have the male perpetrator hung, electrocuted, thrown in acid, or dismembered ---- is she not as evil as the rapist --- if not more so?

Is there no pity for the innocent? And when there is, doesn't that make the rape victim more noble in the eyes of God if not society?

Excellent point which brings up a question for pro abortionists.....

If the mother is allowed by society to kill the baby created through rape, thereby executing the death penalty on the new human life, then you must also support executing the rapist...since it was his act that ended the life of the baby...right?

If abortion is murder then women who have abortions must be treated as murderers. We know two facts from that logic:

1. We know how our society treats all other murderers (excluding abortion as murder).

2. We know that our society in its current state will never treat women who have abortions in the same manner.

 

[sealybobo]

This is a video I came upon this afternoon. It makes points I really hadn't considered before about the morality of abortion. I typed up the transcript for those who prefer not to watch the video, or have internet connections that cannot support streaming video content, or are just too plain dishonest to watch the video at all and throw random liberal talking points into the mix.

For those who will neither read nor watch the video, there is a reason why you are on my ignore list. For the rest of you, enjoy.





---Begin transcript---

Lets talk about one of the most emotionally charged subjects there is: Abortion--but in an unemotional way. Also, let's not touch on the question that most preoccupies discussion of the subject, whether abortion should be legal or illegal. The only question here is the moral one. Is ending the life of a human fetus moral?

Let's begin with this question:

Does the human fetus have any value and any rights?

Now, it's a scientific fact that a human fetus is human life. Those who argue that the human fetus has no rights, say that a fetus is not a person. But even if you believe that, it doesn't mean the fetus has no intrinsic value or no rights.

There are many living beings that are not persons that have both value and rights; dogs and other animals for example.

And that's moral argument #1:

A living being doesn't have to be a person in order to have intrinsic moral value and rights.

---Pause for effect---

When challenged with this argument, people usually change the subject to the rights of the mother. Meaning the rights of the mother to end her fetus's life:

1. under any circumstance
2. for any reason and;
3. at any time in her pregnancy

Is that moral?

It is, only if we believe the human fetus has no intrinsic worth. But in most cases, nearly everyone believes that the human fetus has essentially infinite worth, and an almost absolute right to live when a pregnant woman wants to give birth, then society and its laws regard the fetus as so valuable, that if someone were to kill that fetus, that person could be prosecuted for homicide. Only if a pregnant woman doesn't want to give birth do many people regard the fetus as worthless.

Now, does that make sense?

It doesn't seem to. Either a human fetus has worth, or it doesn't!

And this is moral argument #2:

On what moral grounds does the mother alone decide the fetus's worth?

---Pause for effect---

We certainly don't do that in regards to a newborn child, it is society, not the mother or the father that determines if the newborn child has worth and a right to live.

So, why should that be any different before the human being is born?

Why does one person, a mother, get to determine whether that being has any any right to live?

People respond by saying that a woman has the right to control her body. Now that is entirely correct! The problem here, however, is the fetus is not her body, it is in her body. It is a separate body.

And that is moral argument #3:

No one asks a pregnant woman "how's your body?" when asking about the fetus, people ask, "how's the baby?"

---Pause for effect---

Moral argument #4:

Virtually eveyone agrees the moment the baby comes out of the womb, killing the baby is murder.

But deliberately killing it a few months before birth is considered no more morally problematic than extracting a tooth!

How does that make sense?

---Pause for effect---

And finally, moral argument #5:

Aren't there instances in which just about everyone, even among those who are pro-choice, would acknowledge that an abortion might not be moral?

For example:

Would it be moral to abort a female fetus solely because the mother prefers boys to girls, as has happened millions of times in China and elsewhere?

And one more example:

Let's say science develops a method of determining whether a child in the womb is gay or straight. Would it be moral to kill a gay fetus because the mother didn't want a gay child?

---Pause for effect---

People may offer practical reasons not to criminalize all abortions. People may differ about when personhood begins and about the morality of abortion after rape or incest, but with regard to the vast majority of abortions-- those of healthy women aborting a healthy fetus-- let's be clear, most of these abortions just aren't moral.

Good societies survive people doing immoral things, but a good society cannot survive if it calls immoral things moral.

---End transcript---

I guess even a person on death row has some rights like no cruel and unusual punishment but what rights does a fetus have?

 

[NYcarbineer]

Good societies survive people doing immoral things, but a good society cannot survive if it calls immoral things moral.

---End transcript---

Does that mean our society has self-destructed simply by having deemed same sex marriage 'moral'?

 

[2aguy]

The fertilized human egg has no intrinsic value. If you insist that it does, for whatever reason,

then you must concede that the unfertilized human egg has intrinsic value, as then does the sperm cell.

Then where are you at, 'morally'?

No...fertilized the human life has begun, separate, the sperm and egg will never be a human life.

True but a fertilized egg is not a person.

When it is implanted in the womb and is growing it sure is.......

 

[2aguy]

[

Good societies survive people doing immoral things, but a good society cannot survive if it calls immoral things moral.

---End transcript---

All morality is a judgment call.

Ex:

Can a society survive if it calls a woman's right to choose to abort a fetus 'moral'?

Yes or no?

No. eventually all life will become expendable......

 

[2aguy]

If a woman chooses to have an abortion it's nobody else's business except her's and that of the doctor performing the procedure.

It is kinda the babies business......isn't it?

First trimester it is not a baby. Has no consciousness or thoughts. Reacts to stimuli in only a very primitive manner very late in the first trimester.

Left alone it will end up a full size human......once it starts growing it is a human.

 

[2aguy]

Good societies survive people doing immoral things, but a good society cannot survive if it calls immoral things moral.

---End transcript---

Does that mean our society has self-destructed simply by having deemed same sex marriage 'moral'?

Same sex marriage is not a life/death issue.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[

Good societies survive people doing immoral things, but a good society cannot survive if it calls immoral things moral.

---End transcript---

All morality is a judgment call.

Ex:

Can a society survive if it calls a woman's right to choose to abort a fetus 'moral'?

Yes or no?

No. eventually all life will become expendable......

What does that even mean?

jesus.

 

[2aguy]

[

Good societies survive people doing immoral things, but a good society cannot survive if it calls immoral things moral.

---End transcript---

All morality is a judgment call.

Ex:

Can a society survive if it calls a woman's right to choose to abort a fetus 'moral'?

Yes or no?

No. eventually all life will become expendable......

What does that even mean?

jesus.

When you dismiss the life of a human just because it is small, then it becomes easier to kill the baby in the 3rd trimester, then life becomes a matter of convenience....and you look at the elderly and ask...what do they give to society, keeping them alive is inconvenient.....and convenience is the standard, not the life itself....

 

[NYcarbineer]

If a woman chooses to have an abortion it's nobody else's business except her's and that of the doctor performing the procedure.

It is kinda the babies business......isn't it?

First trimester it is not a baby. Has no consciousness or thoughts. Reacts to stimuli in only a very primitive manner very late in the first trimester.

Left alone it will end up a full size human......once it starts growing it is a human.

Why start there? A human egg will grow into a full size human as long as it is not deprived of a sperm, for starters.

 

[2aguy]

If a woman chooses to have an abortion it's nobody else's business except her's and that of the doctor performing the procedure.

It is kinda the babies business......isn't it?

First trimester it is not a baby. Has no consciousness or thoughts. Reacts to stimuli in only a very primitive manner very late in the first trimester.

Left alone it will end up a full size human......once it starts growing it is a human.

Why start there? A human egg will grow into a full size human as long as it is not deprived of a sperm, for starters.

Sorry, an egg by itself is not life...it takes the man and the woman to create life.

 

[NYcarbineer]

[

Good societies survive people doing immoral things, but a good society cannot survive if it calls immoral things moral.

---End transcript---

All morality is a judgment call.

Ex:

Can a society survive if it calls a woman's right to choose to abort a fetus 'moral'?

Yes or no?

No. eventually all life will become expendable......

What does that even mean?

jesus.

When you dismiss the life of a human just because it is small, then it becomes easier to kill the baby in the 3rd trimester, then life becomes a matter of convenience....and you look at the elderly and ask...what do they give to society, keeping them alive is inconvenient.....and convenience is the standard, not the life itself....

So you think making all abortion the crime of murder is necessary to keep us from murdering old people?

lol

 

[NYcarbineer]

If a woman chooses to have an abortion it's nobody else's business except her's and that of the doctor performing the procedure.

It is kinda the babies business......isn't it?

First trimester it is not a baby. Has no consciousness or thoughts. Reacts to stimuli in only a very primitive manner very late in the first trimester.

Left alone it will end up a full size human......once it starts growing it is a human.

Why start there? A human egg will grow into a full size human as long as it is not deprived of a sperm, for starters.

Sorry, an egg by itself is not life...it takes the man and the woman to create life.

Only by your arbitrary determination, which bears no weight.

Catholic doctrine opposes birth control. Why do you suppose that is?

 

[Seawytch]

If a woman chooses to have an abortion it's nobody else's business except her's and that of the doctor performing the procedure.

It is kinda the babies business......isn't it?

First trimester it is not a baby. Has no consciousness or thoughts. Reacts to stimuli in only a very primitive manner very late in the first trimester.

Left alone it will end up a full size human......once it starts growing it is a human.

Why start there? A human egg will grow into a full size human as long as it is not deprived of a sperm, for starters.

Sorry, an egg by itself is not life...it takes the man and the woman to create life.

No, it takes a sperm and an egg to create mammals.

 

[2aguy]

[

Good societies survive people doing immoral things, but a good society cannot survive if it calls immoral things moral.

---End transcript---

All morality is a judgment call.

Ex:

Can a society survive if it calls a woman's right to choose to abort a fetus 'moral'?

Yes or no?

No. eventually all life will become expendable......

What does that even mean?

jesus.

When you dismiss the life of a human just because it is small, then it becomes easier to kill the baby in the 3rd trimester, then life becomes a matter of convenience....and you look at the elderly and ask...what do they give to society, keeping them alive is inconvenient.....and convenience is the standard, not the life itself....

So you think making all abortion the crime of murder is necessary to keep us from murdering old people?

lol

To keep us from murdering people of all ages......value the smallest human and you will tend to value all humans as a society.

 

[2aguy]

It is kinda the babies business......isn't it?

First trimester it is not a baby. Has no consciousness or thoughts. Reacts to stimuli in only a very primitive manner very late in the first trimester.

Left alone it will end up a full size human......once it starts growing it is a human.

Why start there? A human egg will grow into a full size human as long as it is not deprived of a sperm, for starters.

Sorry, an egg by itself is not life...it takes the man and the woman to create life.

Only by your arbitrary determination, which bears no weight.

Catholic doctrine opposes birth control. Why do you suppose that is?

Because they value life....and God expected us to create new life....

 

[NYcarbineer]

The Catholic Church says (most) birth control is immoral.

Our society as a whole overwhelmingly considers it moral.

Does that mean our society is doomed for having made the immoral moral, as is stated in the OP?

 

[NYcarbineer]

All morality is a judgment call.

Ex:

Can a society survive if it calls a woman's right to choose to abort a fetus 'moral'?

Yes or no?

No. eventually all life will become expendable......

What does that even mean?

jesus.

When you dismiss the life of a human just because it is small, then it becomes easier to kill the baby in the 3rd trimester, then life becomes a matter of convenience....and you look at the elderly and ask...what do they give to society, keeping them alive is inconvenient.....and convenience is the standard, not the life itself....

So you think making all abortion the crime of murder is necessary to keep us from murdering old people?

lol

To keep us from murdering people of all ages......value the smallest human and you will tend to value all humans as a society.

Normal people don't think like that, sorry.

 

[2aguy]

The Catholic Church says (most) birth control is immoral.

Our society as a whole overwhelmingly considers it moral.

Does that mean our society is doomed for having made the immoral moral, as is stated in the OP?

Birth control before conception is not moral or immoral, the catholic church has their teachings and you don't have to follow them even if you are a catholic......it is hard not to be impacted by abortion if you are the baby who is going to be aborted. devaluing human life because it is inconvenient will have long term consequences.....